Cruising without a Passport is Nutz- Part 2

[boogs]

But I am opposed to those who exagerate the risk and are insistant the closed loop cruisers need to get a passport when they don't have to.

 

If your intention is truly to inform the ignorant masses of people who cannot read the regulations on their own, I highly recommend that you take a less abrasive and judgmental approach to doing so. I'm sure, in all of your great wisdom and experience, you've heard the idiom, "you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." My $0.02.

 

I have been reading these boards for quite some time, and Hlitner is one of the many on this board who provide relevant, accurate and unbiased information for all of us to learn from. To question his motives, or his style, is uncalled for. Every post he has made that I am aware of has been for the betterment of the cruising public. I do not question what he says - and neither should you.

 

That you may disagree does in no way undermine the value of what he has posted.

[boogs]

I really don't care if someone has a passport or not, I was just curious why some chose not to get one. Personally, I don't think the cost is an issue, it is one of the cheapest parts of my vacation, especially when divided up over 10 years.

 

I agree. If someone can afford a cruise, they certainly can afford to protect themselves by getting a passport and renewing it every 10 years. Amortized over 10 years, that's only around $12 per year - about what a single alcoholic drink or two premium coffee drinks costs on a cruise ship.

[Jasalth]

I will say EVERYONE who travels anywhere, or might forget somethings at times (aka. lost or stolen purses or wallets!) needs a Passport.

 

A Passport is a lot more useful than just for traveling, and I don't think that is what people get about them. It is the ONLY ID you need for 10 years as an adult, and 5 years as a child.

 

Lost your drivers license? Walk in with a Passport and you get a new one no hassle. Wallet stolen with your bank card? You STILL have a valid ID! All jobs will accept a Passport as the only form of ID you need for your W-9. Even for teenagers, a Passport is all they need to apply for a drivers license. Want to be on a reality TV show that goes someplace? You need a Passport before they will even consider your application.

 

In 10 years time, it costs me $80 to renew my Drivers License in Pennsylvania. It isn't much cheaper than a Passport. It is a photo ID with the "perk" of being able to drive. A Passport is a photo ID with the perk of being able to travel.

 

As a family of 4 who travels, I can't imagine having to pull out 8+ documents just so we can go somewhere. Not like I am going to hand important documents to my kids to hold! People spend money each day to make their lives easier, I am not sure why people don't grasp that a Passport is just something you can get to make your life easier!

[BruceMuzz]

Until a few years ago, just about everyone who cruised had a passport. At the same time, cruise lines charged far more for cruises and could afford to leave a few cabins empty on every cruise for emergency purposes.

Now that cruising has adopted the WalMart business model, all cabins must be sold before every cruise. This policy creates hardship for passengers who are living in malfunctioning cabins, as well as for ship staff who are trying to make them happy.

 

But we still have a Plan B. Today we have enough American passengers who - for whatever good or bad reasons - do not travel with a passport. Every voyage, we meet at least one couple who did not entirely understand the concept, and do not have the proper paperwork (proper birth certificate, valid DL, etc) that allows us to board them.

They unfortunately cannot sail.

 

But that gives us an empty cabin that can be used in case of emergency.

In the worst case, we do not need it and can sell it as an upgrade. Most cruise lines give a small bonus to crew who sell upgrades, so nearly everybody wins - except the pax who could not take their cruise, since they did not have a passport.

[Hlitner]

I've never checked what cruise lines say or do not say about passports since we travel with them. Is the above new, considering the last Carnival episode, or have they always had this in their information? Just curious.

 

BTW, many young first time cruisers choose lines other than Carnival.;):)

 

To be totally honest we do not know how long Carnival (and nearly every other cruise line) have posted that type of info on their web site. But for those who will only cruise with a Birth Certificate we would really urge them to very carefully check the latest Birth Certificate rules when it comes to Closed-Loop cruises. What originally got us interested in this entire topic was when we took a RCI closed-loop cruise out of MIA and personally saw a family in near hysterics because they were denied boarding (and had to return home at their own expense). Apparently one of the family member's Passports was not deemed to meet requirements. In fact, there are many Birth Certificates now floating around that no longer meet CBPs requirements so folks need to be very vigilant about their documents.

 

In the interests or further disclosure here is the info right from the RCI website (so I do not get accused of being nasty or making things up):

 

 

"Please take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with the required travel documents. The requirements described below are required by government regulations and policies. They are subject to change without notice.

 

Royal Caribbean International strongly recommends that all guests travel with a passport that is valid for at least 6 months beyond the end of the cruise.

 

It is the sole responsibility of the guest to identify and obtain all required travel documents for the entire cruise vacation and have them available when necessary. These appropriate, valid travel documents - passports, visas, family legal documents and inoculation certificates - are required for boarding and re-entry into the United States and other countries.

 

Guests who do not possess the proper documentation may be prevented from boarding their flight or ship or from entering a country and may be subject to fines.

 

No refunds will be given to individuals who fail to bring proper documentation."

 

 

Personally, a long government career taught me to not put myself into a position of being totally dependent on 1 or 2 officials to make an "on the spot" decision such as what is a valid Birth Certificate. When you use a Birth Certificate you are at the total mercy of the official who looks at that document. If they decide it does not meet muster, you will be denied boarding. You can rant, rave, cry, etc. but you will still will not get on that ship....even if the official is wrong! The cruise lines have all posted passport recommendations because they have to deal with the very unhappy folks who are denied boarding.

 

Hank

[Warm Breezes]

I will say EVERYONE who travels anywhere, or might forget somethings at times (aka. lost or stolen purses or wallets!) needs a Passport.

 

A Passport is a lot more useful than just for traveling, and I don't think that is what people get about them. It is the ONLY ID you need for 10 years as an adult, and 5 years as a child.

 

Lost your drivers license? Walk in with a Passport and you get a new one no hassle. Wallet stolen with your bank card? You STILL have a valid ID! All jobs will accept a Passport as the only form of ID you need for your W-9. Even for teenagers, a Passport is all they need to apply for a drivers license. Want to be on a reality TV show that goes someplace? You need a Passport before they will even consider your application.

 

In 10 years time, it costs me $80 to renew my Drivers License in Pennsylvania. It isn't much cheaper than a Passport. It is a photo ID with the "perk" of being able to drive. A Passport is a photo ID with the perk of being able to travel.

 

As a family of 4 who travels, I can't imagine having to pull out 8+ documents just so we can go somewhere. Not like I am going to hand important documents to my kids to hold! People spend money each day to make their lives easier, I am not sure why people don't grasp that a Passport is just something you can get to make your life easier!

 

DH and I are both 46 years old. We have taken at least one major trip each year since our honeymoon when we were 22. We have never NEEDED a passport in any of our travels or for anything else for that matter....not even once.

[cruisemom42]

I have a passport and don't travel without it.

 

That said, I do understand folks who choose to travel on these closed-loop cruises without a passport, as long as they fully understand the situation. I believe most of the people who've posted on this thread would meet that criteria.

 

However (and this is a big however), if it's one thing I've learned by talking to people on various cruises, it's that a LOT of people read Cruise Critic as a source of information without ever posting. Some are new cruisers/travelers. So I think it's very important to raise this issue from time to time, just so people are informed about passports -- when they are needed, what documentation is REQUIRED if not using a passport, and what the risks are for traveling without one.

 

I'm constantly surprised by how few people actually seek out this information on the cruise lines' website (or read the information provided by the cruise line about their cruise requirements). And unfortunately, it seems that without some "controversy" people just don't pay attention!

 

For people seeking stories, there was a long thread on the HAL boards a few weeks ago (I tried searching, couldn't locate it) about a man who was refused boarding on a HAL cruise because he didn't have proper documentation. He had been born outside the US (although a US citizen) and despite calling HAL reps ahead of time -- who told him that the documentation he possessed was fine for boarding -- he got to the ship and was denied boarding. There was a lot of back and forth, and some people thought HAL owed him something for having misinformed him. But the fact is that the individual is responsible for ensuring they have proper ID, visas, paperwork, etc. to board -- not the cruise line.

 

If he'd had a passport, there wouldn't have been a problem. Instead, he missed his cruise.

[Warm Breezes]

I have a passport and don't travel without it.

 

That said, I do understand folks who choose to travel on these closed-loop cruises without a passport, as long as they fully understand the situation. I believe most of the people who've posted on this thread would meet that criteria.

 

However (and this is a big however), if it's one thing I've learned by talking to people on various cruises, it's that a LOT of people read Cruise Critic as a source of information without ever posting. Some are new cruisers/travelers. So I think it's very important to raise this issue from time to time, just so people are informed about passports -- when they are needed, what documentation is REQUIRED if not using a passport, and what the risks are for traveling without one.

 

I'm constantly surprised by how few people actually seek out this information on the cruise lines' website (or read the information provided by the cruise line about their cruise requirements). And unfortunately, it seems that without some "controversy" people just don't pay attention!

 

For people seeking stories, there was a long thread on the HAL boards a few weeks ago (I tried searching, couldn't locate it) about a man who was refused boarding on a HAL cruise because he didn't have proper documentation. He had been born outside the US (although a US citizen) and despite calling HAL reps ahead of time -- who told him that the documentation he possessed was fine for boarding -- he got to the ship and was denied boarding. There was a lot of back and forth, and some people thought HAL owed him something for having misinformed him. But the fact is that the individual is responsible for ensuring they have proper ID, visas, paperwork, etc. to board -- not the cruise line.

 

If he'd had a passport, there wouldn't have been a problem. Instead, he missed his cruise.

 

If he had done proper research before traveling and had the right paperwork, there wouldn't have been a problem either:rolleyes:. It all comes down to personal responsibility. How many times have we read where people with passports find out theirs is missing right before a vacation where it is needed...again personal responsibility.

[bigwally]

DH and I are both 46 years old. We have taken at least one major trip each year since our honeymoon when we were 22. We have never NEEDED a passport in any of our travels or for anything else for that matter....not even once.

 

 

And let me offer that I am 51 years old; have taken major trips pretty much every year since I was 18 too (sometimes twice a year); and have needed a passport for just about all of them. And I feel richer for experiencing a variety of other cultures in a way I never could have while limited to a diet of closed-loop cruises and visits to Canada or Mexico. But each to their own.

[cruisemom42]

There was a lot of back and forth, and some people thought HAL owed him something for having misinformed him. But the fact is that the individual is responsible for ensuring they have proper ID, visas, paperwork, etc. to board -- not the cruise line.

 

If he'd had a passport, there wouldn't have been a problem. Instead, he missed his cruise.

 

If he had done proper research before traveling and had the right paperwork, there wouldn't have been a problem either:rolleyes:. It all comes down to personal responsibility.

 

I thought I made that very clear in my post. :confused:

 

 

Edited to add:

 

I located the thread I mentioned above:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1790403&highlight=denied+boarding

 

 

This first-time cruiser had clear proof that HAL advised him incorrectly about the requirements. One feels sorry for him as a new cruiser and one who apparently tried to make sure he had what was needed. Yet, as we agree, ultimately the responsibility rests with him, not with HAL.

 

This is why I feel discussion of these issues is very valuable to some.

[sail7seas]

Prior to 9-11, DH and I were flying AA to Florida to catch a cruise.

We showed our passports at the airport to check in and the agent at the desk asked 'why are you using passports seeing you are flying domestic?' This, from a 'travel professional'? When we responded because we will be cruising, she was okay with it but there was a real sense of her not trusting us in some way because we were 'over documenting' in her opinion.

 

Today, it is a very different atmosphere and that situation/discomfort would never arise. It was so awkward, I've never forgotten it.

 

My how things have changed.

[Warm Breezes]

And let me offer that I am 51 years old; have taken major trips pretty much every year since I was 18 too (sometimes twice a year); and have needed a passport for just about all of them. And I feel richer for experiencing a variety of other cultures in a way I never could have while limited to a diet of closed-loop cruises and visits to Canada or Mexico. But each to their own.

 

 

Who says we just do closed loop cruises??? We live in a great big country with areas that have cultures all their own. We have been to many places through out the good old USA with many more we want to see before we are even interested in going else where. I'm betting I've been to many places you haven't been and vice versa. Personally we haven't had the time or inclination to travel further out than we currently do. I don't need to see the world through your eyes. I'm having fun seeing it through my own:rolleyes: and guess what...I haven't needed a passport to see any of it:D. My point is we all have different travel wants and needs....who are you to judge what is best for me and mine? I don't judge you...

[Algebralovr]

Prior to 9-11, DH and I were flying AA to Florida to catch a cruise.

We showed our passports at the airport to check in and the agent at the desk asked 'why are you using passports seeing you are flying domestic?' This, from a 'travel professional'? When we responded because we will be cruising, she was okay with it but there was a real sense of her not trusting us in some way because we were 'over documenting' in her opinion.

 

Today, it is a very different atmosphere and that situation/discomfort would never arise. It was so awkward, I've never forgotten it.

 

My how things have changed.

 

Stuff like that actually still happens. Last March, we flew with our then 16 year old son from St Louis to Orlando. When we went through the TSA checkpoint, the agent actually made a point of telling the son that he was not required to show ID and should have handed his boarding pass to the agent with a parent and without his own ID.

 

On the way back, we saw a number of people slowing down the line as the TSA questioned them since the children didn't have ID. So our son took out his ID and handed it to the TSA agent as we went through. The agent looked at the ID, said the ID was not needed but thanked him, and passed us through.

 

Why did they make a point of telling us that his ID was not necessary? He has it, and it made it faster.

 

Two years previously, when I flew alone with our DD and she was 16, another agent demanded to see her ID on the way out. Good thing she had one, since she wasn't driving yet. I wonder what they would have done if she had not had a state issued ID?

 

Personally, I'm glad CBP is at least consistent.

[broberts]

I really don't care if someone has a passport or not, I was just curious why some chose not to get one. Personally, I don't think the cost is an issue, it is one of the cheapest parts of my vacation, especially when divided up over 10 years.

 

 

The "it's economical when spread over 10 years" argument fails for many who do not habitually travel outside the US and/or who have children under 16.

 

Consider a family of 4, with 2 under 16. A family that has never vacationed outside the continental US. A family who have decided to take for the first time, a 5 day Caribbean cruise to see if they might like that type of vacation. Perhaps they've elected to book adjoining balcony cabins. Cruise fare per person $460. Cost per adult passport $165, or 36% of cruise fare. Cost per minor passport $120, or 26% of cruise fare.

 

Faced with this situation, not knowing if the passports will ever be needed again, I suspect I'd opt for BC and photo ID. The money saved would be far better spent on travel insurance and excursions.

[bigwally]

Prior to 9-11, DH and I were flying AA to Florida to catch a cruise.

We showed our passports at the airport to check in and the agent at the desk asked 'why are you using passports seeing you are flying domestic?' This, from a 'travel professional'? When we responded because we will be cruising, she was okay with it but there was a real sense of her not trusting us in some way because we were 'over documenting' in her opinion.

 

Today, it is a very different atmosphere and that situation/discomfort would never arise. It was so awkward, I've never forgotten it.

 

My how things have changed.

 

 

 

The exact same thing happened to us at the Canada/US border crossing when coming back in from a visit to BC - FAR more suspicion over us using passports to return than if we'd just used our driver's licenses and oraly declared as US Citizens.

 

But, as you point out, this was probably 1998 or 1999...a whole different world!

[swsfrail]

Faced with this situation, not knowing if the passports will ever be needed again, I suspect I'd opt for BC and photo ID. The money saved would be far better spent on travel insurance and excursions.

 

That's akin to saying that when taking a road trip it would be far better to spend the money on maps and gas than on getting the brakes fixed since you don't know if you will ever be in an emergency situation where you need them to work perfectly. Not wise, in my opinion. You may never be in such an emergency situation, but if you ever are, you want them to work at their top efficiency.

[broberts]

That's akin to saying that when taking a road trip it would be far better to spend the money on maps and gas than on getting the brakes fixed since you don't know if you will ever be in an emergency situation where you need them to work perfectly. Not wise, in my opinion. You may never be in such an emergency situation, but if you ever are, you want them to work at their top efficiency.

 

The brakes analogy is far from a good one. Working brakes are an absolute requirement to drive. On does not require a passport on a closed loop cruise.

 

Not having a passport and having to fly back from a non US port in a non-life threatening emergency simply means a delay and extra paperwork. That is all. There is no dangerous risk involved. It is simply a question of how much the process will cost and how long it will take.

[i5trucker]

The "it's economical when spread over 10 years" argument fails for many who do not habitually travel outside the US and/or who have children under 16.

 

Consider a family of 4, with 2 under 16. A family that has never vacationed outside the continental US. A family who have decided to take for the first time, a 5 day Caribbean cruise to see if they might like that type of vacation. Perhaps they've elected to book adjoining balcony cabins. Cruise fare per person $460. Cost per adult passport $165, or 36% of cruise fare. Cost per minor passport $120, or 26% of cruise fare.

 

Faced with this situation, not knowing if the passports will ever be needed again, I suspect I'd opt for BC and photo ID. The money saved would be far better spent on travel insurance and excursions.

 

 

That is why I started the sentence with the word "personally". However, using your example, I would still opt for getting passports for my family, but that is just how I roll.

[dwjoe]

Now, regarding some of those who prefer to travel without a Passport and question why others (such as moi) bring up the issue...the answer is quite simple. There are many new and relatively uninformed cruisers who read CC hoping to pick-up tips and learn about the cruising world. These folks usually benefit from being fully informed about this issue and some of us that routinely post on CC are passionate in trying to post information that might be helpful to the lesser informed. Since many younger travelers start their cruising experience on Carnival I thought I would post the thoughts of Carnival Cruise Lines on the Passport subject:

 

"Carnival highly recommends all guests travel with a passport (valid for at least six months beyond completion of travel). Although a passport is not required for U.S. citizens taking cruises that begin & end in the same U.S. port, travelling with a passport enhances your disembarkation experience, as delays may be expected upon your return to the U.S. if you do not have one. Additionally, passports make it easier for you to fly from the U.S. to a foreign port should you miss your scheduled port of embarkation, or need to fly back to the U.S. for emergency reasons."

 

Now, regarding some of those who prefer to travel without a Passport and question why others (such as moi) bring up the issue...the answer is quite simple. There are many new and relatively uninformed cruisers who read CC hoping to pick-up tips and learn about the cruising world. These folks usually benefit from being fully informed about this issue and some of us that routinely post on CC are passionate in trying to post information that might be helpful to the lesser informed. Since many younger travelers start their cruising experience on Carnival I thought I would post the thoughts of Carnival Cruise Lines on the Passport subject:

 

 

"Carnival highly recommends all guests travel with a passport (valid for at least six months beyond completion of travel). Although a passport is not required for U.S. citizens taking cruises that begin & end in the same U.S. port, travelling with a passport enhances your disembarkation experience, as delays may be expected upon your return to the U.S. if you do not have one. Additionally, passports make it easier for you to fly from the U.S. to a foreign port should you miss your scheduled port of embarkation, or need to fly back to the U.S. for emergency reasons."

 

If this had been your OP I would have had far less objection.

 

 

If you or any other poster wishes to inform others about cases where a passport is required, and the advantages of owning one, the specific risks of traveling without one, and the cruise lines recommendations I am fine with that.

 

 

But it's never about that, as your OP demonstrates. The pro-passport crowd is all about hyping exaggerated second hand stories as "proof" that everyone needs a passport. And when called out with rational analysis, they either have nothing to say or revert to pat answers and scornful remarks. I still await your response to my quantitative analysis of the risk you cited as "proof" that everyone needs a passport.

 

Personally, we must have Passports since we travel all over the world.

 

Wonder how many other pro-passport posters also have a passport because they have to? I am baffled by frequent international air travelers lecturing non-air travelers that "they would never travel without a passport" when in fact their travel needs are completely different.