Jones Act Question

[smeyer418]

I just spoke with Princess. Apparently, it would be legal if we take the Golden from Seattle, spend the night in Vancouver, and take the Star back to San Francisco since we would be in the foreign port for over 24 hours. They also said as long as we were switching ships we would be okay.

actually its my understanding that it does apply to the specific vessel but I don't think they actual have bothered to ask for an opinion on that one. I don't think the one day makes a difference but its their problem not yours as long as they allow you to do.

[d-dubya]

OK, now I'm confused and my curiousity is peaked.

 

The US mainland to Hawaii cruises stop at Ensenada MX to include a foreign port in the itinerary. I had heard this was because of PVSA (or Jones ...)

 

How is this different from a cruise that goes from Seattle to a nearby foreign port, Vancouver, then down the coast to SF or LA?

 

I'm pretty sure Princess does not have US flagged ships, but is there some other registration or factor involved that allows the mainland to Hawaii cruise?

 

 

A foreign flagged carrier can carry people ROUNDTRIP from a U.S. port with a stop in any "foreign port", i.e. Ensenada. To carry passengers between "two U.S. ports", (from one U.S. port to another U.S. port) requires a stop in a "distant foreign port". Distant foreign ports are defined in the law, the closest being in South America and the Southern Caribbean, or Kiribati from Hawaii.

[Cuizer2]

OK, now I'm confused and my curiousity is peaked.

 

The US mainland to Hawaii cruises stop at Ensenada MX to include a foreign port in the itinerary. I had heard this was because of PVSA (or Jones ...)

 

How is this different from a cruise that goes from Seattle to a nearby foreign port, Vancouver, then down the coast to SF or LA?

 

I'm pretty sure Princess does not have US flagged ships, but is there some other registration or factor involved that allows the mainland to Hawaii cruise?

 

Only the round trip cruises from the US mainland to Hawaii stop in Ensenada. The mainland to Hawaii cruises (or Hawaii to mainland cruises) begin or end in Vancouver or Ensenada. They do not just stop there.

 

A round trip cruise does not transport passengers from one US port to another. It only transports the passengers from the same port to the same port. Under the PVSA the ship then only has to stop at a foreign port.

 

However, if the ship is going from one US port to another, such as the ever popular California to Florida through the Panama Canal cruises, then the ship must stop at a distant foreign port, which basically means it must make at least one stop at a port that is not in North or Central America or the Caribbean. Thus any port in South America, and the South American Islands will do.

 

However, a cruise from a foreign port to an American port or a cruise from an American port to a foreign port is fine. Thus the cruises that go from the mainland to Hawaii or from Hawaii to the mainland will begin or end in either Vancouver or Ensenada.

 

A cruise that goes from Seattle to Vancouver is fine. A cruise that goes from Vancouver to San Francisco is fine. Thus the reason that a ship going from Seattle to Vancouver to San Francisco is two cruises. There cannot be any passengers from Seattle on the ship when it docks in San Francisco.

 

However, the following would be okay ...

 

Cruise one - Seattle to Vancouver

Cruise two - Vancouver to San Francisco

Cruise three - San Francisco to Acapulco

 

This is because the passenger would be traveling from Seattle to Acapulco. Since Acapulco is a foreign port, the travel is from a US port to a foreign port, and thus is in compliance with the PVSA.

 

Now if the passenger continued on to say Miami and the cruise did not stop in South American port then that would be a violation of the PVSA. If the ship did stop in a South American then that would not be a violation of the PVSA.

 

I'll give you a real life example from this board a while back. Someone booked a round trip cruise from Los Angeles to Hawaii and back. Then realized that were would be a scheduling conflict. They wanted to join the cruise in Hawaii. This would make it a oneway cruise and thus a violation of the PVSA. However, I told them to ask to be disembarked in Ensenada, thus turing it into a US port to a foreign port trip, which is not in violation of the PVSA. The cruise line agreed to this modification.

[smeyer418]

one more point the fine is $300 per passenger carried illegally. But the US can bar the ship and the cruise line from entering any US port for some time as a result of an intentional violation. This has never been actually imposed but the result is so great that no cruise will knowingly violate these rules.

[cherylandtk]

That's a good explanation, but I would add one caveat. In your example of cruise 1, 2 and 3, if those are the same ship, then the cruise line (at least Princess) will not let you book all three B2B2B, something about legs 1 and 2 combining to make an illegal journey, even though you plan to continue on to make it a legal PVSA trip. If any pax disembark at the end of what would be an illegal route, they won't let you book it.

 

This happened to one poster last year who wanted to book SF->Vancouver -> Anchorage ->Europe. They could not do it because the ship disembarked pax at Anchorage, which made it an illegal journey per PVSA, even though the pax from SF would have stayed onboard for the next leg.

[LARGIN]

That's a good explanation, but I would add one caveat. In your example of cruise 1, 2 and 3, if those are the same ship, then the cruise line (at least Princess) will not let you book all three B2B2B, something about legs 1 and 2 combining to make an illegal journey, even though you plan to continue on to make it a legal PVSA trip. If any pax disembark at the end of what would be an illegal route, they won't let you book it.

 

This happened to one poster last year who wanted to book SF->Vancouver -> Anchorage ->Europe. They could not do it because the ship disembarked pax at Anchorage, which made it an illegal journey per PVSA, even though the pax from SF would have stayed onboard for the next leg.

 

Last year we did a SF/Vancouver, Vancouver/Whittier, Whittier/Vancouver b2b2b.. Passengers got off and on in Vancouver from SF and Whittier from Vancouver; we did not..

[cherylandtk]

Largin, I can't explain why your scenario worked and the other did not. As with many of these esoteric rules I suspect the real reason has more to do with the experience of the person taking the booking than the actual regulation or the cruiseline policy.

[LARGIN]

Largin, I can't explain why your scenario worked and the other did not. As with many of these esoteric rules I suspect the real reason has more to do with the experience of the person taking the booking than the actual regulation or the cruiseline policy.

 

Probably so.. Friends tried to book same cruise and were told by Princess CSR that they could not. I told them to have TA call again and this time ask for a Supervisor. The Supervisor corrected the CSR and informed her that indeed the b2b2b cruise was legal.

[Cuizer2]

That's a good explanation, but I would add one caveat. In your example of cruise 1, 2 and 3, if those are the same ship, then the cruise line (at least Princess) will not let you book all three B2B2B, something about legs 1 and 2 combining to make an illegal journey, even though you plan to continue on to make it a legal PVSA trip. If any pax disembark at the end of what would be an illegal route, they won't let you book it.

 

This happened to one poster last year who wanted to book SF->Vancouver -> Anchorage ->Europe. They could not do it because the ship disembarked pax at Anchorage, which made it an illegal journey per PVSA, even though the pax from SF would have stayed onboard for the next leg.

 

That person did not understand the rule. There are several cruises that leave a US port and stop in Key West, or stop at Catalina Island. Both of these are US ports and if someone got off that would be a violation of PVSA. The same with the mainland to Hawaii and back.

 

If you are planing to remain with the ship until it reaches a foreign port, or stops at a distant foreign port, then there is no violation of the PVSA. It does not matter where the ship stops in between the embarkation and final debarkation ports (unless it is a distant foreign port). What matter is where the passenger gets on and off.

[Pam in CA]

The OP would be embarking in a US port and disembarking in a foreign port. They would then be emarking in a foreign port and disembarking in a US port. -- Actually, according to the PVSA, they are not disembarking in a foreign port unless they stay in that foreign port for 24 hours or longer. That means they would be in violation of the PVSA, i.e., they are embarking and disembarking in the US. They must not only get off the ship but leave the ship completely and close all accounts.

 

Keep in mind, The Golden Princess leaves a US port, visits Hawaii then returns to US port with just a short stop in Mexico. It also leaves Seattle, goes to Alaska with a day in Canada then back to Seattle. -- I wouldn't consider the stop in Ensenada "short." On our cruise next January, we're there from 1pm - 8pm. That's longer than some other ports I've been to recently. This is the 3rd time I've taken this cruise over the last several years and we have always stopped in Ensenada for several hours and allowed to get off and tour around.

 

I just spoke with Princess. Apparently, it would be legal if we take the Golden from Seattle, spend the night in Vancouver, and take the Star back to San Francisco since we would be in the foreign port for over 24 hours. They also said as long as we were switching ships we would be okay.

Yes, this would be correct. You can disembark, i.e., pay off your onboard account, leave the ship with all your worldly goods, stay over in a foreign port, and embark on a ship back to the US the next day and you'd be OK. It's not the switching of ships but rather completely disembarking ship # 1 and embarking ship #2 the next day.

[DanJ]

That person did not understand the rule. There are several cruises that leave a US port and stop in Key West, or stop at Catalina Island. Both of these are US ports and if someone got off that would be a violation of PVSA. The same with the mainland to Hawaii and back.

 

If you are planing to remain with the ship until it reaches a foreign port, or stops at a distant foreign port, then there is no violation of the PVSA. It does not matter where the ship stops in between the embarkation and final debarkation ports (unless it is a distant foreign port). What matter is where the passenger gets on and off.

 

Catalina and Key West in your example are ports of call, not an disembarkation port as in the other example. True that the disembarkation ports are simply another port of call to someone who is sailing onward and not planning to disembark, but the authorities still look at them as such and can disallow such a booking. There was someone on here last year who wanted to put 3 cruises together, that went from NY-Montreal-Ft Lauderdale-Manaus and were told no because NY and FLL were disembarkation ports. I believe in that situation, the person just dropped the NY-Montreal leg and started the itinerary in Montreal.

[Cruisin' Chick]

At the meet and greet for my Hawaiian cruise, one guy said that his son needed to leave the ship at our last Hawaiian port to get home or else risk losing his job. I said that it's a violation of the PVSA as he would miss Ensenada. He claimed that his son had contacted Princess and got permission (I'm guessing they told him what the fine was). Turned out we had to miss that last port due to high waves, so his kid had to stay on the ship through Ensenada. Don't know if his son got canned.

[Cuizer2]

Catalina and Key West in your example are ports of call, not an disembarkation port as in the other example. True that the disembarkation ports are simply another port of call to someone who is sailing onward and not planning to disembark, but the authorities still look at them as such and can disallow such a booking. There was someone on here last year who wanted to put 3 cruises together, that went from NY-Montreal-Ft Lauderdale-Manaus and were told no because NY and FLL were disembarkation ports. I believe in that situation, the person just dropped the NY-Montreal leg and started the itinerary in Montreal.

You could disembark at any port of call and there is no way that the cruise line could stop you.

[Cuizer2]

At the meet and greet for my Hawaiian cruise' date=' one guy said that his son needed to leave the ship at our last Hawaiian port to get home or else risk losing his job. I said that it's a violation of the PVSA as he would miss Ensenada. He claimed that his son had contacted Princess and got permission (I'm guessing they told him what the fine was). Turned out we had to miss that last port due to high waves, so his kid had to stay on the ship through Ensenada. Don't know if his son got canned.[/quote']I would have to say that the kid was pretty stupid in this case. Never mind the missed port. Why book a cruise that is going to get you fired? I made special arrangements to take two weeks off (without pay) so I could go on a Panama Canal cruise (I already had two other cruises booked that year and didn't want to back out of them). I got the okay, enjoyed the cruise so much that I wanted to do it again. However, it was too much. I get more vacation time starting in 2011 and book a longer cruise then.

[Guest nhrich]

Last year we did a SF/Vancouver, Vancouver/Whittier, Whittier/Vancouver b2b2b.. Passengers got off and on in Vancouver from SF and Whittier from Vancouver; we did not..

 

Your starting point was SF, and your end point was Vancouver. Since you ended in Canada, this is a legal b2b2b. If the end point had been Seattle (aside from the fact that it couldn't have been since it started in Whittier and would need a stop at a distant foreign port), it would not have been a legal b2b2b.

[LARGIN]

Your starting point was SF, and your end point was Vancouver. Since you ended in Canada, this is a legal b2b2b. If the end point had been Seattle (aside from the fact that it couldn't have been since it started in Whittier and would need a stop at a distant foreign port), it would not have been a legal b2b2b.

 

You are correct.. Another weird thing 2 different b2b's

 

b2b #1.. Vancouver/Whittier Whittier/Vancouver... Legal

b2b #2.. Whittier/Vancouver Vancouver/Whittier... Illegal

 

Same number of days, same ports.. One legal the other not.. Go figure :rolleyes:

[sultan_sfo]

If # 2 were to have a stop at a nearby foreign port, may be it would become legal? Embarkation / Disembarkation ports don't count.

 

You are correct.. Another weird thing 2 different b2b's

 

b2b #1.. Vancouver/Whittier Whittier/Vancouver... Legal

b2b #2.. Whittier/Vancouver Vancouver/Whittier... Illegal

 

Same number of days, same ports.. One legal the other not.. Go figure :rolleyes:

[Pam in CA]

You could disembark at any port of call and there is no way that the cruise line could stop you.

No, they can't stop you but several things will happen. First, if the ship is delayed because you haven't notified them that you were disembarking and they waited to give you time to embark, they have your credit card on file and they WILL charge you any fees incurred due to your negligence. (It costs the cruiseline $10k or more for each hour.) Secondly, they will check to see if you've violated the PVSA and again, with your CC on file, any fees levied on the ship due to the violation will be charged to your CC. So, yes, you can disembark wherever you want but it could wind up being a VERY expensive decision, even in a foreign port.

[paul929207]

You are correct.. Another weird thing 2 different b2b's

 

b2b #1.. Vancouver/Whittier Whittier/Vancouver... Legal

b2b #2.. Whittier/Vancouver Vancouver/Whittier... Illegal

 

Same number of days, same ports.. One legal the other not.. Go figure :rolleyes:

I do not understand why #2 is illegal. It starts and ends in the same US port and it visits a foriegn port.

[Cuizer2]

I do not understand why #2 is illegal. It starts and ends in the same US port and it visits a foriegn port.

There is nothing wrong with # 2. It is fine as both a one way and a round trip.

[Cuizer2]

No, they can't stop you but several things will happen. First, if the ship is delayed because you haven't notified them that you were disembarking and they waited to give you time to embark, they have your credit card on file and they WILL charge you any fees incurred due to your negligence. (It costs the cruiseline $10k or more for each hour.) Secondly, they will check to see if you've violated the PVSA and again, with your CC on file, any fees levied on the ship due to the violation will be charged to your CC. So, yes, you can disembark wherever you want but it could wind up being a VERY expensive decision, even in a foreign port.

You are assuming a lot:

 

1) You are assuming that the ship will wait for you.

2) You are assuming the account was set up with a credit card.

3) You are assuming that PVSA was violated.

4) You are assuming that the person did not notify the cruise line.

[Pam in CA]

You are assuming a lot:

 

1) You are assuming that the ship will wait for you.

2) You are assuming the account was set up with a credit card.

3) You are assuming that PVSA was violated.

4) You are assuming that the person did not notify the cruise line.

That's right. I am assuming a lot. First, in most cases, the ship will wait for passengers who haven't checked in and that's a fact. If you haven't notified them that you are disembarking, they will announce for the passenger to please call the Passenger Services Desk and they will wait.

 

Most passengers use a credit or debit card so it's a reasonable assumption that the ship will have access to charging you. Failing that, they know where you live and how to reach you. Believe, me, they will get their money one way or another.

 

As for the PVSA, I said that they would check to see if a violation occurred. And from your post, I assumed that the person did not notify the cruise line. If they do notify the cruise line and have permission, then none of my assumptions apply since everything will have been checked and they know the passenger won't be re-boarding.

[j!m]

could someone explain to a canadian what this pvsa is about and why it exists please?? does it apply to me(i am not an american) does it apply to the ship because they are foreign registered?

 

thanks

[wrp96]

could someone explain to a canadian what this pvsa is about and why it exists please?? does it apply to me(i am not an american) does it apply to the ship because they are foreign registered?

 

thanks

 

 

The PVSA is a cabotage law designed to protect American shipping interests.

 

It applies to all passengers onboard the ship.

 

Other countries have cabotage laws as well, some much looser, some just as strict (Italy and Norway come to mind).

[paul929207]

Unless a ship meets rules making it "Ameican", it cannot carry passengers from one US port to another without visiting a "distant foriegn port". The citizenship of the passenger does not matter. Virtually none of the large cruise ships meet these rules.

 

This law is the reason the one way Alaskan cruises start or end in Vancouver rather than Seattle.