Is this discrimination

[JollyMia]

I booked my cruise in January paid my deposit, a few days later began filling the P&O cruise planner and onboard needs questionnaire.l have progressive Multiple Sclerosis, I can walk, not great and my balance is very poor but I can manage over short distances.

While on a cruise I hire a transit wheelchair from Mobility at Sea, which with a little assistance from my wife makes my mobility much easier.Today less than 4 weeks before departure I received an email from P&O informing me that I can’t have a wheelchair for use on the cruise because all of the evacuation chairs are full. I never requested the need for an evacuation chair. In the event of an evacuation I would be able to make my way to the muster station, but having a wheelchair for use on and around the ship would make life so much easier.

[AchileLauro]

It's certainly not discrimination, however it is certainly very bad timing.

Obviously your PEP (personal evacuation plan) is based on an assessment following the completion of your questionnaire and it has been judged that you may require the use of an emergency evacuation chair and there is a limit on available emergency evacuation resources (equipment and personnel). Surely this should have been highlighted at a much earlier stage?

[jeanlyon]

Agree, nothing to do with discrimination.  sounds more like a computer has done the working out and found it is full.

[Megabear2]

52 minutes ago, JollyMia said:

I booked my cruise in January paid my deposit, a few days later began filling the P&O cruise planner and onboard needs questionnaire.l have progressive Multiple Sclerosis, I can walk, not great and my balance is very poor but I can manage over short distances.

While on a cruise I hire a transit wheelchair from Mobility at Sea, which with a little assistance from my wife makes my mobility much easier.Today less than 4 weeks before departure I received an email from P&O informing me that I can’t have a wheelchair for use on the cruise because all of the evacuation chairs are full. I never requested the need for an evacuation chair. In the event of an evacuation I would be able to make my way to the muster station, but having a wheelchair for use on and around the ship would make life so much easier.

Your booking confirmation will show on it whether they have marked you for one to one assistance (the lowest they offer, even for walking sticks) or evacuation chair.  Assumedly when you booked you were asked for details of your mobility. Did you mention the chair at that point, if so your booking should reflect that.

 

Unfortunately these new rules are leading to confusion for all.  It may be a good idea to call the mobility team to discuss. 

 

I hope it is resolved for you soon.

[AchileLauro]

Depending on type and model of the evacuation chair t's normally recommended that a minimum of two persons are required to utilise this piece of evacuation equipment.

[molecrochip]

P&O’s interpretation of the new rules is that anyone taking a wheelchair requires an evacuation chair - even if they never use it.

 

P&O will deny boarding if you arrive with one and it’s not on your booking.

 

It actually has nothing to do with cabin in case you’re wondering.

 

1 minute ago, AchileLauro said:

Depending on type and model of the evacuation chair t's normally recommended that a minimum of two persons are required to utilise this piece of evacuation equipment.

Yes, 2 are allocated.

[molecrochip]

Just now, molecrochip said:

P&O’s interpretation of the new rules is that anyone taking a wheelchair requires an evacuation chair - even if they never use it.

I personally don’t agree their interpretation.

[Selbourne]

2 hours ago, JollyMia said:

I booked my cruise in January paid my deposit, a few days later began filling the P&O cruise planner and onboard needs questionnaire.l have progressive Multiple Sclerosis, I can walk, not great and my balance is very poor but I can manage over short distances.

While on a cruise I hire a transit wheelchair from Mobility at Sea, which with a little assistance from my wife makes my mobility much easier.Today less than 4 weeks before departure I received an email from P&O informing me that I can’t have a wheelchair for use on the cruise because all of the evacuation chairs are full. I never requested the need for an evacuation chair. In the event of an evacuation I would be able to make my way to the muster station, but having a wheelchair for use on and around the ship would make life so much easier.

What a nightmare. You say that you completed the on-board needs questionnaire in January. Did you declare that you were intending to bring a wheelchair at that time? If you did, then you should have been told at that stage that you couldn’t be accommodated, not 4 months later. If you didn’t, and have only recently declared that you are bringing a wheelchair then as @molecrochip states, if the limited number of evacuation chairs are already taken then you cannot be accommodated. It’s not discrimination, it’s safety.

 

My wife has secondary progressive Multiple Sclerosis and is now a full time wheelchair user. We have to use an accessible cabin and we declare the wheelchair immediately when we book and an evacuation chair is allocated. On that basis, once they are all allocated you’d assume that further bookings wouldn’t be accepted from those who need to bring wheelchairs. If I’d declared it in January and it had taken until 4 weeks before the cruise to be told this I would be furious. 
 

As well as clamping down on people turning up at the terminal with an undeclared wheelchair, presumably as they have a need, it’s high time that P&O also clamped down on the abuse of the assisted embarkation and disembarkation by those who don’t genuinely need it. Folk who cope perfectly adequately walking around the ship and the ports throughout the entire cruise, but then claim that they need to be transported on or off the ship in a wheelchair when they perceive that there is some advantage to be gained by doing so. Even though we have a genuine need, we avoid assisted disembarkation now as it annoys me so much 

[Lee Jones Jnr]

Nope, not discrimination just unfortunate for you.

[Cloudyrain]

I agree with Molecrochip - it's a poor interpretation of the H&S guidelines.

 

my son is a part-time wheelchair user. He doesn't need an evacuation chair, and yet to take his chair onboard they deem he automatically must have an evacuation chair. It's absolutely ridiculous and I appreciate that sometimes people who use wheelchairs part-time do so for unpredictable reasons, but this seems to disregard a whole host of disabled passengers.

 

we are now in a position of taking the chair and if there is an evacuation chair available taking that place off someone who does need it and now wont be able to travel, or not taking the chair and having to limit our activities to ship-based.

 

Edit to add: it's not discrimination, it's just a very narrow minded view of what it actually is to be disabled and use a wheelchair. 

Edited May 13 by Cloudyrain

[Megabear2]

Of 4 bookings across P&O and Cunard I have one on each line stating my husband will need one to one evacuation assistance for possibly having a walking stick with him.  Two of these bookings were made on the same telephone call with P&O, the first 16 nights direct from Southampton on Aurora carries this requirement, the second a 14 night Caribbean fly cruise on Britannia does not.  I have completed the form for both cruises identically stressing that the walking stick may not be being used on either voyage, to date receiving an acknowledgement for the Britannia cruise but nothing for the Aurora one.

 

I have the identical situation with Cunard, a 35 night Caribbean cruise acknowledged the form submission and details whilst a 21 night transatlantic via Norway/Iceland which is clearly marked one to one assistance for passenger 2 has not been acknowledged.

 

I get the distinct impression that whoever deals with the original booking makes the decision to mark the bookings one way or the other.  It is extremely worrying that such a short notice decision has been taken for the OP as this seems to indicate that permission to board with a device isn't clear cut at all and following the instructions complete and submit the form immediately after booking isn't guaranteeing your permission to board,

[Selbourne]

5 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

Of 4 bookings across P&O and Cunard I have one on each line stating my husband will need one to one evacuation assistance for possibly having a walking stick with him.  Two of these bookings were made on the same telephone call with P&O, the first 16 nights direct from Southampton on Aurora carries this requirement, the second a 14 night Caribbean fly cruise on Britannia does not.  I have completed the form for both cruises identically stressing that the walking stick may not be being used on either voyage, to date receiving an acknowledgement for the Britannia cruise but nothing for the Aurora one.

 

I have the identical situation with Cunard, a 35 night Caribbean cruise acknowledged the form submission and details whilst a 21 night transatlantic via Norway/Iceland which is clearly marked one to one assistance for passenger 2 has not been acknowledged.

 

I get the distinct impression that whoever deals with the original booking makes the decision to mark the bookings one way or the other.  It is extremely worrying that such a short notice decision has been taken for the OP as this seems to indicate that permission to board with a device isn't clear cut at all and following the instructions complete and submit the form immediately after booking isn't guaranteeing your permission to board,

The whole system definitely needs reviewing urgently. As well as issues such as these being highlighted on this forum (and no doubt others) there have been several reports in the press recently about passengers with wheelchairs and scooters being denied boarding. Whilst we understand the issue here, the press don’t and the articles are all painting P&O in a very poor ‘anti-disability’ light, which is not the case. 

[Angel57]

As with many things recently - many of the recent issues and customer upsets are caused very poor communications from P&O.

 

@JollyMia I hope it all gets quickly sorted.

[9265359]

12 hours ago, JollyMia said:

I booked my cruise in January paid my deposit, a few days later began filling the P&O cruise planner and onboard needs questionnaire.l have progressive Multiple Sclerosis, I can walk, not great and my balance is very poor but I can manage over short distances.

 

I sympathise greatly with you, but did those health issues not cause pause for thought when you read the assistance requirements that you have to agree to when booking (with my bolding)?

 

"In the unlikely event of an emergency, it is important we have sufficient and specific support for guests who require additional assistance, and we have advance notice of this. Please read the following declaration of assistance needs for your voyage, even if you are travelling with someone who can support you. Guests who are unable to get to their assembly stations independently (which could involve several flights of stairs as lifts will not be available) due to a disability, health, or mental capacity must be pre-registered for assistance to ensure we have sufficient support. Failure to provide this could result in being denied boarding at your own expense. If you do require assistance using the below statements, please advise us of the level of assistance required. Someone to guide and steady me on the stairs (121 assistance) For anyone bringing a mobility aid this is a recommended minimum requirement. I'm unable to use stairs (emergency evacuation chair) For anyone who is a full /part time wheelchair or mobility scooter user this is a mandatory requirement."

 

If your balance is poor and you can only manage short distances then could you manage several flights of stairs independently without assistance from anyone, including anyone you are travelling with?

 

Plus keeping in mind that this might be using the crew evacuation stairs in sub-optimal conditions if it is an emergency that requires everyone off the ship and into the lifeboats.

 

12 hours ago, JollyMia said:

Today less than 4 weeks before departure I received an email from P&O informing me that I can’t have a wheelchair for use on the cruise because all of the evacuation chairs are full.

 

Denying boarding to someone who didn't notify that they needed assistance and those facilities are full is sensible, even if it might not appear so at the time to the individual concerned.

 

However refusing to rent someone a wheelchair who needs one because the evacuation facilities are full is illogical as that is the worst of both worlds - a passenger that doesn't have a wheelchair they need and a passenger cannot evacuate because there are no facilities.

 

If P&O's policy is that if an individual wants to rent (or bring) a wheelchair then because of that the individual has demonstrated from that fact that they will need assistance in an emergency whatever they say, then either they should be added to that evacuation list or if they didn't notify and those facilities are full then they should be denied boarding, not that P&O won't rent them a wheelchair!

[AchileLauro]

10 hours ago, molecrochip said:

I personally don’t agree their interpretation.

Reluctantly I have to say that on this occasion I have some sympathy with the company here and have to disagree with you. I really don't think that P&O have any option other than to take this line of thought, the problem being carrying out a valid assessment of mobility remotely based solely on a questionnaire and telephone conversations. However I still think that they have dealt with it quite poorly by cancelling so close to the cruise and causing such disappointment.

 

Having only just come off a short cruise on Arcadia I'm inclined to wonder if the reason for the cancellation may be more related to low crewing levels rather than to the number of evacuation chairs available?

 

We went through all this last year with mother-in-law. Fair dues to the P&O team they were very thorough on that occasion and a satisfactory needs assessment was made but only after several emails and a couple of telephone calls.  Only for the "sweet old dear" to cancel shortly after the final payment was made.😬

[Selbourne]

I’ve just taken a screenshot of our Cruise Personaliser showing that an Evacuation Chair is required for my wife for our cruise next week, just in case!

[Megabear2]

10 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

I sympathise greatly with you, but did those health issues not cause pause for thought when you read the assistance requirements that you have to agree to when booking (with my bolding)?

 

"In the unlikely event of an emergency, it is important we have sufficient and specific support for guests who require additional assistance, and we have advance notice of this. Please read the following declaration of assistance needs for your voyage, even if you are travelling with someone who can support you. Guests who are unable to get to their assembly stations independently (which could involve several flights of stairs as lifts will not be available) due to a disability, health, or mental capacity must be pre-registered for assistance to ensure we have sufficient support. Failure to provide this could result in being denied boarding at your own expense. If you do require assistance using the below statements, please advise us of the level of assistance required. Someone to guide and steady me on the stairs (121 assistance) For anyone bringing a mobility aid this is a recommended minimum requirement. I'm unable to use stairs (emergency evacuation chair) For anyone who is a full /part time wheelchair or mobility scooter user this is a mandatory requirement."

 

If your balance is poor and you can only manage short distances then could you manage several flights of stairs independently without assistance from anyone, including anyone you are travelling with?

 

Plus keeping in mind that this might be using the crew evacuation stairs in sub-optimal conditions if it is an emergency that requires everyone off the ship and into the lifeboats.

 

 

Denying boarding to someone who didn't notify that they needed assistance and those facilities are full is sensible, even if it might not appear so at the time to the individual concerned.

 

However refusing to rent someone a wheelchair who needs one because the evacuation facilities are full is illogical as that is the worst of both worlds - a passenger that doesn't have a wheelchair they need and a passenger cannot evacuate because there are no facilities.

 

If P&O's policy is that if an individual wants to rent (or bring) a wheelchair then because of that the individual has demonstrated from that fact that they will need assistance in an emergency whatever they say, then either they should be added to that evacuation list or if they didn't notify and those facilities are full then they should be denied boarding, not that P&O won't rent them a wheelchair!

Rereading the OP's post he does not say P&O have cancelled his cruise.  He says that they have refused him the right to have a wheelchair hire.   He also states he completed the required form shortly after booking and submitted it.  Completion of that form presumably meant he filled it out to say he would be using a wheelchair onboard and gave details of his illness. As it reads he has followed the correct procedure back in January.

 

Further information and explanation is clearly required from the OP before he is judged by posters as having mistakenly done something wrong.  All we currently know is a booking was made in January, filled in his form and now nearly 4 months later has been contacted by P&O.

 

Something has clearly gone awry, but what needs more information from the OP.

[9265359]

4 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

Something has clearly gone awry

 

Something has, because as I said before, refusing to rent someone a wheelchair who needs one because the evacuation facilities are full and your policy is that anyone who asks for a wheelchair needs evacuation facilities, means that the passenger doesn't have the wheelchair they need and they have a passenger they cannot evacuate because there are no facilities.

[Megabear2]

13 hours ago, JollyMia said:

I booked my cruise in January paid my deposit, a few days later began filling the P&O cruise planner and onboard needs questionnaire.l have progressive Multiple Sclerosis, I can walk, not great and my balance is very poor but I can manage over short distances.

While on a cruise I hire a transit wheelchair from Mobility at Sea, which with a little assistance from my wife makes my mobility much easier.Today less than 4 weeks before departure I received an email from P&O informing me that I can’t have a wheelchair for use on the cruise because all of the evacuation chairs are full. I never requested the need for an evacuation chair. In the event of an evacuation I would be able to make my way to the muster station, but having a wheelchair for use on and around the ship would make life so much easier.

JollyMia, I'm sorry you have this situation.  May I ask you for some further information as follows:

 

1. Did you book via a travel agent or direct with P&O?  If the latter was it by telephone or on the website?

 

2. From your post you appear to have sailed with P&O before and that being the case when did you last travel with them and use the wheelchair you hire? The rules changed during 2023 and you should have been made aware of the new requirement at booking.

 

3. I note you completed the mobility assistance form.  Did you indicate on it you would be bringing/using a wheelchair intermittently whilst onboard?  The form is very clear on what constitutes a mobility aid so what information did you actually provide?

 

4. Have P&O acknowledged your submitted form at any point?

 

5. Have P&O actually cancelled your entire cruise, and if so are they refunding your money or saying it is at your own expense?

 

6. If they have not cancelled your cruise but are just saying you can't have a wheelchair what level of assistance are they offering you in an emergency, ie are they saying they will offer one to one (as you stated you have some albeit poor mobility) or what other solution.  Currently even a walking stick user is required to book the one to one.

 

No doubt it's very distressing for you but provision of this information might help to understand what exactly has happened here.  Thank you.

[nosapphire]

23 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

Something has, because as I said before, refusing to rent someone a wheelchair who needs one because the evacuation facilities are full and your policy is that anyone who asks for a wheelchair needs evacuation facilities, means that the passenger doesn't have the wheelchair they need and they have a passenger they cannot evacuate because there are no facilities.

re-reading the post, the OP seems to say that they do not NEED a wheelchair to move around the ship, but it makes their life more comfortable.

The OP has also said that they would be able to make their own independent way to the muster station in the event of an emergency, so do not require an evacuation chair.

I sometimes need a walking stick ashore because of a weak leg. I do not use it on the ship, but provided the stairs have handrails I can get up and down 10 decks or so totally unaided and fairly briskly.I have not booked with P&O since starting to use the stick, but it sounds as if I would also be told that I need one-to-one for evacuation assistance.

It does sound as if the new mobility rules are causing problems for people who are in-betweenies - i.e., not disabled, but not fully fit either. 

Let's hope the OP manages to get a satisfactory resolution - and comes back to let us know what happens.

[Megabear2]

3 minutes ago, nosapphire said:

I sometimes need a walking stick ashore because of a weak leg. I do not use it on the ship, but provided the stairs have handrails I can get up and down 10 decks or so totally unaided and fairly briskly.I have not booked with P&O since starting to use the stick, but it sounds as if I would also be told that I need one-to-one for evacuation assistance.

You are correct, you would be told your minimum requirement is one to one.  My husband doesn't even always travel with a stick as he only uses it if his fibromyalgia flares up, thankfully only a couple of times a year, however we are made to declare him as one to one requirement.  He is also having to undergo tender tests on both P&O and Cunard going forward. 

 

Depending how and who you book via the information can be very hit and miss.  When considering a booking via a very well known specialist travel agent the information was not very thoroughly explained  but luckily I personally am very upto date on the issue. Others less aware may fail to grasp the situation regarding in particular walking sticks and frames.

 

Booking direct with Pz&O by telephone for two cruises on the same call the agent spent 15 minutes on the issue before allowing me to book the first one and yet the second booking has completely different details on both my reservation and my cruise personaliser.  Same agent, same call, same passengers.  

[Selbourne]

8 minutes ago, nosapphire said:

re-reading the post, the OP seems to say that they do not NEED a wheelchair to move around the ship, but it makes their life more comfortable.

The OP has also said that they would be able to make their own independent way to the muster station in the event of an emergency, so do not require an evacuation chair.

I sometimes need a walking stick ashore because of a weak leg. I do not use it on the ship, but provided the stairs have handrails I can get up and down 10 decks or so totally unaided and fairly briskly.I have not booked with P&O since starting to use the stick, but it sounds as if I would also be told that I need one-to-one for evacuation assistance.

It does sound as if the new mobility rules are causing problems for people who are in-betweenies - i.e., not disabled, but not fully fit either. 

Let's hope the OP manages to get a satisfactory resolution - and comes back to let us know what happens.

The problem with MS, especially at the early stages, is that a persons level of mobility can vary enormously from day to day, especially if the person still has a degree of mobility. Some days they can cope reasonably well without much assistance, whereas other days a wheelchair may be essential. I remember this well when my wife was at the earlier stages of the disease. It is therefore quite feasible that someone may be able to make their way to the muster station unaided some days but not others. 

[Megabear2]

I understood from previous discussions on these new rules that they allow a certain percentage of passengers with limited or severe mobility issues to be onboard- certainly I have been told by all the cruise lines I book with to complete the form immediately as there are limited numbers to offer assistance.  That being the case should not the computer advise the booker of the cruise (be it an individual or t/a) immediately if the available help is full?  In fact I'd be very interested to know what this percentage is, as on some of my cruises the volume of walking sticks, rollators, mobility scooters and wheelchairs looks extremely high.

 

It does seem extremely strange it can take months as in this case.

 

 

[david63]

1 hour ago, 9265359 said:

refusing to rent someone a wheelchair

P&O do not rent wheelchairs, nor any other mobility aid. The OP was renting the wheelchair independently from Mobility at Sea which, to the best of my knowledge, has no connection to P&O/Carnival.

[Gettingwarmer]

@JollyMia Did you book direct or through a travel agent. If so have you ascertained that they completed the form mentioning that you would be having a wheelchair on board.