Just a Point of View

[Eli_6]

On 4/16/2023 at 11:19 AM, Bostwick girl said:

Well, some older gentlemen actually got into a knock down drag out fight right by the doors as they were opening them! Took a few minutes for security to get there and both guys had gone to their tables. Guess they knew who they were because we saw security leading one out and talking to the other. My point is that it’s not always the young people drinking nor the number of sailing days that have a different clientele that cause these things. This was the last thing I’d have expected on this particular cruise! If you read some of the other forums occasionally, you’ll see Carnival isn’t the only cruise line that these things happen on.

Funnily enough, the two incidents of really bad behavior I experienced with other guests were both with older men.  Once, a seemingly able bodied man cut in front of a paraplegic (like literally controlling his wheelchair with his mouth) and my elderly Mom with a walker who had been waiting for some time for an elevator.  Like just walked up when they had been waiting 10+ minutes and walked on because he could walk briskly and they couldn't get quickly to the elevator. I said something to him about not cutting in line in front of the disabled and he then went OFF on me. Called me a "fat ass," started screaming, etc.  

 

Another time, I asked if people milling about in front of the dining room at brunch were waiting for a table (because I couldn't tell if they were in line or what) and this old man says, "What do you think we are doing genius?"  I responded something to the effect, "Well, I can't tell. That's why I am asking." He then made some general insults to my intelligence. My husband said to him, "Please don't speak to my wife that way."  The old man then stands up, starts bowing up at my husband (who is literally 20+ years younger than him and several inches taller) and gets in his face and says, "I will knock your teeth out!"  At that point, we all just turned and walked away. My son says after we were out of earshot from the man, "I don't think that old man needs to be trying to fight people. He might break a hip." The man was probably 75 or older.

 

After these two incidents, I no longer correct anyone and if someone says something nasty to me, I act like I don't hear it. People are so on edge lately and it isn't always the people you would think who seem to be on the very of losing it. 

[Eli_6]

15 hours ago, Bandman said:

 

People seem more rude and agitated everywhere now days. This might be an accurate statement or I might just be turning into an old fuddy-duddy… 

No, I absolutely think that is the case. I have noticed it, too.  Seems to have gotten so much worse after Covid.

[Squirreladd]

I can tell you this is carnivals fault. This is from review of several incidents on board their ships. 

 

1. As a whole carnival is non-confrontational. Their staff don't enforce the small rules (I.E. you can't save deck chairs) this means people see it as the green light that rules are okay to be broken. It starts small.

 

2. Carnivals on ship security are jokes. They undertrained, under equipped and have no idea what they are doing. Because all they have is a set of wrist restraints their only option whena fight breaks out is to go hands on, something most of them clearly where not trained to do. Furthermore many of them are physically small  (a 6'4" drunk man being told by a 5' woman to calm down will not end well.) Part of why bouncers are large is the intimidation factor. People should think "if I get into a fight on a cruise ..." Carnival should have, collapsible battons at the very least and tasers if possible. A show of force reassures people of safety and imtimidates the bad people.

 

3. Carnival is horrible at responding to incidents. Many incidents have long build ups in which guest spend several minutes shouting and arguing. The moment two or more guest become confrontational security should be dispatched, they should not be showing up after blows. Get there isolate the guest, mediate and give security tools to deescalate it. (Got a guy about beat a guy up for spilling his drink? Security should be able to give him a drink at a bar further from the other person. This turns a hostile situation friendly and separate the people. 

 

 

My little rant, I worked 8 years in a secured environment and many of carnival's mistakes can be easily overcame and would make everyone happy. It may seem heavy handed but with proper de-escalation techniques and deployment it will drastically reduce incidents.

 

[Elaine5715]

1 hour ago, Squirreladd said:

I can tell you this is carnivals fault. This is from review of several incidents on board their ships. 

 

1. As a whole carnival is non-confrontational. Their staff don't enforce the small rules (I.E. you can't save deck chairs) this means people see it as the green light that rules are okay to be broken. It starts small.

 

2. Carnivals on ship security are jokes. They undertrained, under equipped and have no idea what they are doing. Because all they have is a set of wrist restraints their only option whena fight breaks out is to go hands on, something most of them clearly where not trained to do. Furthermore many of them are physically small  (a 6'4" drunk man being told by a 5' woman to calm down will not end well.) Part of why bouncers are large is the intimidation factor. People should think "if I get into a fight on a cruise ..." Carnival should have, collapsible battons at the very least and tasers if possible. A show of force reassures people of safety and imtimidates the bad people.

 

3. Carnival is horrible at responding to incidents. Many incidents have long build ups in which guest spend several minutes shouting and arguing. The moment two or more guest become confrontational security should be dispatched, they should not be showing up after blows. Get there isolate the guest, mediate and give security tools to deescalate it. (Got a guy about beat a guy up for spilling his drink? Security should be able to give him a drink at a bar further from the other person. This turns a hostile situation friendly and separate the people. 

 

 

My little rant, I worked 8 years in a secured environment and many of carnival's mistakes can be easily overcame and would make everyone happy. It may seem heavy handed but with proper de-escalation techniques and deployment it will drastically reduce incidents.

 

Those are assumptions and generalizations.  There are some sizable security personnel on board but size is about using that mass as intimation or as a human roadblock.  Some of the fiercest bar bouncers I knew (in my younger days) were scrawny and not afraid of throwing or getting a punch "jump if you are felling froggy" BUT that was male on male physical contact.  None would hit a woman, no what how many times she swung, they would restrain her until the police arrived and they would use at least two officers to secure her.  Carnival Security Officers are hesitant to physically handle guests, especially semi-clothed  females since there is little to grab without risking a sexual assault accusation.  Combatant female guests are aware that they have an advantage so something to get their attention without contact would go a long ways in stopping incidents.  

There is one cruise line known for hiring ex military security, I don't remember which but I do remember guests calling them "unfriendly" because they didn't smile.  

Crew are non confrontational but heck, the number of posters here who flaunt their ignoring the posted rules and get huffy when called out are too numerous to count.   

[Elaine5715]

2 hours ago, Eli_6 said:

I have more often than not just encountered inconsiderate, rude and entitled people rather than actual "unruly" people.  And, fwiw, it isn't specific to Carnival as I have encountered it in many places. I feel like a lot of people forgot how to behave in public during the Covid shut down.  

I think the worst places for entitled guests are airports and Disney World.  

[spleenstomper]

6 hours ago, Tapi said:

I do agree with you that other mainstream cruise lines have experienced poorly behaved guests, but I believe that the key difference is that, on Carnival, it has become more prevalent; a byproduct of the “fun” atmosphere that they promote. To make things worse, it gets magnified by social media. 

 

I’m one of the “lucky ones” who did get to witness a fight during a Carnival cruise. It was a full on brawl in the middle of the atrium on the Sensation. It was BAD. 20-30 people got in it, with fists and glasses flying everywhere, We had to run for cover. Never have I ever witnessed something like that on a cruise before or after. 

 

I have a dear friend who, for years, was a die hard Carnival fan. He video messaged me from his last Carnival cruise a few months ago, showing the out of control behavior unfolding in real time. He concluded by saying that he can no longer in good conscience continue sailing on Carnival or recommend it to others. That to me was sobering. 
 

I’ve been sailing other cruise lines for the last few years and none of my upcoming cruises (in my signature) are on Carnival either. I’m getting older. I’ve been cruising on lines like Holland America and Celebrity 😱 . Not as lively as Carnival, but they have become more appealing to me. Carnival continues to have a very special place in my heart though. I think that they still provide a solid product, specially with their newest and latest ships. But they need to keep working on cleaning up their image and suppressing poor behavior. 

I like HAL. It’s so calm and quiet. Lol 

[spleenstomper]

2 hours ago, Eli_6 said:

No, I absolutely think that is the case. I have noticed it, too.  Seems to have gotten so much worse after Covid.

I think repeated bouts of Covid have damaged some people’s brains. Not excusing them, but yeah it’s noticeable 

[spleenstomper]

27 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

I think the worst places for entitled guests are airports and Disney World.  

Disney world for me= weed smell and domestic violence. Not related to each other. And I’d rather take the weed smell. 

[BlerkOne]

2 hours ago, Squirreladd said:

I can tell you this is carnivals fault. This is from review of several incidents on board their ships. 

 

1. As a whole carnival is non-confrontational. Their staff don't enforce the small rules (I.E. you can't save deck chairs) this means people see it as the green light that rules are okay to be broken. It starts small.

It's the fun ship, not the military. The problem isn't the staff, the problem is society and entitled people.

 

2 hours ago, Squirreladd said:

 

2. Carnivals on ship security are jokes. They undertrained, under equipped and have no idea what they are doing. Because all they have is a set of wrist restraints their only option whena fight breaks out is to go hands on, something most of them clearly where not trained to do. Furthermore many of them are physically small  (a 6'4" drunk man being told by a 5' woman to calm down will not end well.) Part of why bouncers are large is the intimidation factor. People should think "if I get into a fight on a cruise ..." Carnival should have, collapsible battons at the very least and tasers if possible. A show of force reassures people of safety and imtimidates the bad people.

Absurd on many levels. Ambulance chasers would be all over. Neanderthal thinking.

 

2 hours ago, Squirreladd said:

 

3. Carnival is horrible at responding to incidents. Many incidents have long build ups in which guest spend several minutes shouting and arguing. The moment two or more guest become confrontational security should be dispatched, they should not be showing up after blows. Get there isolate the guest, mediate and give security tools to deescalate it. (Got a guy about beat a guy up for spilling his drink? Security should be able to give him a drink at a bar further from the other person. This turns a hostile situation friendly and separate the people. 

 

Absurd. Cut them off. Then put them off.

 

 

[Tapi]

2 hours ago, spleenstomper said:

I like HAL. It’s so calm and quiet. Lol 

LOL, yes, it is blissfully calm and quiet. I couldn’t believe how quiet the pool deck is a lot of times. You could hear a pin drop. Fun loving people would jump overboard.  😂

[peteandpris]

I am a hugh fan of Carnival. 

[Elaine5715]

6 hours ago, spleenstomper said:

Disney world for me= weed smell and domestic violence. Not related to each other. And I’d rather take the weed smell. 

?  How do you get domestic violence from Disney World entitled guests?  I have also never smell weed on WDW property.  

[spleenstomper]

38 minutes ago, Elaine5715 said:

?  How do you get domestic violence from Disney World entitled guests?  I have also never smell weed on WDW property.  

I witnessed it: DV at all start sports hotel on grounds 

Edited April 19, 2023 by spleenstomper

[mz-s]

7 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

Those are assumptions and generalizations.  There are some sizable security personnel on board but size is about using that mass as intimation or as a human roadblock.  Some of the fiercest bar bouncers I knew (in my younger days) were scrawny and not afraid of throwing or getting a punch "jump if you are felling froggy" BUT that was male on male physical contact.  None would hit a woman, no what how many times she swung, they would restrain her until the police arrived and they would use at least two officers to secure her.  Carnival Security Officers are hesitant to physically handle guests, especially semi-clothed  females since there is little to grab without risking a sexual assault accusation.  Combatant female guests are aware that they have an advantage so something to get their attention without contact would go a long ways in stopping incidents.  

There is one cruise line known for hiring ex military security, I don't remember which but I do remember guests calling them "unfriendly" because they didn't smile.  

Crew are non confrontational but heck, the number of posters here who flaunt their ignoring the posted rules and get huffy when called out are too numerous to count.   

 

Security crew of Mardi Gras per JH on March 10 2023.

 

 

Judge for yourself.

 

 

[Tapi]

19 minutes ago, mz-s said:

 

Security crew of Mardi Gras per JH on March 10 2023.

 

Judge for yourself.

I count 6 people that could potentially break up a fight 

[Elaine5715]

2 hours ago, mz-s said:

 

Security crew of Mardi Gras per JH on March 10 2023.

 

 

Judge for yourself.

 

 

The Security Chief on Spirit was built like the Rock but small doesn't mean unable.  One does need to be willing to get physical and throw hands.  

[Elaine5715]

2 hours ago, spleenstomper said:

I witnessed it: DV at all start sports hotel on grounds 

Once?  I have been on property 2-3 a year  and never seen violence.  Nor have I seen the social media reports of drunks stumbling Drinking Around The World.  But I have sworn to continue the search 

[Squirreladd]

10 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

It's the fun ship, not the military. The problem isn't the staff, the problem is society and entitled people.

 

Absurd on many levels. Ambulance chasers would be all over. Neanderthal thinking.

 

 

Easier to train and equip your staff for the change in society then change society.

 

Carnival has has many cameras on board their ships. If security needs to go hands on, camera will clear them. Unfortunately this is not neanderthal thinking but reality. 

11 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

Those are assumptions and generalizations.  There are some sizable security personnel on board but size is about using that mass as intimation or as a human roadblock.  Some of the fiercest bar bouncers I knew (in my younger days) were scrawny and not afraid of throwing or getting a punch "jump if you are felling froggy" BUT that was male on male physical contact.  None would hit a woman, no what how many times she swung, they would restrain her until the police arrived and they would use at least two officers to secure her. Carnival Security Officers are hesitant to physically handle guests, especially semi-clothed  females since there is little to grab without risking a sexual assault accusation.  Combatant female guests are aware that they have an advantage so something to get their attention without contact would go a long ways in stopping incidents.  

There is one cruise line known for hiring ex military security, I don't remember which but I do remember guests calling them "unfriendly" because they didn't smile.  

Crew are non confrontational but heck, the number of posters here who flaunt their ignoring the posted rules and get huffy when called out are too numerous to count.   

Technique is a must. Knowing how to properly control a combative person needs to be trained to security. It can be done safely. It's easier with men, women it's a whole different matter. Ifyou are on camera breaking up physically combative females and you brush up against their breast you are covered as honestly doing your job. The problem is so much of that crap escalates directly to violence. 

 

lastly security should smile but have the skills and ability to secure their space. If they can't do that they are worthless.

[BlerkOne]

26 minutes ago, Squirreladd said:

Easier to train and equip your staff for the change in society then change society.

 

Carnival has has many cameras on board their ships. If security needs to go hands on, camera will clear them. Unfortunately this is not neanderthal thinking but reality. 

Technique is a must. Knowing how to properly control a combative person needs to be trained to security. It can be done safely. It's easier with men, women it's a whole different matter. Ifyou are on camera breaking up physically combative females and you brush up against their breast you are covered as honestly doing your job. The problem is so much of that crap escalates directly to violence. 

 

lastly security should smile but have the skills and ability to secure their space. If they can't do that they are worthless.

You don't need size to control someone. Or weapons. You don't need cameras, everybody has them. I think the Carnival approach has it right.

 

Somehow I can't see Mickey tasing someone at Disneyland. Unlike on land, you can't call for backup from the police. You are limited to what you have 

[sammee]

On 4/16/2023 at 4:08 PM, spleenstomper said:

I remember once a cruise line was supposed to go from maybe Boston or NYC to Bahamas but hurricane so they went to cold Canada with everyone in shorts lol

Carnival Pride, going from Baltimore, great entertainment reading the comments while that was going down. They ported, on the Jersey side, maybe Liberty, and gave the remaining passengers free ferry service to and from NYC. Some of them took their luggage and rented a car to go back to Baltimore and pick up their own car. I had a last minute offer on that one, but declined thankfully.

[Cruise till you drop]

Every cruise line has their brand image that has been developed over many years and not easy to change.  We’ve travelled on Carnival about 15 times and have seen both good and bad behaviors.  So what ends up sticking in our mind are the drunken ones, not the behaved ones.

 

And as we’re older and don’t drink that much, we tend to steer away from Carnivel.

 

Plus Carnival has a lot of families, including young kids, so now that we’re older, we generally don’t want to sail with kids so we don’t sail Carnival 

 

Those may not be fair judgements but again, those perceptions are what mold our brand images

[Guppy746]

On 4/16/2023 at 6:43 AM, jimbo5544 said:

Or maybe you do not have jaded view sunglasses on.

Or maybe they are not 'genteel' enough to have noticed. 😬

[Guppy746]

I have only been on two cruises (I'm booked for next year on the Mardi Gras though) so I probably don't have enough experience to  really weigh in on this, but I'll give my personal observations on my admittedly limited experience. One cruise was a 7 day on the Disney Fantasy just before covid started and the other was a 7 day on the Carnival Legend out of Baltimore last november. All I can say is that the Disney cruise had the rudest, most entitled, selfish, unhappy and unfriendly people, while the people on my Legend cruise were friendly, happy and lovely. On the Disney cruise, grown women pushed my then 4 year old out of the way to get to talk to princesses first and on the Legend we had many people come up to my kid and give her rubber duckies and trophies they'd just won at trivia. The Disney people may have paid at least 3 times as much for their cruise than their carnival counterparts, but they certainly were not a better class of people. If the happy, friendly and fun people from my Legend cruise are considered 'boorish' then I think I'd prefer to hang out with the boors.