Jones Act Question

[MojoJones]

Hi all - Is it a Jones Act violation to take a cruise from Seattle to Vancouver and then take a second cruise from Vancouver (departing the same day) to San Francisco?

 

Thanks,

Kris

[paul929207]

This would violate the PVSA. No cruise line would allow it.

[smeyer418]

Hi all - Is it a Jones Act violation to take a cruise from Seattle to Vancouver and then take a second cruise from Vancouver (departing the same day) to San Francisco?

 

Thanks,

Kris

yes if it was the same ship. Its ok if its a different ship...

 

(and you know by now its the Passenger Vessel Services Act not the Jones Act)

[Cuizer2]

It is not the Jones Act that you need to be concerned with. It is the Passenger Vessel Services Act (aka PVSA). You could not take a cruise from Seattle to Vancouver and then leave from Vancouver on the same day and go to San Francisco. In fact, that is why the ship is repositioning from Seattle to Vancouver, so that it is not in violation of the PVSA.

 

However, if you are talking about two different ships on two different lines, then this would be possible, simply because neither line is transporting you from one US city to another. You could not do this on two different ships of the same line, but you could do it on two different ships of different lines.

 

Your other alternative is to take ground or air transportation from Seattle to Vancouver and then take the cruise from Vancouver to San Francisco.

[jhannah]

The if/thens associated with the PVSA all point to how arcane it is, and how it should be replealed! (IMO)

[Cuizer2]

The if/thens associated with the PVSA all point to how arcane it is, and how it should be replealed! (IMO)

The last attempt at modifying the PVSA was to make it stronger (fortunately this did not happen). I don't see much chance of it being repealed.

[MojoJones]

Nevermind... my question was answered above :)

[Colo Cruiser]

If you book them seperatley then it can be done.

[BaumD]

If you book them seperatley then it can be done.

 

 

They will probably catch the fact that you are booked on both cruises and not allow it.

[2pbears]

 

Your other alternative is to take ground or air transportation from Seattle to Vancouver and then take the cruise from Vancouver to San Francisco.

 

Or you could do as we are doing. Take one ship from Seattle to Vancouver, spend one night in Vancouver and then take another ship from Vancouver to San Francisco.

[chessbriar]

From Wiki

Under the Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886, 46 App. U.S.C. § 289, foreign-flagged vessels cannot transport passengers directly between U.S. ports. The handful of U.S.-flagged cruise ships in operation are registered in the U.S. to permit cruises between the Hawaiian Islands, or from the continental U.S. to Hawaii. The Passenger Services Act, however, does not prohibit foreign-flagged ships departing from and returning to the same U.S. port. Nor does it prohibit foreign-flagged ships departing from a U.S. port, visiting a foreign port, and then continuing to a second U.S. port. However, in order to embark in a US port and disembark in a second US port, the vessel must visit a port outside of the USA.

You should be just fine. It applies to ships who are doing cruises that begin and end in US ports. Your cruise starts in the US and ends in Canada and the other cruise starts in Canada and ends in the US

[Pam in CA]

From Wiki You should be just fine. It applies to ships who are doing cruises that begin and end in US ports. Your cruise starts in the US and ends in Canada and the other cruise starts in Canada and ends in the US

Wiki doesn't give you all the facts. Since the OP would be embarking in a U.S. port and disembarking in a U.S. port, it does apply, regardless of whether or not they leave one ship and board another so the OP would be in violation of the PVSA. If they stay over one night, i.e., "stay" in Vancouver, and board another ship the next day, they would be OK. If they disembark one ship and board another the same day without "staying," they would be in violation since technically, they'd be embarking and disembarking in the U.S.

[Cuizer2]

If you book them seperatley then it can be done.

Not if you are booking the same ship. The cruise line will catch this.

[Cuizer2]

Oops.

[d-dubya]

Just to hammer the point home...the PVSA applies to "carriers" and not to "ships" so a different ship of the same line would still be violating the PVSA...moving to a different carrier would be perfectly legal.

[Cuizer2]

From Wiki You should be just fine. It applies to ships who are doing cruises that begin and end in US ports. Your cruise starts in the US and ends in Canada and the other cruise starts in Canada and ends in the US

 

If the person is on the same ship, than that ship would be transporting that person from one US port to another US port. This would be a violation of the PVSA. The fact that it is two different cruises makes no difference. In order to transport passengers from one US port to another US port a stop would have to be made in a distant foreign port (or it would have to be a US flagged ship). There are no distant foreign ports in North or Central America. The closest distant foreign ports are in South American and some of the Caribbean islands that are considered part of South American. Aruba is one example.

[Cuizer2]

Wiki doesn't give you all the facts. Since the OP would be embarking in a U.S. port and disembarking in a U.S. port, it does apply, regardless of whether or not they leave one ship and board another so the OP would be in violation of the PVSA. If they stay over one night, i.e., "stay" in Vancouver, and board another ship the next day, they would be OK. If they disembark one ship and board another the same day without "staying," they would be in violation since technically, they'd be embarking and disembarking in the U.S.

 

Just to hammer the point home...the PVSA applies to "carriers" and not to "ships" so a different ship of the same line would still be violating the PVSA...moving to a different carrier would be perfectly legal.

I believe that d-dubya is correct.

[Times Prince]

If the person is on the same ship, than that ship would be transporting that person from one US port to another US port. This would be a violation of the PVSA. The fact that it is two different cruises makes no difference. In order to transport passengers from one US port to another US port a stop would have to be made in a distant foreign port (or it would have to be a US flagged ship). There are no distant foreign ports in North or Central America. The closest distant foreign ports are in South American and some of the Caribbean islands that are considered part of South American. Aruba is one example.

OK, now I'm confused and my curiousity is peaked.

 

The US mainland to Hawaii cruises stop at Ensenada MX to include a foreign port in the itinerary. I had heard this was because of PVSA (or Jones ...)

 

How is this different from a cruise that goes from Seattle to a nearby foreign port, Vancouver, then down the coast to SF or LA?

 

I'm pretty sure Princess does not have US flagged ships, but is there some other registration or factor involved that allows the mainland to Hawaii cruise?

[chessbriar]

Wiki doesn't give you all the facts. Since the OP would be embarking in a U.S. port and disembarking in a U.S. port, it does apply, regardless of whether or not they leave one ship and board another so the OP would be in violation of the PVSA.

The OP would be embarking in a US port and disembarking in a foreign port. They would then be emarking in a foreign port and disembarking in a US port.

 

Keep in mind, The Golden Princess leaves a US port, visits Hawaii then returns to US port with just a short stop in Mexico. It also leaves Seattle, goes to Alaska with a day in Canada then back to Seattle.

 

The best thing the OP can do is contact their TA or the cruiseline to get this verified. Make sure you get it in writing

[smeyer418]

If you book them seperatley then it can be done.

They have to check names against each manifest. You have to give the name on your legal documents. It used to be able to do this by using just an initial on one leg and your full name on the other...no longer however...

[smeyer418]

OK, now I'm confused and my curiousity is peaked.

 

The US mainland to Hawaii cruises stop at Ensenada MX to include a foreign port in the itinerary. I had heard this was because of PVSA (or Jones ...)

 

How is this different from a cruise that goes from Seattle to a nearby foreign port, Vancouver, then down the coast to SF or LA?

 

I'm pretty sure Princess does not have US flagged ships, but is there some other registration or factor involved that allows the mainland to Hawaii cruise?

 

 

The hawaiian bound ship either returns to the same place it left from or the people get off in Ensenada and are bused back to San Diego. Even the US flagged Pride of America can't do HAWAII to SD as it has a "special" license and is prohibited from doing this...

when you do a back to back for PVSA purposes its considered one voyage. Even if the ship left you went on to Alaska and then came back to Vancouver and picked you up and returned you to a different US port whence you came it still isn't allowed....I know more than you want to know and its not going to change any time soon(because it also applies to goods and Ferries and tug boats...)

[abbydancer2003]

Or you could do as we are doing. Take one ship from Seattle to Vancouver, spend one night in Vancouver and then take another ship from Vancouver to San Francisco.

 

We're doing exactly the same thing on the same cruises.

 

Just to hammer the point home...the PVSA applies to "carriers" and not to "ships" so a different ship of the same line would still be violating the PVSA...moving to a different carrier would be perfectly legal.

 

Thank you for this clarification - I've always wondered why I can't just change Princess ships on the same day, should they offer it. And that it's carrier not ship makes sense.

 

And I don't know if this has been directly answered yet, but the Golden can do the Hawaii run because it's a round trip from LA, and in that case, the PVSA only requires a foreign stop - can be a near port.

[2pbears]

We're doing exactly the same thing on the same cruises.

 

 

 

Thank you for this clarification - I've always wondered why I can't just change Princess ships on the same day, should they offer it. And that it's carrier not ship makes sense.

 

And I don't know if this has been directly answered yet, but the Golden can do the Hawaii run because it's a round trip from LA, and in that case, the PVSA only requires a foreign stop - can be a near port.

 

 

 

See you on board Abbydancer!

[MojoJones]

I just spoke with Princess. Apparently, it would be legal if we take the Golden from Seattle, spend the night in Vancouver, and take the Star back to San Francisco since we would be in the foreign port for over 24 hours. They also said as long as we were switching ships we would be okay.

[d-dubya]

I think they are right about the 24 hours...that makes it two trips...I think they are misinformed about the two different ships of the same line, if it were a same day thing...it's a pretty arcane law, though...