No more classical music?!

[mcrcruiser]

25 minutes ago, ldtr said:

Bingo.

 

Cruise are the perfect example of operating a business with a number of constraints. Once a ship is built its size is a limit,  if you give additional resources to one group (public space, service resources, etc) it mean their allocation of a constrained resource gets larger, the amount left for everyone else gets smaller. Most noticeable when one has gone through the change. Newer passengers will not notice because to them that is just the way that it was. On Celebrity Michael's club on the M and S class ships was often used for the string trio/duo performances. Not heavily utilized. But was missed when they turned it into the Suite lounge

 

Less noticeable on some ships than others depending upon exactly how they implemented their approach.

So true about Celebrity & Michaels club

[Hlitner]

18 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

We love ro see a ship within a ship with HAL ,willing to pay the premium if it truly works

It "ain't" going to happen in my lifetime!  Why?  A true "ship within a ship" must be designed into the ship, before it is built.  Trying to convert an existing ship (Celebrity has done this on some vessels) is simply a hyrid product that leaved many unhappy.   Consider that on NCL and MSC, the ship within a ship is physically a separate part of the vessel.  In the case of the newer MSC ships, it is a large area on the upper decks near the bow.  The "enclave" is secured from the "masses" by electronic doors that only open with the proper card.  

 

HAL has zero, none, nada, new builds in the next few years.  So, there is no near future opportunity for HAL to develop their own ship within a ship model.   Speaking of new builds, consider that MSC continues to add 1-2 new ships a year plus another ship a year (for 6 years) for their new Explora Journey line.  Princess is getting new builds, Carnival is getting new builds, RCI is getting new builds, Seabourn just added 2 new ships, Celebrity continues to add new builds.  HAL?  Nothing.  Wonder why!

 

Hank

[curmudgeon98]

I have zero interest in the "ship within a ship" concept.  Either you keep the whole environment within my expectations or I'll move on to some other line/vacation.  That's why I don't take my grandkids to Disney or other similar amusement parks these days: they started selling "line cutting" privileges in various forms and degraded the general experience.

 

We did our first cruise on HAL only a few years ago, and even at that time it seemed to be a line without a clear sense of identity.  They try to be a line for "traditionalists", but to fill their ships they have to cut prices and degrade the product because their passenger demographic doesn't spend enough on ancillary revenue generators like the casino,       

[ExpatBride]

26 minutes ago, curmudgeon98 said:

I have zero interest in the "ship within a ship" concept.  Either you keep the whole environment within my expectations or I'll move on to some other line/vacation.  
 

They try to be a line for "traditionalists", but to fill their ships they have to cut prices and degrade the product because their passenger demographic doesn't spend enough on ancillary revenue generators like the casino,       

The "traditional" experience is what endeared me to HAL. I haven't sailed since 2016 because... life.  But I fear what awaits me in a couple weeks' time because it seems like the experience I've been "selling" to my SO no longer exists. We'll have a good time regardless (that's how we roll), but I'm doubtful about whether I'll book with them again.

I also have zero interest in the ship-within-a-ship concept. Offer a luxury experience or don't. This isn't 1910, and people aren't (for the most part) crossing the Atlantic on these ships. My first experience with this nonsense were a group of "Haven" snobs on NCL late at night in a "steerage" bar. They kept demanding XYZ because "we're Haven." If that's what Haven is like, I'd rather sail in hell. They were truly obnoxious... so obnoxious that I remember them now even 8 years later. No thanks!

Offer a decent experience at a fair (for PAX and the cruise line) price and be done with it. NCL wasn't a great fit for me, which is why I moved to HAL. I'm disappointed to read about all of the recent changes to the HAL experience, and I hope there's still enough to keep me interested.

[katmu]

24 minutes ago, ExpatBride said:

The "traditional" experience is what endeared me to HAL. I haven't sailed since 2016 because... life.  But I fear what awaits me in a couple weeks' time because it seems like the experience I've been "selling" to my SO no longer exists. We'll have a good time regardless (that's how we roll), but I'm doubtful about whether I'll book with them again.

I also have zero interest in the ship-within-a-ship concept. Offer a luxury experience or don't. This isn't 1910, and people aren't (for the most part) crossing the Atlantic on these ships. My first experience with this nonsense were a group of "Haven" snobs on NCL late at night in a "steerage" bar. They kept demanding XYZ because "we're Haven." If that's what Haven is like, I'd rather sail in hell. They were truly obnoxious... so obnoxious that I remember them now even 8 years later. No thanks!

Offer a decent experience at a fair (for PAX and the cruise line) price and be done with it. NCL wasn't a great fit for me, which is why I moved to HAL. I'm disappointed to read about all of the recent changes to the HAL experience, and I hope there's still enough to keep me interested.

 

I’m another person who has no interest in the ship-within-a-ship concept.  I generally book for the itinerary and the dates, as I’m somewhat limited with when I can sail currently due to my job.  I have 2 cruises in the first half of 2024 booked after not having cruised since 2019.  The first will be on the new Sun Princess, booked mostly as the dates and itinerary worked for me.  I am a little nervous about the amount of suite dedicated space but it’s a pretty port intensive itinerary so I’m sure I’ll manage just fine.  The 2nd cruise is a multi-generational Alaska cruise on HAL.  This one I really want to be special not in an over the top way, but because I’m not sure if all three generations will be able to travel together again.

 

Given everything the cruise lines have been through since the pandemic, and with CCL’s debt load in particular I’m not expecting the same experience from 5 or 10 years ago.   I think it is possible to attract younger cruisers, while not forgetting your loyal customer base.  Because other lines are jumping on a particular bandwagon doesn’t mean that HAL should automatically follow suit.  HAL needs to find their competitive advantage.  I think there is a market for the things that HAL has done well in the past - unique itineraries, strong music offerings, adult oriented, midsize ships, traditional.  HAL does need to work on their marketing strategy IMO.

[Guest ldtr]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

It "ain't" going to happen in my lifetime!  Why?  A true "ship within a ship" must be designed into the ship, before it is built.  Trying to convert an existing ship (Celebrity has done this on some vessels) is simply a hyrid product that leaved many unhappy.   Consider that on NCL and MSC, the ship within a ship is physically a separate part of the vessel.  In the case of the newer MSC ships, it is a large area on the upper decks near the bow.  The "enclave" is secured from the "masses" by electronic doors that only open with the proper card.  

 

HAL has zero, none, nada, new builds in the next few years.  So, there is no near future opportunity for HAL to develop their own ship within a ship model.   Speaking of new builds, consider that MSC continues to add 1-2 new ships a year plus another ship a year (for 6 years) for their new Explora Journey line.  Princess is getting new builds, Carnival is getting new builds, RCI is getting new builds, Seabourn just added 2 new ships, Celebrity continues to add new builds.  HAL?  Nothing.  Wonder why!

 

Hank

Check the build history and the capacity added for each line over each cruise lines recent history. HAL just completed a string the 3 new builds and increased capacity. Prior to this group their order separation was 5 years. One would have expected based upon the age of their capacity, more of their capacity is newer than Princess or Carnival. Princess needed orders due to the age of the grand class and grand sub class ships. I did a spreadsheet about this and posted it in a different topic. since I am traveling do not have access to it but the post is out there.

 

Bottom line is based upon their capacity distribution over age of ships the next expected builds would have been a new series starting in 2026 without Covid intervening.

 

Last I have there might be ships transferred into HAL from one of CCL other brands. The logical source would be Aida that has ships in the right size range in the 10 to 14 year age range. Aida has just added a lot of capacity with new large ships. If they work out for the brand it would make sense to add capacity there with large ships, and move some of their excess capacity in small ships 2000 size. to HAL.

[Guest ldtr]

Found some of the numbers in an old post. For a comparison

 

55% of Princesses Capacity is 15 years and  older,  that compares to 46% of HALs capacity in ships 15 years and older.

 

35% of HAL capacity is in ships 7 years old or less, compared to 30% of Princess being in ships 7 years old or newer.

 

 

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, ldtr said:

Found some of the numbers in an old post. For a comparison

 

55% of Princesses Capacity is 15 years and  older,  that compares to 46% of HALs capacity in ships 15 years and older.

 

35% of HAL capacity is in ships 7 years old or less, compared to 30% of Princess being in ships 7 years old or newer.

 

 

You deal in dreams and hope while I simply look at facts  Princess is adding two new 4300 ships (LNG powered) due in early 2024 and 2025.  Carnival has a new ship coming this year, RCI, Celebrity, MSC, Disney, Virgin, Cunard , Explora Journeys, and some others all have new ships being built between now and 2027.  HAL?  NOTHING!  Just your speculation that it might become the new dumping ground for older ships.  Consider that no American cruise line has refitted an older ship since HAL did it back in 2002 (Prinsendam).  

 

These days, most older ships are going to the scrap heap since refitting/upgrading is expensive and much more difficult to finance than a new build.   European companies have had some luck with retreads..with CMV being a great example. But CMV is now gone...bankrupt!

 

We do wonder about Princess.  My best guess is that with the two huge ships joining their fleet in the next 2 years, they will likely retire the Coral and Island!   While their Grand Class ships are starting to get a bit old, those 7 vessels were somewhat ahead of their time and still fit into the current market.  Unlike the older HAL ships, those Grand Class Princess ships have a large number of balcony cabins (a plus these days), a large atrium, and a modern feel.  Having cruised on Princess 32 times, we are still torn between their newer Royal Class and the older Grand Class.  If they were to get rid of the Coral and Island, they would be a 15 ship line with their smallest vessel having a capacity in excess of 3000.  

 

You might be able to make the case that both the Coral and Island Princess would be a good fit for HAL(96,000 ton...1900 passenger).  But again, I think CCL financials work against them refurbishing older ships.   We have heard some speculation (by Princess fans) that those two ships might eventually be spun off to a Princess-Australia subsidiary.  Princess does have a good toe hold in the Australian market.

 

Hank

 

 

[philliesphan]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Consider that no American cruise line has refitted an older ship since HAL did it back in 2002 (Prinsendam).  

Not accurate unless you don't consider Oceania and Azamara to be American cruise lines.  Both lines refitted older ships from other lines more recently than 2002, most recently in 2022.

[Guest ldtr]

4 hours ago, Hlitner said:

You deal in dreams and hope while I simply look at facts  Princess is adding two new 4300 ships (LNG powered) due in early 2024 and 2025.  Carnival has a new ship coming this year, RCI, Celebrity, MSC, Disney, Virgin, Cunard , Explora Journeys, and some others all have new ships being built between now and 2027.  HAL?  NOTHING!  Just your speculation that it might become the new dumping ground for older ships.  Consider that no American cruise line has refitted an older ship since HAL did it back in 2002 (Prinsendam).  

 

These days, most older ships are going to the scrap heap since refitting/upgrading is expensive and much more difficult to finance than a new build.   European companies have had some luck with retreads..with CMV being a great example. But CMV is now gone...bankrupt!

 

We do wonder about Princess.  My best guess is that with the two huge ships joining their fleet in the next 2 years, they will likely retire the Coral and Island!   While their Grand Class ships are starting to get a bit old, those 7 vessels were somewhat ahead of their time and still fit into the current market.  Unlike the older HAL ships, those Grand Class Princess ships have a large number of balcony cabins (a plus these days), a large atrium, and a modern feel.  Having cruised on Princess 32 times, we are still torn between their newer Royal Class and the older Grand Class.  If they were to get rid of the Coral and Island, they would be a 15 ship line with their smallest vessel having a capacity in excess of 3000.  

 

You might be able to make the case that both the Coral and Island Princess would be a good fit for HAL(96,000 ton...1900 passenger).  But again, I think CCL financials work against them refurbishing older ships.   We have heard some speculation (by Princess fans) that those two ships might eventually be spun off to a Princess-Australia subsidiary.  Princess does have a good toe hold in the Australian market.

 

Hank

 

 

What you call facts are only those that you feel impact negatively on HAL and ignore the others.

 

Fact Princess has 55 percent of its fleet capacity ol  at 15 or older . As such it needs to replace that capacity in the next 7 years or so just to maintain current size. This is even after all of the recent Royal class builds. 

 

Fact only 30 percent of Princess capacity is less than 8 years old.

 

Fact 35% of HAL capacity is less than 8 years old.

 

Fact 46% of HALs fleet is at 15 years or older.

 

Fact even after Princess adds the Star and Sun and retires some of the older ships, the HAL fleet will still have less average age on its fleet so less urgency on construction. New builds would have been expected to gave been to.start around 26.

 

Coral and Island will not come to HAL. Very unlikely that they would transfer to p&o either. As the two smallest ships remaining they are Princesses 2 world cruise ships. Princess will run them until they age out (Coral world cruise starting in Australia, and Island out of US). Similar path as the Pacific. Use them until they age out then sell.

 

When the Sun and Star come on line it is likely the Grand and one other of the older Grand Class family (family including the various sub classes) will be retired.

 

The Coral and Island will be kept for a few more years yet because of the role they have. When they go away the diamond and Sapphire at 2600 and 2 years newer will probably take over that role.

 

I am not claiming HAL will be a dumping ground for old ships. If they move a couple over from Aida they have ships in the 2000 range. They have 4 ships from 11 years to 14 years old holding from 2000 to 2500 passengers. Which could be good candidates to move. Especially since Aida added a bunch of new capacity with 4000 to 5000 passenger ships including a couple on the same platform as the new Princess ships, the new p&o ships and the Carnival new builds. Note the pattern the new orders for CCL lines are all on the same large platform. Not exactly a fit for HAL.  If CCL decided that HAL needed more capacity in the short term before their next ship type is designed basically would have been in 2026 if past patterns had been followed and taking the age of current HAL capacity, they will need to pull them from somewhere and the Aida ships are the only ones with both the size range and are new enough to make the move worthwhile.

 

Someone else actually mentioned someone HAL indicating that a ship would be added. My mention is if that is true then the only logical source within CCL brands is Aida. Nothing else fits the size and the age that would be needed. With their recent large ship it is also one line that might also have surplus capacity and could afford moving out a ship or two. 

 

CCL has stated that most likely they will not be placing orders before 2026, which happens to fit when one would have expected the next HAL ship order to be placed. Princess will also need more ship orders then or face losing capacity.

Edited July 15, 2023 by ldtr

[mcrcruiser]

10 hours ago, Hlitner said:

It "ain't" going to happen in my lifetime!  Why?  A true "ship within a ship" must be designed into the ship, before it is built.  Trying to convert an existing ship (Celebrity has done this on some vessels) is simply a hyrid product that leaved many unhappy.   Consider that on NCL and MSC, the ship within a ship is physically a separate part of the vessel.  In the case of the newer MSC ships, it is a large area on the upper decks near the bow.  The "enclave" is secured from the "masses" by electronic doors that only open with the proper card.  

 

HAL has zero, none, nada, new builds in the next few years.  So, there is no near future opportunity for HAL to develop their own ship within a ship model.   Speaking of new builds, consider that MSC continues to add 1-2 new ships a year plus another ship a year (for 6 years) for their new Explora Journey line.  Princess is getting new builds, Carnival is getting new builds, RCI is getting new builds, Seabourn just added 2 new ships, Celebrity continues to add new builds.  HAL?  Nothing.  Wonder why!

 

Hank

Hank makes a k\lot of sense .Wish we were not confined to not being able to fly .DW has a inner ear problem  not fixable  .If like in the past we were able to fly ,We be sailing  in Europe   for the most part

cliff

[Hlitner]

5 hours ago, mcrcruiser said:

Hank makes a k\lot of sense .Wish we were not confined to not being able to fly .DW has a inner ear problem  not fixable  .If like in the past we were able to fly ,We be sailing  in Europe   for the most part

cliff

If you happen to be retired and have lots of time, Europe is doable without flying 🙂  We have no physical issue that keeps us off planes, but, would rather cruise than fly.  We will often use cruises to get us to Europe in the spring, and sometimes we will book another cruise back to the USA (such as on the Queen Mary 2).  Living on the east coast is helpful, but given enough time one could do it from anywhere in North America.  

 

Hank

[AV8rix]

Wow!  Talk about thread creep.  I've only been trying to watch this one because I'm a lover of classical music and am hoping for news about what's happening now related to that topic.

[Hlitner]

8 minutes ago, AV8rix said:

Wow!  Talk about thread creep.  I've only been trying to watch this one because I'm a lover of classical music and am hoping for news about what's happening now related to that topic.

I think that topic is dead....just like classical music seems to be dead on HAL!  Darn shame.  When walking past a dark LCS on the Westerdam I could not help but think, "what a waste of space" and "I miss hearing the music."  Since HAL seems to have no intention of bringing back LCS (other than an infrequent show in the main theater), I wonder how they will repurpose the LCS venues.  Perhaps they will install a decent loud speaker and pipe-in classical music from the Metropolitan Opera.  

 

Hank

[cruisemom42]

22 hours ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

The Lincoln Center group were the best classical group I've ever seen on a cruise. But HAL could spend some money on recruiting good musicians and it still would probably be less expensive than licensing a name. 

 

I agree it is possible. But it is more likely that HAL will recruit less talented musicians without any oversight from Lincoln Center. 

 

IMO it is less easy to hide lack of talent when playing classical music than with some other types of music. But even with those other types, HAL does not have a great track record of finding talented musicians. Anyone remember the HAL Cats? 

 

The garage band I played with in high school was more talented than the "easy listening" quartet brought aboard Westerdam in April to play in the Ocean Bar....

 

 

[3rdGenCunarder]

5 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

IMO it is less easy to hide lack of talent when playing classical music than with some other types of music. But even with those other types, HAL does not have a great track record of finding talented musicians. Anyone remember the HAL Cats? 

 

 

Ugh! Thank you SOOO much for dredging up a memory I thought I had truly buried in the back of my mind!!! The HAL Cats did what a lot of rock and rock-ish groups do, substitute volume for quality. 

[OlsSalt]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Perhaps they will install a decent loud speaker and pipe-in classical music from the Metropolitan Opera.  

 

Hank

 

 

Tone deaf response, says it all. Metropolitan Opera presents operas, both historic and modern. Opera is its own musical genre.

[3rdGenCunarder]

1 hour ago, OlsSalt said:

 

 

Tone deaf response, says it all. Metropolitan Opera presents operas, both historic and modern. Opera is its own musical genre.

 

(I think Hank's comment was sarcasm, not a real suggestion.)

 

And opera isn't amplified!! That's one of the joys of opera, no tech between the singers and the audience. Just trained voices and a space with good acoustics.

 

I think LC were the only musicians on board not amplified. 

[mcrcruiser]

6 hours ago, Hlitner said:

If you happen to be retired and have lots of time, Europe is doable without flying 🙂  We have no physical issue that keeps us off planes, but, would rather cruise than fly.  We will often use cruises to get us to Europe in the spring, and sometimes we will book another cruise back to the USA (such as on the Queen Mary 2).  Living on the east coast is helpful, but given enough time one could do it from anywhere in North America.  

 

Hank

Hank yes it is possible with a 6 months type horizon of time .We could do the Panama Canal in the Spring  usually March . Then travel on a trans Atlantic cruise  ,come back in the Fall & repo with a Panama Canal cruise  .It is not that hold us back ,it is  age & medical now . I encourage all people to do as much as they can in travel while they can still do it /We even have relatives living i on the Atlantic  coast in florida to visit

Cliff

[mcrcruiser]

46 minutes ago, ldtr said:

Princess and Celebrity have largely gone the string duo route. Usually Ukrainian musicians that do quite well with classical as well as some more modern pieces. Would not object to they being added to each HAL cruise

Would be nice if management would spring for the cost .It seems to me that  they have a tight budget to meet these days in all departments

[Hlitner]

42 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

Hank yes it is possible with a 6 months type horizon of time .We could do the Panama Canal in the Spring  usually March . Then travel on a trans Atlantic cruise  ,come back in the Fall & repo with a Panama Canal cruise  .It is not that hold us back ,it is  age & medical now . I encourage all people to do as much as they can in travel while they can still do it /We even have relatives living i on the Atlantic  coast in florida to visit

Cliff

We are trying to live,.,as you encourage!  While we have some age related issues, our health still allows for lots of travel (knock on wood or a bulkhead).   The big problem with spending an entire summer in Europe is the 90 day visit (every 6 months) imposed by the Schengen countries.  That was a common bar-talk topic on our recent Westerdam cruise since some of our cruising friends spend a lot of time in Europe.  One couple (on the HAL cruise) was planning to spend a significant amount of time in Albania, just to escape the Schengen requirement.  Another was going to escape Schengen to the UK.

 

Hank

[Destiny0315]

19 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Consider that no American cruise line has refitted an older ship since HAL did it back in 2002 (Prinsendam).  

2013: Carnival Destiny(1996) refitted and became the Carnival Sunshine

2019: Carnival Triumph(1999) refitted and became the Carnival Sunrise

2021: Carnival Victory(2000) refitted and became the Carnival Radiance

[katmu]

50 minutes ago, mcrcruiser said:

Just wondering now from the wording & psitioning of certain posts if HAL has not imported posters on this board?  Seems to me that there are some rather strong anti  truths about this cruise line  & that could be HAL paid  pirates .Just a thought

Could you be specific about which posts and posters you are referring to?

[Guest ldtr]

2 hours ago, katmu said:

Could you be specific about which posts and posters you are referring to?

I would expect they are trying to implicat  anyone that posts anything positive about HAL.

 

Because clearly any one that posts anything positive or a potential explanation for something must be getting paid to do so. 

[mcrcruiser]

16 minutes ago, ldtr said:

I would expect they are trying to implicat  anyone that posts anything positive about HAL.

 

Because clearly any one that posts anything positive or a potential explanation for something must be getting paid to do so. 

Truth is thereare both positives & negatives .Pre pandemic there were more positives & less negatives now it is reverse comparing HAL to other major cruise lines & what for the same cruise they offer.for one Celebrity  hands down beats HAL in the food dept ,entertainment dept & even price point dept  .how do we know this is because we have exact same itinerary cruises on both lines. Celebrity prices in their standard type cabins inside, outside & balcony are actually lower priced . 

 

 Celebrity has shows with 17 performers & 10 piece bands .They have music  venues in several bars as well . you need to try Celebrity to see  your self

Edited July 15, 2023 by mcrcruiser