Response from Princess to email re changes

[rosevew]

14 hours ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

Yes, we each have two credits.  Princess will be getting an extra 8.50 plus 18% from us for the agnolotti I will eat.  The servers are not going to be hovering over us to see who eats what.  We are entitled to 4 prix fix meals and on top of this we will pay for 4 entrees.  Princess will be getting extra money from us with each visit.  I am not expecting any problems with this at all.

Besides, post 634 stated that sharing was allowed on board.

Are you saying that there will be a gratuity charge on the pizza?

[kiwimum]

8 minutes ago, rosevew said:

Are you saying that there will be a gratuity charge on the pizza?

Gratuity is included in the charge per item.

[kywildcatfanone]

31 minutes ago, B_A_H said:

You folks can't see the forest through the trees.  None of this has to do with "old" or "new" cruisers.  It's all about revenue per guest. The cruise lines through their "package" initiatives and "add-on" pricing are attempting to drive higher revenue per guest. 

 

Someone buying Premier at $80 per day on a 7 day cruise is guaranteeing Princess $560 in onboard revenue.  Multiply that by 2,000 passengers and you have over $1M per sailing.  The additional add-on and a'la carte charges are meant to:  A) drive people to purchase packages, or B) try to get as much revenue out of people without them as possible while they are onboard.  And every single mainstream cruise line is following the same formula.  Listen to one of their earnings calls.  It's all about revenue per guest. 

 

You know who the cruise lines don't want?  People that book the lowest category inside cabin and drink free beverages at the buffet and MDR and don't spend a nickel they don't absolutely have to.  And that person can be an Elite or a first time cruiser. So if that's you, no cruise line wants you.  

 

"Deals" going forward will be limited to sailings the cruise lines are having trouble filling.  And those discounts will be on cruise fare in order to get the ships full.  And why would they discount the cruise fare to fill the ship?  So that there's more warm bodies to drive onboard spending. This is all about revenue management, loyalty be damned. 

 

While demand is this high and alternatives to cruises (EG: all inclusives, hotels) are taking price increases as fast as they can what we're seeing is the new normal.  And running to NCL or another RCI or CCL brand is no escape.  

 

 

I've said similar in this thread and others.  However, I think people who buy packages feel that is it s a good value to them either by $ value or just relaxation value as some have mentioned.  Either way, that is their choice.  I'm one of those Elite penny pinchers who uses OBC to pay gratuities and wifi, and bring on all the water and soda I will drink so I'm not paying onboard prices. It's staggering how much money they make off those packages. 

 

However I see it as a positive for me those that buy the packages, as it's likely to help keep the cruise price somewhat lower to entice more to book, and then upsell the packages.  So it's win for me, and the cruise line.

 

[voljeep]

$300+/- with PLUS50 on a 5 day cruise

NO obc , but Premier on a 5 day cruise.

somehow we will survive

[kywildcatfanone]

Big thread on the Celebrity board right now.  Apparently RC is changing their "All Inclusive" to exclude gratuities.  

Carnival has to be watching....

[B_A_H]

20 minutes ago, kywildcatfanone said:

Big thread on the Celebrity board right now.  Apparently RC is changing their "All Inclusive" to exclude gratuities.  

Carnival has to be watching....

That brings up an interesting question.  What's the bigger issue to folks here:  1) that Princess changed their packages to include less at lower tiers and are charging a'la carte for things that used to be free?, or 2) that they didn't grandfather people in when they changed the packages?

 

I ask because if Celebrity is saying All Inclusive is less inclusive starting for purchases after [insert date] that would be very different than saying for sailings beginning [insert date] even if someone's package included tips when they bought it.  I'm guess it's the former because the latter is quite brazen. Although, they degraded Aqua Class with sailings effective [insert date] so I guess anything's possible.

 

It's almost like the cruise lines have tasted blood and want more.  They'll keep on squeezing until they see future bookings fall off.  That happens on a delay so it'll be interesting what they do in response if they squeeze too hard.  They are all riding high right now because travel is still chugging along and demand remains high.  There are lots of dark economic clouds on the horizon though and if they cause demand to drop all of us aggrieved may have the last laugh after all. 

 

 

[kywildcatfanone]

9 minutes ago, B_A_H said:

That brings up an interesting question.  What's the bigger issue to folks here:  1) that Princess changed their packages to include less at lower tiers and are charging a'la carte for things that used to be free?, or 2) that they didn't grandfather people in when they changed the packages?

 

I ask because if Celebrity is saying All Inclusive is less inclusive starting for purchases after [insert date] that would be very different than saying for sailings beginning [insert date] even if someone's package included tips when they bought it.  I'm guess it's the former because the latter is quite brazen. Although, they degraded Aqua Class with sailings effective [insert date] so I guess anything's possible.

 

It's almost like the cruise lines have tasted blood and want more.  They'll keep on squeezing until they see future bookings fall off.  That happens on a delay so it'll be interesting what they do in response if they squeeze too hard.  They are all riding high right now because travel is still chugging along and demand remains high.  There are lots of dark economic clouds on the horizon though and if they cause demand to drop all of us aggrieved may have the last laugh after all. 

 

 

I would think generally people are, and should be, more frustrated that they are changing what's included for folks already paid without grandfathered them in.  Would be me if that happened to me.

Cruise lines are definitely squeezing every dollar from your pocket they can right now while demand supports it, and I agree with you, major economic trouble is coming.

[CruizinSusan70]

4 hours ago, kywildcatfanone said:

Big thread on the Celebrity board right now.  Apparently RC is changing their "All Inclusive" to exclude gratuities.  

Carnival has to be watching....

Why would Carnival care?  They don't have packages.  Now, if you're referring to a change by Celebrity and implying that Princess is watching, then maybe you're right.  But Carnival and RCI offer zero packages, but of course Princess and Celebrity do.  Also, the packages on NCL and MSC do not include gratuities.

Princess, HAL and Celebrity are the only mainline cruise lines that include gratuities with the other package components of WiFi and drinks.

[CruizinSusan70]

4 hours ago, Snaxmuppet said:

No problem with that providing they drop the "all inclusive" price by a similar amount. Gratuities are always optional so it just might mean that you have to explicitly give gratuity rather than have to ask them to be removed.

 

More likely it is a stealth way of increasing the price.

Gratuities are usually optional for those from non tipping cultures and those that are beyond frugal on this side of the pond.  Wish they were just rolled into the fare so they couldn't get pulled.

Edited August 29, 2023 by CruizinSusan70

[Steelers36]

22 minutes ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

Why would Carnival care?  They don't have packages.  Now, if you're referring to a change by Celebrity and implying that Princess is watching, then maybe you're right.  But Carnival and RCI offer zero packages, but of course Princess and Celebrity do.  Also, the packages on NCL and MSC do not include gratuities.

Princess, HAL and Celebrity are the only mainline cruise lines that include gratuities with the other package components of WiFi and drinks.

If PCL were to remove CA from Plus and Premier fare packages, and maintain current price, I do fear for the tip pool because many of those guests may decide to give the middle finger to PCL and not pay the CA.  (If it is outside the package, it becomes removable).  

[CruizinSusan70]

18 minutes ago, Steelers36 said:

If PCL were to remove CA from Plus and Premier fare packages, and maintain current price, I do fear for the tip pool because many of those guests may decide to give the middle finger to PCL and not pay the CA.  (If it is outside the package, it becomes removable).  

One thing that I would love to have be made public, but of course would never happen is this.  What percentage of the tips that are pulled are from non tipping cultures versus the beyond frugal cheapskates from this side of the pond.

[Guest Snaxmuppet]

I had forgotten that you cannot remove CA from packages. Perhaps not including them in packages would give people the option as to who to tip... like in the old days. 

 

I see manually tipping as a much better option than included CA. It incentivises crew to go above and beyond. It gives satisfaction to the passenger that rewards great service. It gives satisfaction to the passenger as it does NOT reward bad service.

 

I would much prefer manual tipping for everyone. Gratuities should be just that... extra for crew that make an effort. It shouldn't be automatic as it then just becomes a subsidy for crew salary saving the cruise line a bit. It also just becomes part of the cruise fare as it is now. It might go to the crew but it isn't a gratuity in any way that I understand it.

[Tigrou]

4 hours ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

Why would Carnival care?  They don't have packages.  Now, if you're referring to a change by Celebrity and implying that Princess is watching, then maybe you're right.  But Carnival and RCI offer zero packages, but of course Princess and Celebrity do.  Also, the packages on NCL and MSC do not include gratuities.

Princess, HAL and Celebrity are the only mainline cruise lines that include gratuities with the other package components of WiFi and drinks.

 

HAL do not include Crew Appreciation in their 'Have It All' package except as a special deal.  HIA includes specialty dining, shore excursion credit, beverage package and wifi.  Currently they are offering 'Early booking bonus HIA' which does include Crew Appreciation along with upgraded beverage and wifi but this is only for certain cruises.  

Edited August 29, 2023 by Tigrou

[CruizinSusan70]

2 minutes ago, Tigrou said:

 

By 'Carnival', I understood @kywildcatfanone to mean the overall parent company, not Carnival the cruise line - so Carnival the corporation watching Royal Caribbean the corporation.

 

HAL do not include Crew Appreciation in their 'Have It All' package except as a special deal.  HIA includes specialty dining, shore excursion credit, beverage package and wifi.  Currently they are offering 'Early booking bonus HIA' which does include Crew Appreciation along with upgraded beverage and wifi but this is only for certain cruises.  

I thought that too, by the third line in my posting, but it really wouldn't be the corp versus the corp since it comes down to Princess vs Celebrity.  Since I've never sailed on HAL, it now looks like their package contains the same parameters as NCL.  Thought I had gotten an email from them in the past that grats were included.  So, I guess it's now down to two lines then, Princess and X.

I personally hope that Princess does not pull the gratuities from the package unless they are going to make it mandatory that everyone pays them and they roll the cost into the fare.  It irks me to no end when people pull their grats.  Have seen it primarily on Carnival and the two times we sailed MSC, Never thought that it would be on Princess, but then I forgot about the percentage of cruisers that sail on Princess from non tipping cultures, unlike those on Carnival.  It goes without saying that the line on the last sea day on MSC wraps around the guest services area multiple times with the gratuity pullers.

[CruizinSusan70]

32 minutes ago, Snaxmuppet said:

I had forgotten that you cannot remove CA from packages. Perhaps not including them in packages would give people the option as to who to tip... like in the old days. 

 

I see manually tipping as a much better option than included CA. It incentivises crew to go above and beyond. It gives satisfaction to the passenger that rewards great service. It gives satisfaction to the passenger as it does NOT reward bad service.

 

I would much prefer manual tipping for everyone. Gratuities should be just that... extra for crew that make an effort. It shouldn't be automatic as it then just becomes a subsidy for crew salary saving the cruise line a bit. It also just becomes part of the cruise fare as it is now. It might go to the crew but it isn't a gratuity in any way that I understand it.

But the manual tipping would only be with the crew you interact with personally.  What about the behind the scenes people or what about all the workers that clear the tables in the buffet?  They all currently get their little slice of the pie and if the cruise lines went back to the envelope method, those peripheral people would be shut out.

[teenieleek]

19 hours ago, kywildcatfanone said:

I've said similar in this thread and others.  However, I think people who buy packages feel that is it s a good value to them either by $ value or just relaxation value as some have mentioned.  Either way, that is their choice.  I'm one of those Elite penny pinchers who uses OBC to pay gratuities and wifi, and bring on all the water and soda I will drink so I'm not paying onboard prices. It's staggering how much money they make off those packages. 

 

However I see it as a positive for me those that buy the packages, as it's likely to help keep the cruise price somewhat lower to entice more to book, and then upsell the packages.  So it's win for me, and the cruise line.

 

You haul water on board? In single-use plastic bottles?  Why? You can refill your own bottle at the buffet.  Our last trip (different line) had no bottled water either free or for sale (environmental considerations); there was a carafe in the cabin refilled twice a day and as much as you could drink served with meals.  A very popular policy.  I wish Princess did likewise, the waste must be enormous.

[Moustique]

2 minutes ago, teenieleek said:

You haul water on board? In single-use plastic bottles?  Why? You can refill your own bottle at the buffet.  Our last trip (different line) had no bottled water either free or for sale (environmental considerations); there was a carafe in the cabin refilled twice a day and as much as you could drink served with meals.  A very popular policy.  I wish Princess did likewise, the waste must be enormous.

I could not agree more.  First time for us with a package (got it almost for free).  We always travel with our own refillable bottles.  On this cruise, we get plastic water bottle to refill our own bottle.  What a waste.  What is Princess waiting for to do like some major resort hotels, provide refillable bottle for each guest and install water station all over the ship.  A little gesture for the environment and one less thing to do for the bar staff.

[Moustique]

What is upsetting me about the changes?  The way it was implemented without thinking and/or managing the impacts.  Yes, cruises paid in full should have been grandfathered.  But also, these items should have been taken in consideration:

1. Same number of included dining no matter the number of days of the cruise makes no sense.

2. Maybe allocate the number of dining credit the same way as the free mini bar set-up.  One for each segment (no matter how the cruises were booked)

3. How to retain a valuable benefit for Elite cruisers (loyalty is still valued in the tourism industry; air line, hotels etc.). 

4. How to continue to make suite client feel « special ».  What is the benefit of free happy hour for exemple when you have a package?  Should they really pay for room service if they dont have a package?

5. Insure that cruisers can take advantage of the services they are now paying for as part of their package.  We are currently on the Diamond.  Was able to place an order with my medallion only once.  Always a problem with location.  Before I would have been ok with it.  Now that Princess is telling me I paid $14 for the service through my package, I am upset to have to get up to get my drink.  On the Diamond, there is only 1 casual dining venue.  Before August 12th, you had to pay to eat at the Sushi restaurant. Now, a lot of cruisers got told they paid for it as part of their package.  They want to take advantage of it.  Now, if you want to eat there, who have to wait in line a minimum of 45 minutes.  If you prefer lunch in the dining room, expect to wait up to 30 minutes.  Is it because you have to pay for room service?  I dont know but it is unacceptable.  This is cruise 30 for us with Princess and I never experience something like this.

 

It is not the fault of the staff. They are great in the circonstances.  But you can tell they are feeling bad about how this is impacting the clients.

 

Maybe somewhere in the Finance department they thought about all of this and said the hell with it.  The 80% rule.  Time will tell is this is good or bad for the business.  Many of us older cruiser that travel during the shoulder season, take long cruises or take advantage of last minute deals that allow the ship to cruise full are not important for the corporation.  This is ok with me.  We are also a group with a lot of flexibility on how we spend our travel $$$.  

 

I am not saying I wont travel with Princess anymore.  But I will decide if it makes sense for me while taking in consideration these changes.  Right now, other way of travel sound a lot more attractive than before.  But we just book a 21 days repositioning cruises for this October, including the Premier package.  Why?  Because Princess is making us a great deal.  So I guess, somewhere at head office, someone still wants our business!

 

 

 

 

 

[Aulanis]

I cant understand why Princess have not said from cruises booked after  ????  the changes will apply.

 

This all happened before  in Nov/Dec 22  when they changed the packages and as far as I can tell they changed the when it will happen date.      Could be however that they since changed some wording

in the contract  so that they are on a better legal footing now?

 

There are a lot of posts on CC from that earlier change.

[Tigrou]

I find the reference to 'non tipping cultures' quite amusing, suspecting that perhaps it's a euphemism for 'anywhere other than North America'. 🙂

 

The inference is often - but I do understand, not always - that those from 'non tipping cultures' are frugal, penny pinchers, downright mean and nasty people, take your choice of (another) euphemism.  In reality, those 'non tipping cultures' generally have a system whereby workers are paid a decent, minimum wage for the job they do.  As long as they do that job as contracted, they don't have to tug their forelock to every customer in the hope of making up their money to a 'living wage'.  It is, after all, 2023 not 1623.

 

Tips/gratuities/appreciation are then just that - an acknowledgement from the customer that the worker has exceeded the expectations of their contracted role.

 

When I visit other countries I follow local custom on tipping.  However, a cruise ship isn't another country and I can appreciate why some passengers from 'non tipping cultures' don't understand the whole automatic Crew Appreciation system, particularly if that ship has sailed from their own 'non tipping culture' area of the world.

 

Of the various cruise lines I've sailed with, I think P&O UK have got it right.  They include the service charge in the cruise fare so all workers are paid a fixed wage and not reliant on tips to bring it to a decent level.  Passengers can then tip for 'over and above' service if they wish, thereby directly rewarding whoever has provided it.

 

 

[nnzz]

37 minutes ago, Moustique said:

What is upsetting me about the changes?  The way it was implemented without thinking and/or managing the impacts.  Yes, cruises paid in full should have been grandfathered.  But also, these items should have been taken in consideration:

1. Same number of included dining no matter the number of days of the cruise makes no sense.

2. Maybe allocate the number of dining credit the same way as the free mini bar set-up.  One for each segment (no matter how the cruises were booked)

3. How to retain a valuable benefit for Elite cruisers (loyalty is still valued in the tourism industry; air line, hotels etc.). 

4. How to continue to make suite client feel « special ».  What is the benefit of free happy hour for exemple when you have a package?  Should they really pay for room service if they dont have a package?

5. Insure that cruisers can take advantage of the services they are now paying for as part of their package.  We are currently on the Diamond.  Was able to place an order with my medallion only once.  Always a problem with location.  Before I would have been ok with it.  Now that Princess is telling me I paid $14 for the service through my package, I am upset to have to get up to get my drink.  On the Diamond, there is only 1 casual dining venue.  Before August 12th, you had to pay to eat at the Sushi restaurant. Now, a lot of cruisers got told they paid for it as part of their package.  They want to take advantage of it.  Now, if you want to eat there, who have to wait in line a minimum of 45 minutes.  If you prefer lunch in the dining room, expect to wait up to 30 minutes.  Is it because you have to pay for room service?  I dont know but it is unacceptable.  This is cruise 30 for us with Princess and I never experience something like this.

 

It is not the fault of the staff. They are great in the circonstances.  But you can tell they are feeling bad about how this is impacting the clients.

 

Maybe somewhere in the Finance department they thought about all of this and said the hell with it.  The 80% rule.  Time will tell is this is good or bad for the business.  Many of us older cruiser that travel during the shoulder season, take long cruises or take advantage of last minute deals that allow the ship to cruise full are not important for the corporation.  This is ok with me.  We are also a group with a lot of flexibility on how we spend our travel $$$.  

 

I am not saying I wont travel with Princess anymore.  But I will decide if it makes sense for me while taking in consideration these changes.  Right now, other way of travel sound a lot more attractive than before.  But we just book a 21 days repositioning cruises for this October, including the Premier package.  Why?  Because Princess is making us a great deal.  So I guess, somewhere at head office, someone still wants our business!

 

 

 

 

 

The new list of suite benefits now list "OceanNow delivery and crew call chat for whatever you need

from food to service"  -  doesn't sound like they expect suites to pay for any room service.

[Guest Snaxmuppet]

1 hour ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

But the manual tipping would only be with the crew you interact with personally.  What about the behind the scenes people or what about all the workers that clear the tables in the buffet?  They all currently get their little slice of the pie and if the cruise lines went back to the envelope method, those peripheral people would be shut out.

This then shows why this is not a gratuity. How can it be a gratuity when those behind-the-scenes people don't interact with the passengers. A gratuity to me is a voluntary extra payment for good service. You can only give good service if you interact. As it stands, CA is not a gratuity in the sense that I understand it. It is a crew wages subsidy and it gets the cruise line off the hook for paying poor wages to crew.

 

What should happen IMO is that all crew should get a decent wages regardless of whether they are passenger-facing or not. Then, the passenger-facing ones can have the possibility to earn extra by going beyond what is expected.

[Guest Snaxmuppet]

I have wondered what the point of suite happy hour was given that many of those in suites will have drinks included in their package. It is never a benefit to me as I always take the package.

[kywildcatfanone]

2 hours ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

By 'Carnival', I understood @kywildcatfanone to mean the overall parent company, not Carnival the cruise line - so Carnival the corporation watching Royal Caribbean the corporation.

Yes, this is what I meant.  I thought it was obvious, but I guess it wasn't.

[kywildcatfanone]

2 hours ago, teenieleek said:

You haul water on board? In single-use plastic bottles?  Why?

Because we prefer this over the ships water.  They recycle the bottles.