Comments re:HAL and Disabled Cruisers from another thread.....

xxoocruiser

 

Started cruising on HAL at the age of 30 when I was abled bodied and never found the age variance on board to impact my enjoyment.

 

Now am disabled and can assure you that HAL does NOT tailor their onboard services to people with disabilities. In fact it's my personal opinion that HAL does one of the worst jobs when it comes to disabled cruisers.

 

This quote was posted in another thread and I did not want to hi-jack the conversation away from where OP intended so I brought the quote here.

Could anyone expand on this and share their comments as to what is good and not so good on HAL for disabled cruisers?

Thanks.

This quote was posted in another thread and I did not want to hi-jack the conversation away from where OP intended so I brought the quote here.

 

Could anyone expand on this and share their comments as to what is good and not so good on HAL for disabled cruisers?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

Since it was my quote that you chose to highjack I'll respond.

It needs to be stressed that my comments are relative to my disability. Every person that has a disability is different and what some find to be a deterrent as to why to select one cruise line from another depends on that person's individual needs. With that stated I find HAL not to the best choice for my current situation and that's not to say that it's not a good Cruise Line. In fact prior to becoming disabled HAL was my cruise line preference. Now that I'm disabled, I find that RCCL is far more accessible and better suits my ability to continuing cruising. Reason in part may be that RCCL is a partner with the Make-A-Wish Foundation which may have heightened it's awareness to the world of accessible travel/cruising.

• IMO HAL has the least amount of handicap room relative to standard rooms than most other cruise lines.
  
• The HC balcony cabins on the Zaandam for example are very small for an accessible cabin. There's very little room to move about the cabin with any type of mobility aid. No I'm not referring to a Modified Accessible Cabin . It was indeed a Fully Accessible Cabin.
  
• The Eurodam which is HAL's newest ship is actually the least accessible of any of there other ships. Had you read the entire thread that you high jacked my post from you would have seen that some else posted a similar comment about the Eurodam.
  
• Though HAL specifically states on it's website and in it's accessibility brochure that each of their ships with the exception of the Prinsendam have a roll-on accessible tender, I have yet to be on a HAL ship in which a roll-on tender was ever used. When inquiring as to why it's not being used am given various responses.
  
• HAL does not have a chair lift for the pools or hot tub
  
• Many of the public washrooms on board their ships, though marked with the Universal HC insignia, cannot accommodate a wheelchair and or mobility scooter.
  
• There are places on some of their ships that can only be accessed by a manually operated chair lift and it's always difficult to find a staff person to operate it.
  
• Many of their ships do not have adequate Accessible seating in the main theater.
  
• Many of the doorways onto the public decks are not a zero threshold thus not allowing a wheelchair and or mobility scooter to go over it without getting hung up.
  

On the plus side of things the Cabin Steward, Waiters, Assistant Waiters and Matre'D do go out of their way to give excellent service but they also do that for any able bodied persons as should be expected.

I am confused at your repeated comments I hi-jacked the thread. My point in starting a new thread was to leave the other thread intact in the course it was taking.

I was very interested to read your comments and wanted more information. How could I have asked for the sort of information about which I was asking if not by starting a thread? :confused:

You seem upset with my quoting you but I was hoping you would explain your post I quoted. I certainly don't wish to upset you, am happy you answered but am very confused your upset.

You made a statement that HAL is among the worst in providing for disabled cruisers. I wanted to know why and if others agree with you.

How should I have sought that information without sidetracking the other thread?

I am confused at your repeated comments I hi-jacked the thread. My point in starting a new thread was to leave the other thread intact in the course it was taking.

 

I was very interested to read your comments and wanted more information. How could I have asked for the sort of information about which I was asking if not by starting a thread? :confused:

 

You seem upset with my quoting you but I was hoping you would explain your post I quoted. I certainly don't wish to upset you, am happy you answered but am very confused your upset.

 

You made a statement that HAL is among the worst in providing for disabled cruisers. I wanted to know why and if others agree with you.

 

How should I have sought that information without sidetracking the other thread?

 

 

Not upset at all and after re-reading it I understand now how you may of have thought that. :)

Basically I was just expanding for clarification purposes.

If you have any specific questions regarding HAL or even RCCL I would be happy to respond. As stated the points in my previous post are specific to my disability .

FYI, Eurodam is not HAL's newest ship. N. Amsterdam is, by at least two years, IIRC.

Your statement that HAL does not have lifts for the pools is incorrect. I have seen them on various ships.

Your statement that HAL does not have lifts for the pools is incorrect. I have seen them on various ships.

Have never been on any of the ships I've been on. Even asked if a portable lift was available when recently on the Zaandam and was told no by the ships staff.

FYI, Eurodam is not HAL's newest ship. N. Amsterdam is, by at least two years, IIRC.

Regardless, it's still not the best when it comes to accessibility. Do a search of the CC forums particularly the Disabled Cruise forum . In fact another poster on the thread that originally prompted this thread concurs with the lack of Accessibility on the Eurodam. Refer to Post # 10 on this link http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1903489

Regardless, it's still not the best when it comes to accessibility. Do a search of the CC forums particularly the Disabled Cruise forum . In fact another poster on the thread that originally prompted this thread concurs with the lack of Accessibility on the Eurodam. Refer to Post # 10 on this link http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1903489

I am not arguing with you about accessibility issues, as, even though we are heavily involved with Canine Companions for Independence, we have no specific experience or knowledge of accessibility issues on HAL ships. Simply correcting your statement that Eurodam is HAL's newest ship. It is not.

I was on Eurodam, which is a "newer" ship, and therefore should have had better access for many places. I booked SA 7058, a supposed accessible suite. While the room was large enough to handle my scooter ans was well appointed, that's the only good thing about the cabin. It was obvious that making this cabin an accessible one was nothing but an afterthought, and really cannot be considered either accessible, nor was it safe.

They obviously took a regular SA, made a couple changes (and not good changes), and called it accessible. I cannot tell you how bad the bathroom was, and how dangerous. All they did was to remove the walls for the shower, put a seat in and a grab bar, and that is their idea of accessible. First, the regular floor was left, which is very slippery marble---lovely, but horribly slippery when damp. They also didn't bother to slant the floor slightly towards the drain, so the entire bathroom floor flooded---and even the carpet in the dressing area got wet unless I rolled up a towel, put it on the floor in the doorway, to keep the shower water in the bathroom. Try walking, hobbling on that very slippery floor to get to your wheelchair or scooter---it was like walking on ice. Then, the shower head points right to the toilet, with nothing dividing the shower and toilet---you had to make sure to remove all toilet paper before turning on the shower or else you got soaking wet TP. Then, they put the towel rack 6 ft off the floor----my sister is 5'8" and ad to reach up to get the towels down for me. How the heck is someone in a wheelchair supposed to reach those towels? And there is no other place to store the clean towels. Second, someone in a wheelchair or scooter cannot get to the sink because the sink had a low skirt surrounding the sink, making it impossible to pull up to the sink.

Next was accessing the balcony. It's impossible with a scooter. While its ramped to the door, there is a very high lip at the top of the ramp, causing my scooter to get stuck----my sister had to literally drag me back into the cabin. And, I need to add, there were many doorways on the ship, ones that lead to the outer decks, that had that same lip---I saw others in scooters getting stuck on those doorways and were unable to get out on the public decks.

Then we had the bathrooms in the public areas. They are not accessible. The doors to access the bathrooms are recessed into alcoves, and wheelchairs and scooters don't have the maneuverability to make the very tight turn to get into the bathrooms. Yes, there are special accessible bathrooms, very out of the way in most instances, but the problem was, two of those bathrooms had automatic doors that were broken, and that made the bathrooms impossible. Even though I spoke to guest relations about the doors, they remained broken for the entire cruise.

Finally, the hallways in many of the public areas are very narrow, and trying to maneuver a wheelchair in those hallways is very, very difficult.

I wanted so badly to love this cruise, but I can say in all honesty, I cannot recommend Eurodam to anyone who uses a wheelchair or scooter.

I have to confess that I have never had any problems with Princess other than two rather minior ones. Last year, I did an interior accessible stateroom for the first time, and had problems getting in and out the hatch due to stewards leaving housekeeping carts parked there while they were off duty. A friendly call to the PSD got that taken care of quickly. The other problem is that the knee-knockers on the hatches to the outer decks are indeed too high for power chair to manage alone, had to have a push.

After having a few dozen cruises on HAL over the decades my late MIL was strongly advised on her last cruise not to return.

We always traveled with her as she grew older so she certainly had help, but HAL felt she was too disabled to return.

That's the facts.

While I am VERY sympathetic to those with disabilities, the fact remains that a ship is small and space onboard is at a premium. If they were to provide enough space for scooters and/or wheelchairs throughout the ship, the cost of cruising for everyone would necessarily go up. Sad, but it's "just the facts".

Our neighborhood pool is being forced into purchasing a pool lift (even though none of the members needs it - it is the law and they must comply). Instead of paying the high cost of purchasing one and having it installed (the cost of which would have to be passed along to the members), we are considering just closing the pool!! I mention this due to the continuing discussion concerning how cruise lines are cutting "perks" to keep costs low. Forcing cruiselines to accommodate every request, whether it be additional space for the mobility challenged or specialty foods for those with gluten allergies, etc. only adds to their bottom line. They are then forced to remove something or increase the cost of the cruise.

What do you suggest they do?

I hear your plight and DO understand your concerns....I am not being ugly in that comment, just being brutally honest. They are in the business of making money and they are bound by their shareholders.

Sail, my DH is handicapped and we have sailed on both Princess and HAL before and after he became confined to a wheelchair.

I have been disappointed in HAL.

The Zaandam was for the most part great. We had our first (and probably only) suite so had plenty of room. The crew was great for assisting us on and off the ship. In one port, the ramp was so steep, there were 3 switchbacks. Three people guided his chair. I wasn't allowed to push my DH in the dining room; that was "their job" which they did with a smile. All this was done without us asking. It just happened and we were very grateful.

I was extremely disappointed in their Shore Excursion office. Among other issues, they told us there was no handicap tender on the ship. Even though another CC poster had gone through the same thing with them a cruise or two before. We assume there was one, but the day we were to use it for Kona, we were told it was broke and needed a part. We were on the cruise for 30 + more days and the part was never received.

The only other issue we had with the Zaandam, is my DH got stuck in a public washroom when he was on his scooter. Luckily, a crewmember was able to help him.

We were very disappointed with the Noordam. The handicapped veranda cabin was extremely small especially compared to the veranda cabin we had on Princess. We had to have some furniture removed so he could have room to back out of the room. We found the Queen's lounge very unfriendly. There were no ramps to get to the culinary center so for the wine tasting and the movie we attended, we had to sit along the back tables - away from the rest of the participants. We watched many people with canes and walkers struggle up and down the stairs. A simple ramp, would have made life easier for many cruisers.

The most disappointing is the Veendam. We want to do the Voyage of the Vikings but the highest level of handicapped cabin is a Lanaii. The only outsides are also on the Promenade deck - which means our drapes have to be closed once it gets dark. That is definitely a deal breaker for me.

While we haven't given up completely on HAL, our next two cruises are booked on Princess.

While I am VERY sympathetic to those with disabilities, the fact remains that a ship is small and space onboard is at a premium. If they were to provide enough space for scooters and/or wheelchairs throughout the ship, the cost of cruising for everyone would necessarily go up. Sad, but it's "just the facts"

 

I hear your plight and DO understand your concerns....I am not being ugly in that comment, just being brutally honest. They are in the business of making money and they are bound by their shareholders.

Carole, are you kidding me? Ships are not small unless you're on a 204 passenger Seabourn ship, and I've been on those ships, and their walkways were more roomy than on the 2100 passenger Eurodam. Please explain how on God's green earth that having wider walkways on the public decks of a behemoth cruise ship affects the bottom line? How would it make your cruise fare go up? Hallways on the public decks have absolutely nothing to do with what you pay for your cruise.

Providing gluten free or vegetarian food isn't going to make your cruise fare increase, either.

I daresay that if you, or someone you love, would find themselves in a wheelchair sometime in the future, I know you'd change your tune. But it's quite obvious you have no idea on what it's like to be disabled, nor do you understand the economics of running a cruise ship. But to blame the disabled and those with food intolerance for the cost cutting on cruise ships is TOTALLY wrong. We disabled have been cruising for a long time, way before all this cost cutting started, so we're not the cause of all this.

Seriously, these have to be some of the most uninformed, and incorrect, comments I have ever read on these boards. Sheesh, blaming the cost cutting on cruise ships on the disabled and those with food allergies. Amazing.

I don't see how Carole's points are incorrect. Services that seem minor all add to increased staffing needs. When you call to arrange special accommodations or foods, someone who takes your call has an increased workload. When it takes extra staff to transport wheelchair passengers around and/or off the ship, that adds to staffing costs. The extra planning and coordination of vegetarian, gluten free, kosher menus increases costs.

I would imagine that anyone who knows anything about architecture and building could verify that increasing the size of ANYTHING adds to the cost. If you add an extra 10 inches to a room in your home as you build a home, does not the cost of the house go up? Space on all ships is precious and needs to be well thought out. So, wider hallways on a ship affects costs and perhaps eliminating other spaces on that ship.

Yes, all the extra services such as kids' clubs add to the cost too. I'm not disagreeing with any of these accommodations, but surely they add to the cost of cruising for everyone.

So far I do not have to use either a wheelchair or a scooter -- when that time comes -- I am done with traveling and cruising.

I use a walker/rollator and have encountered problems on HAL -- especially with the handicapped bathrooms. Some of them are very small and it is apparent that they were after thoughts.

So far I do not have to book a handicapped cabin.

The show room is another issue. I have to sit in the wheelchair area as there is no place for walker/rollators and I do not like taking up a space for a person who is in worse condition that I am in.

And tender ports -- I can not handle the steps to get down to the tenders -- nightmare.

Oh Kitty,

Maybe you should tone it down a tad!

First, I work with people with disabilities. One of my co-workers is a C4-5 quad. He types with a poker he holds in his teeth! He cruises a lot and in fact is the one that got me interested in the first place. He and I have had numerous conversations about the obstacles and what could/can be done. Besides that my neighbor has a brain tumor (and I assist her with many day-to-day activities which she is unable to do herself, eg. washing her hair!!) and I have another good friend who needs a scooter to get around....So, yes, I do think I have a some "idea on what it's like to be disabled".

I don't think I EVER suggested that people with disabilities or food allergies were to blame for the cut-backs in cruise services. I simply mentioned that as a cruise line caters to different needs, those needs add expenses. Those needs also include the increased cost of food in general, increased cost of fuel, increased cost of labor, mechanical issues, and the list goes on. I DO understand that as prices increase any business must make difficult decisions (I am not an economist, but I did stay at Holiday Inn last night :cool:). Airlines had to add seats to their planes to adjust for rising costs. This means that the remaining seats have less legroom. Which would you prefer: for you to pay the same price with less legroom or to pay more for your seat? I'm guessing people want the cheap seats....and the cheap cruises!

Adding space to hallways means space has to be taken away somewhere. In public venues, this isn't as much of an issue as it is on the levels where rooms are located. If you make the hallways larger, rooms must get smaller. The "behemoth cruise ships" can be designed wider to accommodate this, but the smaller, older ships had to work with what they had. Until those older ships go out of service, they will have mobility concerns.

Cruising is a business and the cruise lines are bound by their shareholders. They walk a very fine line trying to make both sides happy.

I travel a great deal for work and for pleasure. I've noticed over the past few years that many ships and hotels even in the USA are far less willing to make any attempt to help disabled people than previously.

I've heard all the excuses.

All of us should be able to travel as long as we care to and to not be shut down by laziness by travel providers.....laziness and a hunt for every penny of profit.

My own 'issues' were caused by a terrible accident made worse by poor initial medical care. It has taken me years to get somewhat back to normal. Over those years I continued to do my job, travel, take vacation cruises and to see the world from the point of view of a disabled person. An aging disabled person.

It has been one heck of a learning experience.

Often I was assisted by kind strangers and ignored by travel professionals. I will stand up for the rights of the disabled as long as I can do so which I intend to be a very long time.

I travel a great deal for work and for pleasure. I've noticed over the past few years that many ships and hotels even in the USA are far less willing to make any attempt to help disabled people than previously.

 

I've heard all the excuses.

 

All of us should be able to travel as long as we care to and to not be shut down by laziness by travel providers.....laziness and a hunt for every penny of profit.

 

My own 'issues' were caused by a terrible accident made worse by poor initial medical care. It has taken me years to get somewhat back to normal. Over those years I continued to do my job, travel, take vacation cruises and to see the world from the point of view of a disabled person. An aging disabled person.

 

It has been one heck of a learning experience.

 

Often I was assisted by kind strangers and ignored by travel professionals. I will stand up for the rights of the disabled as long as I can do so which I intend to be a very long time.

Looking for the "like" button.

A visit to WDW while using a wheelchair gave me an entirely different perspective on this issue . . . And they were/are way better at the accessibility game than cruise lines. It was a learning experience I was pleased to rehab out of.

On a side note, if the expense of a pool lift is too much and would bankrupt a community swim club, seems like it is not "readily achievable" and the club doesn't have to comply.

Looking for the "like" button.

 

A visit to WDW while using a wheelchair gave me an entirely different perspective on this issue . . . And they were/are way better at the accessibility game than cruise lines. It was a learning experience I was pleased to rehab out of.

 

On a side note, if the expense of a pool lift is too much and would bankrupt a community swim club, seems like it is not "readily achievable" and the club doesn't have to comply.

Thanks for the attempt at the LIKE button!

I suppose I knew from Day One that my injury was going to be life changing, but I didn't realize that it would be educational as well.

I did not attempt anything like WDW while in poor shape but I did a lot of flying (and crying) as I struggled through airports and on to and off of shuttle buses.

One of my early goals was to be able to walk out of the front door of my own house, down to stairs and to walk about 50 feet to my own road side mailbox. Those 2 stairs may have been a prison for me as I could not manag them at all for a long time. My first half successful escape attempt resulted in me having to use my cell phone to request that someone in my own house come out and fetch me back in.

Humble isn't the word for it.

One of my least favorite hotels is one that we use often for meetings. there is a step down from the lobby to the conference area. One step but no handrail or even a warning that the step is there. The management finally put yellow tape on the tile as so many folks had fallen but that one miserable step is an absolute barrier to anyone with a wheeled mobility device.

The hotel is standing on its claim to being grandfathered in as a result of being an old hotel.

There is no elevator work around as the conference center was added on.

For ConnieG and Carole. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough when talking about public walkways on ships. I did not reference the hallways where passenger decks are located, but the fully public decks on Eurodam. For instance, going from the casino to a show lounge, the walkway is narrow and to add to the problem, HAL put chairs along the wall, making it even more narrow. Two walking people cannot even walk side by side in that hallway, much less fit a wheelchair. In the buffet, they put tables just a few feet from where people stand in line to get their food---those tables and chairs run along the whole length of the buffet. Even able bodied people have problems getting through. Neither of these issues have anything to do with the cost of ship building, just stupid design and furniture placement.

And, I did not say that this is an issue with every ship, because this thread IS about Holland America. In all honesty, the things I pointed out are issues with HAL, and not any other line.

Connie, cruise line employees DO NOT transport disabled passengers around cruise ships. The only time that happens is for embarkation and disembarkation, and those who do that are NOT hired to specifically do that----they are assistant waiters, pool deck crew and other crew who do their main jobs once the ship sails. Those that assist EVERYONE in getting off the ship in ports, are again crew members who have multiple jobs and don't just work the gangway. So, with all due respect, your comment about hiring "extra staff to transport wheelchair passengers around" is incorrect. In reality, the cruise contract specifically states that the disabled must either be totally self sufficient or must bring their own traveling companion. As a matter of fact, a man was literally put off a ship when he assumed his butler would physically assist him with things like toileting and showers. He was told he could hire an assistant, he refused, and was put off at the first port. So, as you can see, they won't/don't hire extra staff to assist the disabled

We are a little puzzled why the OP decided to start this thread here rather then on the HA blog (where she is quite active). Not sure of all the issues regarding handicapped (are we allowed to use this term in the PC era?) but we have noticed that the layout of the Lido buffet on most HA ships does not leave a lot of space for wheelchairs or scooters to maneuver. Have no idea about the handicapped cabins on HA since we have no need for these facilities.

Hank

We are a little puzzled why the OP decided to start this thread here rather then on the HA blog (where she is quite active). Not sure of all the issues regarding handicapped (are we allowed to use this term in the PC era?) but we have noticed that the layout of the Lido buffet on most HA ships does not leave a lot of space for wheelchairs or scooters to maneuver. Have no idea about the handicapped cabins on HA since we have no need for these facilities.

 

Hank

It's called hijacking...EXACTLY what the OP said she WASN'T going to do!:eek:

The part about this whole deal that I LOVE is the previous thread OP FOLLOWED this OP!!!:D:D

Now back to Whether or Not HAL is Accessible, now apparently available on SEVERAL CHANNELS! Check your local listings...:p

A company the puts, "stuff" in the walkways....say it's not so!!!!! Try going to the grocery store sometime! They have displays all over the place! Cluttering aisles is certainly not confined to cruise ships!!

The number of tables in the buffet area has to be high to accommodate all that want to eat there. Yes, we have had difficulty navigating the chairs and people, so I do understand how it would be especially difficult with mobility issues. The issue again comes down to limited space. I equalitie these types of things to a long balloon. You can make one end smaller, but it makes the other end bigger. Adding more room to the buffet means you must take something away. What might be unimportant to you (for the sake of argument, let's say it is the casino) is very important to another. You say we should eliminate the casino so there is more space to expand the buffet. Another person doesn't eat in the buffet, only the MDR or specialty restaurants, so they see no need for the buffet at all....but the casino is very important to them.

Again, to my point..cruising is a business. Space on a cruise ship is limited and they are trying to please the most number of people possible. That doesn't make some things "right", but they are what they are. I am sure they understand that some of their choices will drive some away. The problem is that attrition is built into the model....they will attract others and let you fall to the wayside. They like new cruisers, ones that buy pictures, drinks, art and excursions. Those of us that cruise for the ports and enjoyment aren't money makers. If you complain, they will weigh your request only to the bottom line.

As in my previous post, sadly....it's the facts....doesn't make it right, but it is a cold, bitter pill we swallow.