Athens port to airport; United changed our flight departure time.

[brucewg]

Initially posted in the Celebrity forum, it was suggested that I post in this forum, so this is a repost:

 

We will be arriving at the port in Athens at 6 AM (Constellation) on Saturday 6/3.  Our flight to Munich was to leave at 3 PM, but that flight was cancelled, and the only option offered is an 11 AM flight.  Obviously, we'll keep our luggage with us and arrange a private transfer.

 

Advice on what time to setup the pickup?  And odds of actually making the flight?  We are US based.  Any advice welcome.

 

Thanks in advance.

[FlyerTalker]

"only option offered"

 

Meaning you have cruiseline air and that is all they gave you?  Or is that the only option the airline provided?

 

The big issue is when you can actually get off the ship, not the scheduled arrival time.

 

[brucewg]

No, this was booked separate, not from the cruise line.  It was suggested to post my question in this forum, hopefully that was correct.

 

The 11 AM flight was the only one available from United (via Star Alliance partner).

 

Agreed - I don't know what to expect regarding when we 'll be able to disembark.  Looking for input on this.

 

Thanks,

Bruce

 

[Globaliser]

3 hours ago, brucewg said:

We will be arriving at the port in Athens at 6 AM (Constellation) on Saturday 6/3.  Our flight to Munich was to leave at 3 PM, but that flight was cancelled, and the only option offered is an 11 AM flight.

 

2 hours ago, brucewg said:

The 11 AM flight was the only one available from United (via Star Alliance partner).

 

It sounds implausible to me.

 

Assuming you are flying to San Francisco, and that you mean 3 June 2023, it wasn't hard to find these alternatives:

 

LH1751 Athens to Munich 1255-1430 (also sold as UA9527)

LH458 Munich to San Francisco 1620-1900 (also sold as UA8883)

 

LH1279 Athens to Frankfurt 1400-1605 (also sold as UA 9312)

UA927 Frankfurt to San Francisco 1730-2000 (also sold as LH9126)

 

You may have to push to secure either of these, because space is tight. But as you are an involuntary rebooking because one of your original flights was cancelled, it is worth pushing. I think that Regulation 261/2004 may have some part to play here, but I'm not an expert in how that works when a flight is cancelled a long time in advance.

[FlyerTalker]

3 hours ago, brucewg said:

No, this was booked separate, not from the cruise line.  It was suggested to post my question in this forum, hopefully that was correct.

 

The 11 AM flight was the only one available from United (via Star Alliance partner)

 

Is that Brussels at 11:05?

 

In addition to what Globaliser suggested, I wonder why you weren't given the 11:45 on United through Dulles.  Or 12:10 on Air Canada through Montreal.  Or 12:25 on United through Newark.  Or 1:10 on Air Canada through Toronto.

 

Only one available?  More like the only one the agent offered to you.

 

Of course, you had already researched all these other flights and you have already suggested them to UA.  Right?

 

 

 

[brucewg]

I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear.  We will depart Athens for Munich, spend 3 days there before returning to SFO (direct flight).  I initially booked a 3 PM flight to Munich, it was cancelled and the only available option was the 11 AM flight.

 

We are flying on an award ticket, booked by United and this leg (to Munich) is on a Star Alliance partner.  I do understand that United has to accept what their partner opens up for award space, and that's the issue.

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Globaliser]

1 hour ago, brucewg said:

We will depart Athens for Munich, spend 3 days there before returning to SFO (direct flight).  I initially booked a 3 PM flight to Munich, it was cancelled and the only available option was the 11 AM flight.

 

We are flying on an award ticket, booked by United and this leg (to Munich) is on a Star Alliance partner.  I do understand that United has to accept what their partner opens up for award space, and that's the issue.

 

On this basis, I've had another look at Athens-Munich on Saturday 3 June.

 

The Star Alliance flights are:

• LH1757 0600-0735
• A3802 0835-1015
• LH1751 1255-1430
• LH1753 1525-1700
• LH1755 1925-2100

 

There is no 1100 flight. But there is still a flight pretty close to 1500. So I'm a bit confused as to what's going on here.

 

In addition, I'm not sure that you do have to accept what LH (or A3) chooses to open up as award space if the problem is caused by that airline's cancellation. You should try pushing on the basis that you have rights under Article 5(1)(a) and Article 8(1)(b) of Regulation 261/2004 to be rebooked onto an alternative flight that day, even if there is no award space. Although you could choose to take a flight that's earlier than the originally scheduled time, by definition you would have no problem getting to a later flight (so either LH1753 or LH1755).

[hallasm]

Is your new booking on a direct flight from ATH to MUC? 

[brucewg]

Here's the new flight schedule below.  If you have any additional info on Reg 261 that would be helpful, I'm interested.  I will check on what you posted.  Thanks!

 

[LHT28]

Have you called the airline to tell them you are on a cruise  & it will be impossible to make that flight

[Globaliser]

6 hours ago, brucewg said:

Here's the new flight schedule below.

 

 

What was your original itinerary? Assuming that you were originally on a non-stop flight, I would regard this as unacceptable. It's almost faster to walk to Munich.

[CruiserBruce]

4 hours ago, Globaliser said:

 

What was your original itinerary? Assuming that you were originally on a non-stop flight, I would regard this as unacceptable. It's almost faster to walk to Munich.

Agree. Taking that short non-stop into a much longer one stop is pretty crazy, given the options available. 

[fbgd]

Cancel the miles ticket, get a refund and pay cash, no?

[6rugrats]

You were notified if this change more than two weeks before the flight, so you are not entitled to compensation under EU261. You have to discuss any changes w/ Mileage Plus because this was an award booking.  You can only rebook on flights with available award flights.  There are others on your date leaving later, they just aren’t nonstop.

Suggest you call MP and see if they can do anything, but they can’t open up availability on other airlines.  You could purchase a ticket and rede posit your miles.

[Globaliser]

4 hours ago, 6rugrats said:

You were notified if this change more than two weeks before the flight, so you are not entitled to compensation under EU261.

 

But 261/2004 is about more than compensation. Indeed, compensation is arguably the least important thing in all of its protections. One of the protections is the right to rebooking. That's why it may be worth pushing. But I think that it's important to know what the original itinerary was.

[6rugrats]

Yes, but OP has received plenty of notice; they can accept this flight, cancel and redeposit the mile, and then purchase a ticket from another carrier.   This is an award booking.  UA doesn’t fly this routing, so there has to be award availability on another Star Alliance carrier. OP stated original itinerary was ATH-MUC.

Edited March 30, 2023 by 6rugrats

[Globaliser]

13 hours ago, 6rugrats said:

Yes, but OP has received plenty of notice; they can accept this flight, cancel and redeposit the mile, and then purchase a ticket from another carrier.

 

But why should they, if they originally booked ATH-MUC non-stop, and if they have the legal right to be rebooked onto another ATH-MUC non-stop that suits their timing? If they have a legal right, it overrides any airline rules like "there has to be award availability". It arguably even overrides whether there is any availability at all on alternative flights (although that's not an argument that I'd be keen to push, unlike where the government requires the airline to carry someone even if the airline must bump commercial passengers).

 

At present, it's about €300 per person to buy another ticket on a non-stop.

 

Strictly, any obligation to rebook falls on the operating carrier. And at the moment we don't know which airline that was or what the original routing was.

[hallasm]

16 hours ago, Globaliser said:

But 261/2004 is about more than compensation.

Its common rules on compensation and assistance to passengers in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights

 

I do not think that Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 will help in this situation - it is only applicable in the event of cancellation in less than 14 days.
 

Article 5
In case of cancellation of a flight, the passengers concerned shall have the right to compensation by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 7, unless:
they are informed of the cancellation at least two weeks before the scheduled time of departure

Also

If they are informed of the cancellation between two weeks and seven days before the scheduled time of departure and are offered re-routing, allowing them to depart no more than two hours before the scheduled time of departure and to reach their final destination less than four hours after the scheduled time of arrival.

 

Link to eur-lex

[6rugrats]

OP states the mileage ticket was obtained from UA and original routing was ATH-MUC.  UA doesn't fly this routing; OP is on SN and LH Cityline.  UA can't open up award availability on other airlines.  If they want to purchase a ticket, at this time, Aegean is the least expensive at $209.

 They got more than 14 days notice, they they don't have a "legal right" to anything but a redeposit of their miles if they don't like the available options offered.  They can also keep checking and see if something better opens up; as of this writing, there is nothing.

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by 6rugrats

[Globaliser]

22 minutes ago, hallasm said:

I do not think that Regulation (EC) No 261/2004 will help in this situation - it is only applicable in the event of cancellation in less than 14 days.

 

I don't see why. The words of limitation that you've quoted only appear in Article 5(1)(c), which concerns the right to "compensation ... in accordance with Article 7". But compensation under Article 5(1)(c) and Article 7 is not what the OP really needs.

 

As I've already said, 261/2004 concerns more than compensation (which IMHO is a distracting sideshow from what 261/2004 is really about). Article 5 also gives you rights under Article 5(1)(a) and Article 5(1)(b). Article 5(1)(a) invokes Article 8 assistance rights, which are - at the passenger's choice - reimbursement, re-routing ASAP, or re-routing at a later date subject to availability. (Something here is probably what the OP needs.) Article 5(1)(b) invokes Article 9 duty of care rights.

 

Importantly, neither Article 5(1)(a) nor Article 5(1)(b) contain any words limiting these rights to cancellations with less than 14 days' notice.

 

10 minutes ago, 6rugrats said:

They got more than 14 days notice, they are not entitled to anything but a redeposit of their miles if they don't like the available options offered.

 

That's not necessarily correct, for the reasons above. In particular, the OP can't have an earlier flight foisted upon them, although they shouldn't reject a reasonable later flight.

 

The main unknown fact is that we don't know who the original operating airline was (nor have we actually had the original itinerary confirmed). That's the airline with the primary responsibility under 261/2004. And because the ticket wasn't issued by the operating airline, the OP may need to push to get better satisfaction than the usual non-261/2004 brush-off.

[hallasm]

18 minutes ago, Globaliser said:

Importantly, neither Article 5(1)(a) nor Article 5(1)(b) contain any words limiting these rights to cancellations with less than 14 days' notice.

Right - If cancellation more that 14 days before travel the airline can either offer reimbursement or re-routing - UA has offered re-routing. I'm sure that OP can cancel and get points and fee's reimbursed.

[Globaliser]

12 minutes ago, hallasm said:

Right - If cancellation more that 14 days before travel the airline can either offer reimbursement or re-routing - UA has offered re-routing. I'm sure that OP can cancel and get points and fee's reimbursed.

 

There's no doubt that the OP can cancel for a refund. The possible problem (the OP hasn't said) is that a cash ticket for a non-stop flight will be around €300 per person. That's quite a lot of money to pay out of one's own pocket to replace an award ticket on a non-stop flight (if that is what the OP originally had). So it may not be a good solution.

 

The operating airline can't comply with its obligations by offering re-routing on an earlier flight that isn't suitable for the passenger. A later flight would be fine, because by definition the passenger should already have been at the airport. But that doesn't apply to an earlier flight. So the offer that's been made wouldn't discharge any 261/2004 obligation to re-route.

 

And remember that it's the passenger's option whether to accept re-routing or reimbursement, not the airline's choice as to what to offer.

[brucewg]

Thanks for all the info.  You essentially have the situation correct - this is an award ticket, on a partner airline and there is no award space available later in the day.  And two tickets will be around $600 out of pocket. 

 

To make it even more "interesting", United has an excursion perk feature on award tickets where the middle leg (in our case Athens - Munich) can be added for zero miles.  At this point I'm checking United daily and will try again with Mileage Plus.  

 

The original route, that was cancelled was:

 

Athens to Brussels – SN 3246

Jun 3, 3:35 PM–5:55 PM

 

Brussels to Munich – SN 2647

Jun 3, 7:00 PM–8:20 PM

Edited March 31, 2023 by brucewg

[Globaliser]

On 3/30/2023 at 2:43 AM, brucewg said:

 

1 hour ago, brucewg said:

The original route, that was cancelled was:

 

Athens to Brussels – SN 3246

Jun 3, 3:35 PM–5:55 PM

 

Brussels to Munich – SN 2647

Jun 3, 7:00 PM–8:20 PM

 

So this establishes that the operating airline for 261/2004 purposes is SN, but also that SN could argue that there has been no cancellation as there has only been a (significant) schedule change.

 

Personally, I would therefore be citing 261/2004 to push for a re-route onto:

SN6524 ATH-BRU 1600-1820

SN7059 BRU-MUC 2045-2200

on the basis that these are both "SN flights" for fare rules purposes even though they are both operated by other airlines (A3 and LH respectively).

 

An alternative would be to take a 24-hour delay and fly at the originally-booked times a day later.

 

However, in this situation you're rather less likely to get any joy asking for a re-route onto another airline's non-stop flight. So you may want to seriously re-evaluate whether you really want to spend 6 or 7 hours making a journey that's actually only a 2½-hour flight, even though you could probably have spent less money on the non-stop flight if you'd booked it at the outset.

[LHT28]

2 hours ago, brucewg said:

The original route, that was cancelled was:

 

Athens to Brussels – SN 3246

Jun 3, 3:35 PM–5:55 PM

 

Brussels to Munich – SN 2647

Jun 3, 7:00 PM–8:20 PM

If you were able to get off the ship prior to 8 am you could make the  rescheduled  flights

You probably need to check in 2 hrs prior & not 3 hr as for International flights

The new flights  may still work  for you 

 Get off as early as you can  then just grab a taxi at the port  plan on 1hr travel time

or if the ship has a shuttle that leaves at 7ish go for it

JMO