Bridge Tour

[duquephart]

Finally got to do a bridge tour while aboard Jupiter just recently. Very interesting and informative. One thing we learned is that Viking does not operate it's ships! That task is farmed out to a company that specializes in ship management/operation - as is the case for many cruise lines. Viking itself is "just" the hotel end of the cruise.

[CDNPolar]

Sorry... getting a bit lost here...

 

What do you mean that Viking does not "operate its ships"?

 

Are you telling me that the Captain and the senior crew are not Viking employees?

 

I have heard Captains before state how long they have worked for Viking.

[chengkp75]

Viking has contracted with Wilhelmsen Ship Management to provide technical (i.e. ship operations, not the hotel side) and crew management, since the Oceans operations started.

[duquephart]

1 hour ago, CDNPolar said:

Sorry... getting a bit lost here...

 

What do you mean that Viking does not "operate its ships"?

 

Are you telling me that the Captain and the senior crew are not Viking employees?

 

I have heard Captains before state how long they have worked for Viking.

 

One of the questions asked of the cadet giving the tour: What's it like working for Viking?

Answer: We don't work for Viking.

[WanderingBrit]

3 hours ago, CDNPolar said:

Sorry... getting a bit lost here...

 

What do you mean that Viking does not "operate its ships"?

 

Are you telling me that the Captain and the senior crew are not Viking employees?

 

I have heard Captains before state how long they have worked for Viking.

All the staff who would be needed if it was a cargo rather than passenger vessel are employed by a 3rd party contracted by Viking, and only those staff associated with the passenger operations are Viking employees.

[DrKoob]

And that's why (at least to me) the Hotel Manager is the most important person on the ship. 😀

[duquephart]

14 minutes ago, DrKoob said:

And that's why (at least to me) the Hotel Manager is the most important person on the ship. 😀

 

Does he/she keep the ship off the rocks?

[DrKoob]

1 minute ago, duquephart said:

 

Does he/she keep the ship off the rocks?

Nope, but they can get me a chocolate milkshake when no one else can 😁. 

[Mike07]

13 hours ago, duquephart said:

Finally got to do a bridge tour while aboard Jupiter just recently. Very interesting and informative. One thing we learned is that Viking does not operate it's ships! That task is farmed out to a company that specializes in ship management/operation - as is the case for many cruise lines. Viking itself is "just" the hotel end of the cruise.

 

9 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Viking has contracted with Wilhelmsen Ship Management to provide technical (i.e. ship operations, not the hotel side) and crew management, since the Oceans operations started.

 

 

Wait, so I've seen on other cruise lines where the engineers and technical staff are obviously contractors. But, the actual ship captain, first officer, and bridge officers aren't employed by Viking?

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Mike07 said:

 

 

 

Wait, so I've seen on other cruise lines where the engineers and technical staff are obviously contractors. But, the actual ship captain, first officer, and bridge officers aren't employed by Viking?

Don't know where the "engineers and technical staff are obviously contractors", or how they are so obviously contractors.  The deck (Captain, bridge officers, deck crew, Medical, Security, and Environmental officers) and engine (all engineers and maintenance personnel onboard, whether in the engine room or in the hotel) are the technical departments of a cruise ship, and both departments will be either company employees or employees of a Ship Management company.

[CDNPolar]

13 hours ago, DrKoob said:

And that's why (at least to me) the Hotel Manager is the most important person on the ship. 😀

 

And the Guest Services Manager... reporting into the Hotel Manager... but I agree with you on this one...

[CDNPolar]

12 hours ago, Mike07 said:

 

 

 

Wait, so I've seen on other cruise lines where the engineers and technical staff are obviously contractors. But, the actual ship captain, first officer, and bridge officers aren't employed by Viking?

 

This is what I asked above and it was answered NO, the captain and officers are contractors.

 

...and I have to admit, that this shocks me a bit.  I have heard Captains say the number of years that they have been sailing and the number of those years "with Viking", so perhaps what they are saying is through a contract with a third party to Viking?

Edited May 10 by CDNPolar

[Heidi13]

5 hours ago, CDNPolar said:

 

This is what I asked above and it was answered NO, the captain and officers are contractors.

 

...and I have to admit, that this shocks me a bit.  I have heard Captains say the number of years that they have been sailing and the number of those years "with Viking", so perhaps what they are saying is through a contract with a third party to Viking?

I'll suggest whether the Master, Deck Officers, Engineering Officers and Medical are contractors depends on your definition of "Contractor"

 

Unfortunately, in the past 40 - 50 yrs, marine employment standards have changed significantly and not for the better. When I started as a Cadet, I was clearly an employee of P&O Steam Navigation, receiving a monthly salary regardless if aboard a vessel, at college, or on leave. All our college fees were paid and we had extensive benefits. I was also indentured to the company, who were obligated to provide me with the required seatime and college time, to complete the Certificate of Competency.

 

In 2002, when our son joined Princess Cruises, as a cadet, he was hired by the company and only sailed on Princess ships. They paid him in cash when aboard the ship, paid his travel to/from the ship, but nothing else. When not aboard a vessel, he received no payments for wages, college fees or any benefits. Although he was hired by Princess and received payment aboard the vessel, I actually consider that arrangement more of a contractor arrangement than an employee arrangement, as once he departed a vessel they had no obligation to provide more seatime. They were also under no obligation to facilitate his college time.

 

I believe the Bridge Tour was conducted by a cadet, who would have less connection to Viking than the Master and Officers. Cadets gain better experience where they sail on different types of vessels, so this may have been his/her first trip with Viking after sailing cargo ships. The Masters and Senior Officers, although hired and paid by the ship management company, tend to only work for Viking.

 

Therefore, I can accept a Cadet stating he doesn't work for Viking, but the Masters, Chief Engineers and other Senior Officers, I'll suggest are as you noted, contracted by a 3rd party to Viking. I recall the 2 Masters on the Viking Sun knew their schedule well in advance, working basically 10 weeks on/off. Regardless of who actually hired them, it is tough to say they don't work for Viking.

[Mike07]

10 hours ago, CDNPolar said:

 

This is what I asked above and it was answered NO, the captain and officers are contractors.

 

...and I have to admit, that this shocks me a bit.  I have heard Captains say the number of years that they have been sailing and the number of those years "with Viking", so perhaps what they are saying is through a contract with a third party to Viking?

 

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge to the best of your ability. I have not found the Viking officer crew to be particularly great... and thus I feel less guilty, and almost empowered, for lighting up the officer crew on the surveys. If they are indeed contractors, I'll continue to do the same.

[Mike07]

4 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

I'll suggest whether the Master, Deck Officers, Engineering Officers and Medical are contractors depends on your definition of "Contractor"

 

 

 

 

My definition is whether they are employed directly by Viking. I don't know how international pay works. But, a contractor that receives W-2 from some other entity other than Viking or a 1099 would be a "contractor" by my definition.

 

[Jim Avery]

1 minute ago, Mike07 said:

 

 

My definition is whether they are employed directly by Viking. I don't know how international pay works. But, a contractor that receives W-2 from some other entity other than Viking or a 1099 would be a "contractor" by my definition.

 

would they all be filing US tax returns?

[Mike07]

Just now, Jim Avery said:

would they all be filing US tax returns?

 

 

No idea. I barely understand our tax code, let alone how international taxes would work on a ship like Viking (or any other cruise line). I merely was surprised that Viking used "contractors" and I mentioned my definition of what a contractor is. Where I work, there is a clear and legal distinction between an employee and contractor.

 

In Viking's case, I am surprised to read that the officer crew is outsourced. On other cruise lines, I have seen the engineering staff that keep the internals functional wearing T-shirts and gear from clearly maritime services companies. On Viking, I honestly haven't seen that, but I see the people less often.

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, Mike07 said:

On other cruise lines, I have seen the engineering staff that keep the internals functional wearing T-shirts and gear from clearly maritime services companies.

If you've seen these people in the passenger public areas, they are not part of the regular crew, especially wearing t-shirts.  At any time, there can be manufacturer's tech reps onboard to service equipment, it is found to be more cost effective, and better maintenance that way.  For instance, the engines require complete overhaul every 2.5 years, and this takes 5-6 men, working 12 hour days, about 4-6 weeks to complete.  The engineering staff do not have that kind of man/hours available from their "normal" maintenance routines, so one or two tech reps from the engine manufacturer are brought in, and a marine engineering service, like Goltens or Chris Marine, will provide some more grunt labor. Now, if you've seen these people wearing this gear ashore, well, getting "swag" from the tech reps is a longstanding maritime tradition, and the first question the crew ask the tech reps is "what swag do you have?"

 

Many cruise lines that don't use an outside ship management company, will use an in-house, operating company that charters the ship from the parent cruise line, and further, typically only one, or at most three, ships are owned by the same company, regardless of how many ships the cruise line has.  So, for example, the Viking Orion is owned by "33 Sea Leasing Co, Ltd" while Viking Star is owned by "Viking Ocean Cruise Ships I", and both are managed by Wilhelmsen on the technical side, and likely another Viking subsidiary operates the hotel side.

[chengkp75]

31 minutes ago, Mike07 said:

 

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge to the best of your ability. I have not found the Viking officer crew to be particularly great... and thus I feel less guilty, and almost empowered, for lighting up the officer crew on the surveys. If they are indeed contractors, I'll continue to do the same.

Now, which officers are you referring to, and what have they not done to your satisfaction?  Interested to know, as again, noted that there is an operational break between technical and hotel.

[CurlerRob]

2 hours ago, Mike07 said:

 

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge to the best of your ability. I have not found the Viking officer crew to be particularly great... and thus I feel less guilty, and almost empowered, for lighting up the officer crew on the surveys. If they are indeed contractors, I'll continue to do the same.

Curious as to why their employment arrangement would have any effect on your personal evaluation, or why you would feel “less guilty”? 🍺🥌

[Mike07]

52 minutes ago, CurlerRob said:

Curious as to why their employment arrangement would have any effect on your personal evaluation, or why you would feel “less guilty”? 🍺🥌

 

 

Viking asks me the question, and I give honest feedback through my looking glass... good or bad. Considering that it is Viking asking me, it must be important to Viking. But, I do have a heart, though an officer crew effectively has minimal to no discernible to me as a passenger.

 

Pull up any maritime map and thousands of vessels are making transits around the world. These officer crews can man those ships if they are looking for employment.

 

While I don't necessarily want Viking to have a Captain Kate like personality onboard, it does go to show what a difference a personable officer can do for cruiser morale. IMHO, I should not be greeting officer staff when I'm on the vessel. These are adults, often older than me.

Edited May 10 by Mike07

[chengkp75]

Still doesn't answer why whether they are employed by Viking or by Wilhelmsen it would affect your evaluation of them.

[Mike07]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Still doesn't answer why whether they are employed by Viking or by Wilhelmsen it would affect your evaluation of them.

 

 

From working in a professional environment, not a fan of contractors. It's something we could appreciate over a beer or two or three on a Viking ship and we could share war stories in the race to the bottom of professional incompetence.

[Heidi13]

7 hours ago, Mike07 said:

 

 

My definition is whether they are employed directly by Viking. I don't know how international pay works. But, a contractor that receives W-2 from some other entity other than Viking or a 1099 would be a "contractor" by my definition.

 

 

Haven't a clue what a W-2 is or a 1099. Nothing that I have ever encountered in the marine industry. If these are American terms, they aren't applicable on Norwegian Flag vessels.

 

If "Employed directly by Viking" means Viking Ocean Cruises recruits, pays and manages employees, then very few members of the ship's compliment are employees, as most of the hotel ratings are recruited by manning agencies.

[Mike07]

1 minute ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Haven't a clue what a W-2 is or a 1099. Nothing that I have ever encountered in the marine industry. If these are American terms, they aren't applicable on Norwegian Flag vessels.

 

If "Employed directly by Viking" means Viking Ocean Cruises recruits, pays and manages employees, then very few members of the ship's compliment are employees, as most of the hotel ratings are recruited by manning agencies.

 

 

W-2 and 1099 are two compensation and wage forms we use in America when we report taxes to our internal revenue service that collects federal income taxes. Furthermore, our states with income taxes would use the same forms to assess their taxes

 

In terms of the latter, you're effectively describing head hunters. Are you saying the hotel staff are also contracted out?