Covid on Iona

[Son of Bare]

15 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

I am not looking at only European holidays, I'm afraid.  I have an extended Caribbean round trip, a Caribbean fly cruise,  an extended transatlantic and a Canaries.

 

Clearly you wish to play devil's advocate so in answer to your question as this is a new policy not stated to the passengers there is apparently no firm answer under current policies.  It could be that due to all this happening out of the blue and unexpectedly the cruise companies are meeting the costs, or it could be the passenger is. Either way no one knows and hence the question to the companies (and I have contacted the three I have cruises booked with and await their replies). I dont think I'm unreasonable expecting transparency. I have already said my piece on this element and will stick with it.

 

Regarding Staysure, when I spoke with them they were one of the companies who were unsure if their policy would definitely pay out on the cutting short element if you were sent into quarantine for Covid if you do not test positive.  Members of my family have their policies with them and have independently called with the scenario. They have all been told the same, no quarantine cover but curtailment on a case by case basis. In other words take your chance and hope the curtailment will be paid. I was directed to the specific clauses on Covid when I enquired not the curtailment section.

 

Interestingly I've taken a call from Cover For You an hour ago on behalf of my octogenarian aunt. They had taken the opportunity to speak directly to the underwriter and claims department.  Both said there would be no cover at all, neither quarantine or curtailment as the risk would be known by the purchaser.

I see. 

So when is a curtailment not a curtailment?

Answer in this instance. When it's been caused by Covid.

 

I said several pages back that if insurance underwriters tried to absolve themselves of this scenario when they would otherwise pay in full were it a different medical condition (I have history of exactly this as I have already stated, but to refresh minds, I was evacuated from Arcadia in 2019 suffering from serious heart issues and airlifted to Bergen hospital where I spent three weeks and Cover for All picked up the entirety of my partners expenses bill) then they are threading on very dodgy ground in my opinion.

Unless it specifically states in your policy that Covid excludes this kind of reimbursement I wouldn't overly worry that you wouldn't get your monies back.

 

Having said that, world travel is another thing. We too are booked on a 40 night round cruise to the Carribean in 12 months time and I share your concerns regards Covid on a trip like that. As for insuring that trip, i would hope by then there will have been enough conjecture of this sort so that insurance underwriters will have been forced to put in place a suitable global reimbursement package, albeit at a cost to the passenger.

[Interestedcruisefan]

27 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

 Both said there would be no cover at all, neither quarantine or curtailment as the risk would be known by the purchaser.

Lol

 

If there was going to be any cruisers in the world who were aware if this risk before now you would think they would be on this forum 

 

We've only got to even think about this risk between us after a lotion backwards and forwards debate

 

The same day you got that reply youve received a reply from a senior cruise employee who admits theyve never even considered this potential risk before !

 

Quite literally both the cruise companies and the insurance companies are making this up as they go along

 

 

[Interestedcruisefan]

3 hours ago, davecttr said:

Travelling in one of those company provided coaches puts you in a bubble. The drivers are meant to check for test results before coach boarding. Like the P&O incident this appears to down to the coach company.

 

Moral of the story, NEVER travel to the port in a type of transport where you can be considered to be in a bubble. Obviously a train does not apply.

Another moral is don't do any cruise organised shore excursions which involve sharing taxis, mini buses or coach transfers that will also put you in a bubble

 

As you will become a close contact in the same way

 

Similarly I assume organised cruise flights into a country will put you in a bubble with the rest of the flight

 

I hope they've got big quarantine hospitals waiting in Barbados for if that ever happens !

[Megabear2]

22 minutes ago, Son of Bare said:

So when is a curtailment not a curtailment?

Answer in this instance. When it's been caused by Covid.

Apparently so!  Following your post I called Staysure again and asked about curtailment in case I had been reading the policy wrong or misinformed on the telephone.  I was told exactly the same, case by case as it's not specific and could be classed as a known risk. I had hoped I was misinterpreting the policy but it seems not

[bbtablet]

7 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Apparently so!  Following your post I called Staysure again and asked about curtailment in case I had been reading the policy wrong or misinformed on the telephone.  I was told exactly the same, case by case as it's not specific and could be classed as a known risk. I had hoped I was misinterpreting the policy but it seems not

What is the definition of a known risk?

Are the insurance companies saying that known risks are not covered?

I thought that was what insurance was for - to pay out in the case of known risks actually crystalising?

If not, what does insurance cover?

Confused!

[Megabear2]

Previously most travel insurance policies offered no Covid cover at all. Gradually the policies have evolved but if you read the actual policy, not the precis, there are lots of references to known Covid risks and these are not covered. Quarantine is quite specifically covered in most.  Put simply back when Covid first erupted there were so many people being quarantined the companies most likely wouldn't have the funds to pay out.

 

Even pre Covid there were many exclusions for known risks, just the way of the world, but because the chances of us encountering them were tiny we most likely glossed over them.

 

The policies will continue to evolve hence Son of Bare is totally correct that in 12 months time the insurers may well have a policy covering this and a lot more risks but no doubt at a substantial cost to the purchaser.

[Dermotsgirl]

7 hours ago, Manx buoy said:

He also states in one post he’s on day 4 isolating then in a later post it’s day 2 I get the feeling somethings not quite right here not an expert opinion only mine😉

I took that to mean that it was 4 days from the start of his isolation, which started on the ship.  He was moved to the hotel after isolation has started, so day 2 of being in the hotel. Bear in mind that he's in a situation that is stressful  and upsetting, so I think it's understandable he might not be 100% clear 100% of the time.

 

I've done my due diligence on this, otherwise I would not have flagged it up for the forum.

 

He's not 100% negative - for example he praises the medical staff in Funchal. The tone of the posts sound right for someone in a confusing, upsetting situation.. I've checked back on his account, and there is no history of vexatious posting. His bio gives a link to a trade organisation which identifies him.

 

I'm not an expert either, just 25 years of sorting the wheat from the chaff on forums and social media!  It's up to the individual to decide for their selves, but the overall impression for me based on the posts and the profile of the account is that this is likely to be true. 

 

[watsonbeau]

Megabear2 has done an excellent fact finding job.

 

For some of us with limited pockets, the extra cost of a negative test companion having to be debarked /quarantined at own expense whilst the positive person is debarked etc with costs met (assuming suitable insurance), might be a deal breaker - the difference between go or no-go.
 

It would just be nice to know exactly what the situation is so as to make an informed decision.

[Dermotsgirl]

What I have learned from this thread so far. 

 

If you test positive, the ship will highly likely want to offload you asap, and your travel insurance will probably cover you.

 

If you do not test positive, but are identified as a close contact, such as being in a dining bubble or on a coach outing, there is a possibility  that you'll be unloaded at the next port and you probably aren't covered for this event by your travel insurance. who will look at each case individually.

 

I've always felt slightly worried by the idea of being offloaded overseas if either myself or my husband was ill. In the current situation, the risks of being offloaded have increased significantly. If I was offloaded, I would find it stressful, upsetting and worrying, even if I was 100% sure I was covered by travel insurance. I don't want to put myself in that situation. 

 

Therefore, I have to conclude that overseas cruising is not for me at the present time. 

[bobmon]

Whilst not wishing to further confuse things I would like to add that my wife and I have recently returned from a Marella repositioning cruise from Newcastle to Malaga. Whilst in Almeria all passengers had to do a 2 day Pre-Return to UK LFT test. Later that day the Captain announced that we would be delayed in leaving as 9 passengers had tested positive and the Spanish Authorities had insisted that they and their travelling companions had to be taken off the ship and transported to local Hospitals/Quarantine Hotels. It would appear therefore that the Cruise companies have no say in the matter.

[wowzz]

31 minutes ago, Dermotsgirl said:

What I have learned from this thread so far. 

 

If you test positive, the ship will highly likely want to offload you asap, and your travel insurance will probably cover you.

 

If you do not test positive, but are identified as a close contact, such as being in a dining bubble or on a coach outing, there is a possibility  that you'll be unloaded at the next port and you probably aren't covered for this event by your travel insurance. who will look at each case individually.

 

I've always felt slightly worried by the idea of being offloaded overseas if either myself or my husband was ill. In the current situation, the risks of being offloaded have increased significantly. If I was offloaded, I would find it stressful, upsetting and worrying, even if I was 100% sure I was covered by travel insurance. I don't want to put myself in that situation. 

 

Therefore, I have to conclude that overseas cruising is not for me at the present time. 

Is cruising any different from any other holiday though ? 

Say you are on a hotel break in Spain, and your partner falls ill and tests positive. Both of you would likely to be quarantined in a specifically designated hotel, and you would face the same issues with regards to any insurance claim. 

This whole issue is a minefield for all foreign travel, not just cruises. 

 

[Megabear2]

Yes, I think its pretty obvious now this is the policy and clearly the cruise companies are aware this will happen. Do you by any chance know how many actually went in total?

 

May I ask which date your cruise left/returned, please?  I am trying to collate a chart of the number of instances, where, how many involved etc to return to the insurers/my cruise lines. So far I've been told it's very rare, only happened once and conjecture.  The last few days seem to prove maybe not so rare as they suggest.

 

Thanks.

[Megabear2]

1 minute ago, wowzz said:

Is cruising any different from any other holiday though ? 

Say you are on a hotel break in Spain, and your partner falls ill and tests positive. Both of you would likely to be quarantined in a specifically designated hotel, and you would face the same issues with regards to any insurance claim. 

This whole issue is a minefield for all foreign travel, not just cruises. 

 

I totally agree. The earlier post about the blind lady was horrendous.  

[zap99]

21 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Is cruising any different from any other holiday though ? 

Say you are on a hotel break in Spain, and your partner falls ill and tests positive. Both of you would likely to be quarantined in a specifically designated hotel, and you would face the same issues with regards to any insurance claim. 

This whole issue is a minefield for all foreign travel, not just cruises. 

 

We are in Spain at the moment, returning on Friday. We will do a day 2 PCR test on our return. Although not required, or expected we did a NHS provided LFT today. It was negative. If it had been positive, what would we have done ?, or  have been expected to have done ?. Answers on a postcard.🤔

[Dermotsgirl]

30 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Is cruising any different from any other holiday though ? 

Say you are on a hotel break in Spain, and your partner falls ill and tests positive. Both of you would likely to be quarantined in a specifically designated hotel, and you would face the same issues with regards to any insurance claim. 

This whole issue is a minefield for all foreign travel, not just cruises. 

 

The main difference is that my means of transport home would be disappearing oven the horizon without me.  I've chosen not to fly anymore, so I simply wouldn't be on a hotel break in Spain in the first place! 

 

I'd fly home if there was no other choice, even if I found it stressful, but it would not be something I would really want to do. But it would cause significant problems for my friend who has a middle ear problem and flying gives her agonising ear ache. 

[Megabear2]

I assume you chose to do the test so if it was positive you could decide.  The decision by the UK Government to drop tests for those double vaccinated before departure to UK means only the day 2 would count.  You, as responsible citizens, would assumedly do the right thing or you would not have tested.  If one of you proved positive assumedly you knew before going there was a risk of quarantine. Hand on heart did you think that you would both have to quarantine if one test was negative and did you wonder how the cost would be met?

 

You weren't being made to take the test, just being responsible and sensible. Not everyone is, look how many posted on here they'd avoid ports where they need a test because it might spoil their holiday.

 

We've all seen the photographs of discarded positive tests outside festivals so know people aren't to be trusted, but that is our government's position so we go with it.

 

Doesn't take away the problem of being offloaded 3,000 miles from home with possibly no help when you actually thought you had bought insurance to get you that help.

[Interestedcruisefan]

45 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Is cruising any different from any other holiday though ? 

Say you are on a hotel break in Spain, and your partner falls ill and tests positive. Both of you would likely to be quarantined in a specifically designated hotel, and you would face the same issues with regards to any insurance claim. 

This whole issue is a minefield for all foreign travel, not just cruises. 

 

Way more likely to either be found positive on a cruise due to the need to test for some shore excursions and/or also be considered a close contact or part of a bubble  if anyone who does test positive 

 

On another non cruise holiday in reality you will need to have noticeable symptoms to even consider taking a test at which stage you might actually want  medical help and your partner might actually also want to avoid catching what you have

 

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Interestedcruisefan

[Rebjon]

7 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

Update:

 

1. Following the social media reports I spoke with my TA to ask if those in the trade had any knowledge of an incident. My TA is a personal friend of many years and she said she would put out for any information amongst her contacts. Her reply a day later states: 

 

"Apparently it was 3 couples tested positive and initially were going to isolate in their cabins but the port authorities said they had to quarantine

Still looking into if insurance will pay for partners those that tested are covered

P&O not been brilliant apparently"

 

I cannot comment on the last sentence as clearly it is just someone's opinion passed to my TA and not confirmed.

 

2. In the reply to me P&O appear to acknowledge the existence of the Cadiz "incident" but have skirted around it.  I have had another reply from the EO yesterday, again stating nothing:

 

"Thank you for your further email and I am sincerely sorry you are having such difficulty finding an insurance provider.

The majority of insurance policies are now explicitly stating they will cover medical expenses related to COVID. It is worth checking with your insurer if yours does not explicitly state this, but that would be unusual. Whilst some insurers provide 'Covid Cancellation cover' as an optional add on, this is not a requirement. Cover for medical expenses should you fall ill with Covid is, however, mandatory

P&O Cruises has partnered with Holiday Extras to offer appropriate, comprehensive travel insurance cover for our holidays.

All travel Insurance options offered through our partner Holiday Extras are appropriate for a cruise holiday and meet the £2m minimum medical expenses criteria.
We have chosen Holiday Extras (for UK Citizens only) as our preferred travel insurance provider and Holiday Extras can offer a comprehensive travel insurance policy that will cover you for cancellation, medical expenses, personal belongings, missed cruise departure, unused shore excursions, cabin confinement and cruse itinerary changes, as well as covering 97% of all customers with pre-existing medical conditions."

 

Again, stating the obvious, they are referring to "medical expenses" which we all know are covered by all the companies. There is still no mention of who covers offloading if your companion tests positive and you do not. Having become somewhat frustrated by these replies, I've decide to go for the jugular and sent the following:

 

"Thank you very much for your reply. There is some misunderstanding: I have not had difficulty in buying the insurance. Indeed my husband and I have intended to purchase the very policy you detailed.

 

However what they have stated quite clearly they will not cover quarantine ashore for ANY person who does not have a positive covid test. P&O are apparently removing companion passengers to those who test positive when their own tests are negative and these passengers are quarantined ashore in hotels.

 

If this is correct information then Holiday Extras and 11 other companies DO NOT COVER THE NEGATIVE TESTED PASSENGER. My question once more, who meets the costs of quarantine for these passengers please?

 

I am sorry to keep asking this but it is essential in my decision of whether to continue with my January and April cruises."

 

I await the next reply!

Keep on at them!

[Rebjon]

5 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

I'm not expecting anyone to insure them. I am expecting the cruise companies/insurance companies to tell people upfront that passengers may be removed from the ships in the event of possible infection of them and/or their travelling companion remaining negative and that the costs for any quarantine in most cases will not be covered by the insurances they are promoting.

 

Basically there's lots of clauses protecting the cruise companies in the booking terms and conditions as pointed out elsewhere by Molecrochip.  I think it's only fair that a "buyer beware" clause should be just as prominently displayed as the upselling of Covid travel insurance.

 

There are people on these threads for whom offloading would cause major stress and problems, myself included, surely it is not unreasonable for the cruise companies to put them in an informed position to make their personal decisions?

 

These cases are miniscule in comparison with the number sailing and therefore it would not be impossible to say in the very unlikely case of such and such. Most on here are reasonable, sensible people and would probably travel because the risk was affordable and not disastrous. Those with medical issues or work commitments may feel differently.

 

Sticking their heads in the sand and pretending it will go away is not a good idea for the companies.  Eventually someone will be caught out, not be able to pay and scream loudly to the press.  Other than that if the cruise lines are looking after these unfortunate people, well what great PR for them.

P&O sold foreign cruises whilst keeping their customers in the dark that they would offload them AND their non positive partners to a quarantine hotel if they tested positive. This is what is indefensible.

[Rebjon]

5 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

Perhaps I might be getting somewhere!  Latest reply from Executive Office:

 

Quote

 

Dear 

Thank you for your further correspondence and I am extremely sorry for mis - interpreting your email.  

And yes this is a very good question and I completely understand your worry - I am so sorry that I have never come across this before, but I will endeavour of course to find out for you.

Please leave this with me and we will get back to you once I have a comprehensive answer.

Warmest regards

 

Unquote 
 

How could the Executive Officer not have come across this before? Are they fit to hold the job?

[zap99]

24 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

I assume you chose to do the test so if it was positive you could decide.  The decision by the UK Government to drop tests for those double vaccinated before departure to UK means only the day 2 would count.  You, as responsible citizens, would assumedly do the right thing or you would not have tested.  If one of you proved positive assumedly you knew before going there was a risk of quarantine. Hand on heart did you think that you would both have to quarantine if one test was negative and did you wonder how the cost would be met?

 

You weren't being made to take the test, just being responsible and sensible. Not everyone is, look how many posted on here they'd avoid ports where they need a test because it might spoil their holiday.

 

We've all seen the photographs of discarded positive tests outside festivals so know people aren't to be trusted, but that is our government's position so we go with it.

 

Doesn't take away the problem of being offloaded 3,000 miles from home with possibly no help when you actually thought you had bought insurance to get you that help.

Thank you for you kind words and your faith in our public spiritedness. I am sure your faith is not misplaced ( fairly sure anyway ). Fortunately 10 days more in a decent hotel is a practical proposition for us. In all seriousness if we were positive It wouldn't feel right sneaking on a plane and potentially infecting 200+ folk.

[zap99]

27 minutes ago, Interestedcruisefan said:

Way more likely to either be found positive on a cruise due to the need to test for some shore excursions and/or also be considered a close contact or part of a bubble  if anyone who does test positive 

 

On another non cruise holiday in reality you will need to have noticeable symptoms to even consider taking a test at which stage you might actually want  medical help and your partner might actually also want to avoid catching what you have

 

 

We took a couple of tests with us . We do 2 a week at home anyway. We just like to know so we can take any action we feel is justified.

[Interestedcruisefan]

30 minutes ago, Rebjon said:

P&O sold foreign cruises whilst keeping their customers in the dark that they would offload them AND their non positive partners to a quarantine hotel if they tested positive. This is what is indefensible.

I don't think they've ever had the chance to think that far ahead tbh

 

And are any other cruise lines doing anything different? 

[Harry Peterson]

1 hour ago, wowzz said:

Is cruising any different from any other holiday though ? 

Say you are on a hotel break in Spain, and your partner falls ill and tests positive. Both of you would likely to be quarantined in a specifically designated hotel, and you would face the same issues with regards to any insurance claim. 

This whole issue is a minefield for all foreign travel, not just cruises. 

 

Cleethorpes it is then. Fish and chips on the pier at Papa’s. Test positive and they dump you off the end of the pier to quarantine. 

[terrierjohn]

5 hours ago, Son of Bare said:

In your previous post to which I replied.

'So i ask once again who meets the costs of quarantine for these (negatively tested) passengers please'.

 

Which is why I asked you who you thought should be bearing the cost (if you'll forgive the pun🤭).

 

Now you are saying you are not expecting anyone to insure them so I'm a kittle puzzled why you wanted the question answering in the first instance?

 

In my policy documents I have clauses which state the maximum figure Staysure will fork out for my holiday being cut short. With cruise cover plus this amounts to £2250 in my case. They will also pay a figure of upto 15k if my cruise is cut short.

This will be in addition to any medical expenses I expect (though I have not called Staysure to check this).

 

Not inconsiderable amounts for European cruises, and perhaps an answer in part to your question, for those with a similar policy?

Are you certain that Staysure would pay out anything to a non positive companion who elects to remain with their partner if they have to quarantine, since they would probably argue that YOU decided to cut your cruise short.