Istanbul - head scarfs

[lynn2002]

I will be taking a headscarf for myself when visiting mosques in Istanbul, however, does my 10 year old daughter also have to cover her head (and not wear shorts)?

[KirkNC]

As far as I know she will but if my memory is correct they will have scarfs at the mosques. At least the larger ones.

[Keith1010]

No shorts as you said.

 

A head scarf will most likely be required.

 

Age is not a factor. I would bring a scarf for your daughter.

 

Keith

[texancruzer]

Actually we have been a couple of times to the Blue Mosque (as well as mosques in Egypt and other locales) and have never been required to cover our heads……. one guide even said a few Muslims find it offensive if non-Muslims do so. But most do not.

 

but no shorts and make sure your arms are covered. I wore sleeves almost to my elbows and that wasn't good enough. They gave me a large blue napkin looking thing to cover my arms with….. funny thing I started to put it on my head and she shook her head and indicated it was for my arms :D

[6rugrats]

Actually we have been a couple of times to the Blue Mosque (as well as mosques in Egypt and other locales) and have never been required to cover our heads……. one guide even said a few Muslims find it offensive if non-Muslims do so. But most do not.

 

 

I agree; neither you nor your daughter will be required to cover your head. You will have to remove your shoes.

[cruisemom42]

Actually we have been a couple of times to the Blue Mosque (as well as mosques in Egypt and other locales) and have never been required to cover our heads……. one guide even said a few Muslims find it offensive if non-Muslims do so. But most do not.

 

 

This can vary greatly. I've never had to cover my head at the Blue Mosque, but I have had to do so at other mosques in Turkey and in Egypt. And some travelers have reported being asked to cover even at the Blue Mosque.

 

The best advice is: dress modestly (always required) and carry a scarf in case. Follow the lead of either the personnel or your guide if in doubt.

Edited June 29, 2014 by cruisemom42

[Keith1010]

My advice is very simple.

 

Bring the scarves.

 

If you need them you will have them. If you don't then you won't use them.

 

Things change. They are not the same forever.

 

Be prepared.

 

We are not talking about lugging around a 20 pound bowling ball.

 

Keith

[Hlitner]

As far as I know she will but if my memory is correct they will have scarfs at the mosques. At least the larger ones.

 

Well, to quote DW, "there is no way I would ever put one of those scarfs on my head. You have no idea where they have been!"

 

And of course she is correct. Not sure women or girls would be wise to use one of those "public scarfs" as they might find little critters in their hair after the experience :). DW always carries a scarf in her purse when we are Muslim countries and it would be no big deal to carry a 2nd one for a child.

 

Hank

[Keith1010]

Well, to quote DW, "there is no way I would ever put one of those scarfs on my head. You have no idea where they have been!"

 

And of course she is correct. Not sure women or girls would be wise to use one of those "public scarfs" as they might find little critters in their hair after the experience :). DW always carries a scarf in her purse when we are Muslim countries and it would be no big deal to carry a 2nd one for a child.

 

Hank

 

That's what we do.

 

There is a saying. Better to play it safe then be sorry.

 

Keith

[Hlitner]

That's what we do.

 

There is a saying. Better to play it safe then be sorry.

 

Keith

 

LOL Keith. You probably know, from our posts, that we are not one who play it safe when it comes to travel. But do not mess with DWs hair :).

 

Hank

Edited June 30, 2014 by Hlitner

[Keith1010]

Hank, as they say in life there are priorities and when it comes to hair for some that is a priority. My wife is the same way.

 

Keith

[lynn2002]

Thanks for the advice. I will take another headscarf for my daughter just in case (I'm also concerned re using the borrowed ones).

 

I hadn't realised we are not allowed to show our arms - I thought it was just shoulders. Will have to take something lightweight to slip on before we go in.

[texancruzer]

To clarify….except for that first trip, I too always carry a scarf. Live and learn.

 

But I carry a large one :D That way it covers my head AND my arms or either or as the case may be……..

 

In Cairo, Egypt one day I actually wore slacks and a cami with a long sleeve lightweight shirt over that. The shirt was long and I tied a long scarf as a belt. When needed I could take it off and voila' -

Edited June 30, 2014 by texancruzer

[janbakes]

LOVE the sarcasm in some of these replies! Very entertaining.

 

Soooo, what I have learned here, and was looking for, is we definitely need to cover the arms as well as the head. I understand no shorts, but how low do we need to go on skirts? Yes.....Keith1010, I know I should just be prepared and wear pants or full length skirt, but I will be there in Aug, more then likely 90+ degrees. I don't want to tromp around all day in hot clothes if I don't have to. I get cranky when I'm hot. :) Please discuss.

 

~Jan

[texancruzer]

LOVE the sarcasm in some of these replies! Very entertaining.

 

Soooo, what I have learned here, and was looking for, is we definitely need to cover the arms as well as the head. I understand no shorts, but how low do we need to go on skirts? Yes.....Keith1010, I know I should just be prepared and wear pants or full length skirt, but I will be there in Aug, more then likely 90+ degrees. I don't want to tromp around all day in hot clothes if I don't have to. I get cranky when I'm hot. :) Please discuss.

 

~Jan

 

I too get cranky when I am hot….. we always go late fall or early spring and I wear lightweight slacks. Know that is not an option here so I will comment on your "how low do we go" ? :D

 

I would definitely go below the knee and then if a bit lower even better…. see below link

 

http://halalporkshop.blogspot.com/2013/05/islamization-of-turkey-continues.html

 

Now I will also comment AGAIN on the head covering…… you will see many many tourists with their heads uncovered. I did not cover mine either time we visited - but was given a scarf for my arms - even tho I had sleeves to my elbows….. so again - take a really lightweight scarf and use it for your head and arms if you need to. Some women even tie a large scarf around their waist (like a long skirt) while they are in the mosque…...

[5HappyCampers]

I was just there in May. Yes, women were asked to cover their heads at the entrance. Your shoulders and knees must be covered as well. Everyone had to remove their shoes. We took a plastic bag to put our shoes in to carry them around. Don't stress about buying a scarf, I bought one at the local second hand store for $1.00. If you do not have anything to cover with, they will give you a cover that at the exit, is turned in to be re used.

[Marianna49]

I was just there in May. Yes, women were asked to cover their heads at the entrance. Your shoulders and knees must be covered as well. Everyone had to remove their shoes. We took a plastic bag to put our shoes in to carry them around. Don't stress about buying a scarf, I bought one at the local second hand store for $1.00. If you do not have anything to cover with, they will give you a cover that at the exit, is turned in to be re used.

Also be mindful that the men are required to cover their legs if they are wearing shorts also. They do provide skirts for men also upon entering. There is no entrance fee at the Blue Mosque but there is a place for a donation on the way out.:)

[buddy1755]

I plan on wearing convertible pants.

http://www.mec.ca/product/5023-708/prana-zion-convertible-pants-32-mens/?f=10+50089+50106

[Karennella]

Our guide in Turkey was a culturally Muslim but atheist Turk and totally opposed to any of us covering our heads. We never were asked to when with him. But in Europe in summer I always wear what I wear in very hot weather in Australia (as do so many women) loose ankle length skirts and loose tops; much cooler than anything tight fitting and appropriate for almost anywhere.

[Wendy The Wanderer]

I agree; neither you nor your daughter will be required to cover your head. You will have to remove your shoes.

 

I also don't remember having to cover my head. Shoulders and legs, yes.

[texancruzer]

As I have posted before: some Muslims are actually somewhat offended by non-Muslims covering their head when they enter a mosque. When we visited Egypt we did not really see any tourists covering their heads. In Turkey it was hit and miss…..some did - some didn't. No one will come over and demand you take it off or anything like that. And if they want you to - you will be told at the door.

 

Anyway - I always take a very lightweight scarf - just in case. Then I wait and see how it goes when I get there.

 

BTW: If they want you to cover your head they will give you a large napkin looking cloth. I MUCH prefer to wear something I have brought and know is clean and free of, well, whatever :eek:

[Hlitner]

As I have posted before: some Muslims are actually somewhat offended by non-Muslims covering their head when they enter a mosque. When we visited Egypt we did not really see any tourists covering their heads. In Turkey it was hit and miss…..some did - some didn't. No one will come over and demand you take it off or anything like that. And if they want you to - you will be told at the door.

 

Anyway - I always take a very lightweight scarf - just in case. Then I wait and see how it goes when I get there.

 

BTW: If they want you to cover your head they will give you a large napkin looking cloth. I MUCH prefer to wear something I have brought and know is clean and free of, well, whatever :eek:

 

WOW, not sure where to start. We have spent a fair amount of time in Turkey (DD just returned from 10 days traveling through Turkey) and what you describe is just the opposite of our experience. If you are in an active Mosque (there are a few older Mosques that are no longer functioning as an active Mosque) it is expected that a female will cover their head (at least partially with a scarf), their knees, and be wearing a pretty conservative top. DW has visited more then 30 Mosques in Turkey and always covered out of normal respect. But forget what I say and here is a quote from a good web site on the topic:

• Dress Appropriately: Modest dress is required. Men and women should both cover as much skin as possible; women are required to cover their heads.

 

In fact, I doubt if you could find a single online authority/web site that would say its fine not to cover. And if they do not tell you at the door, they are simply being very polite. And you are taking advantage of their politeness by not following a normal rule of decorum in any active Mosque. Think of a man who goes into the MDR, on a formal night, wearing a baseball cap. Nobody says a word (because they are all too polite) but it is still wrong. I would never go into an Orthodox Jewish Synagogue without wearing a yamacha, but I suspect I could do so in some Synagogues without anyone saying a word....but it would be very wrong!

 

Hank

Edited September 5, 2014 by Hlitner

[cruisemom42]

WOW, not sure where to start. We have spent a fair amount of time in Turkey (DD just returned from 10 days traveling through Turkey) and what you describe is just the opposite of our experience. If you are in an active Mosque (there are a few older Mosques that are no longer functioning as an active Mosque) it is expected that a female will cover their head (at least partially with a scarf), their knees, and be wearing a pretty conservative top. DW has visited more then 30 Mosques in Turkey and always covered out of normal respect. But forget what I say and here is a quote from a good web site on the topic:

• Dress Appropriately: Modest dress is required. Men and women should both cover as much skin as possible; women are required to cover their heads.

 

In fact, I doubt if you could find a single online authority/web site that would say its fine not to cover. And if they do not tell you at the door, they are simply being very polite. And you are taking advantage of their politeness by not following a normal rule of decorum in any active Mosque. Think of a man who goes into the MDR, on a formal night, wearing a baseball cap. Nobody says a word (because they are all too polite) but it is still wrong. I would never go into an Orthodox Jewish Synagogue without wearing a yamacha, but I suspect I could do so in some Synagogues without anyone saying a word....but it would be very wrong!

 

Hank

 

 

Speaking just about Turkey --- this is a country where the mores and customs have rapidly become more conservative over the past 6-8 years that I have been visiting there.

 

It's absolutely true that until recently women were not necessarily required to cover their heads when entering a mosque, at least in most areas where tourists were likely to enter a mosque. It's also absolutely true that some guides (including mine, a Turkish woman) and some personnel at mosques vehemently told us NOT to cover -- the former because she was a fierce proponent of secularism in Turkey, and the second because in his rule book, only "believers" (Muslim women) needed to cover their head.

 

Shoulders -- yes. Legs -- yes. But until recently, asking women to cover their heads was not necessarily the norm in Turkey.

 

It is a very tricky area for tourists. I always try to abide by local custom, but customs have been shifting. I always carry a scarf with me and do whatever is required, whether that is to cover or not to cover.

 

Here's a discussion involving several local experts for Isanbul from back in 2007, just in case you still think we are hallucinating:

 

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g293974-i368-k1383534-Head_covering_in_mosques-Istanbul.html

 

You may also find it interesting to read another thread (also older) and note carefully that it is the American tourists who are (rather belligerently) insisting that heads MUST be covered, while most of the Turkish and/or Muslim posters are saying this is not the case....

 

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g293974-i368-k1292657-o20-Women_few_behave_BADLY-Istanbul.html

 

Unfortunately, since 2007 it seems things are getting stricter.

[Hlitner]

We simply posted what is the proper decorum for any female entering a Mosque. If one chooses to make a "political statement" and buck the system then they do this at their own risk. The worst case is that somebody will quickly give you a lecture (sometimes quite loudly) and prevent you from entering (or quickly remove you).

 

One also needs to realize that the female tour guides in Istanbul (and we have had several excellent ones) are pretty much all progressive folks (most strict Muslim women do not work in such jobs) that have their own agendas. We prefer not to get into local politics and think its wise to do what is considered proper.

 

DW and I probably visited about 20 Mosques in the Istanbul area (we have been there several times) and have actually been turned away from a few Mosques that are not open to non-believers and have also been in Mosques where the women (including DW) had to go in a different entrance from the men and stay in a separate area inside.

 

Hank

[cruisemom42]

We simply posted what is the proper decorum for any female entering a Mosque. If one chooses to make a "political statement" and buck the system then they do this at their own risk. The worst case is that somebody will quickly give you a lecture (sometimes quite loudly) and prevent you from entering (or quickly remove you).

 

One also needs to realize that the female tour guides in Istanbul (and we have had several excellent ones) are pretty much all progressive folks (most strict Muslim women do not work in such jobs) that have their own agendas. We prefer not to get into local politics and think its wise to do what is considered proper.

 

DW and I probably visited about 20 Mosques in the Istanbul area (we have been there several times) and have actually been turned away from a few Mosques that are not open to non-believers and have also been in Mosques where the women (including DW) had to go in a different entrance from the men and stay in a separate area inside.

 

Hank

 

I think you are missing my point a little. How do you KNOW it's proper decorum? As an outsider, it's hard to get an accurate sense of shifting mores. This is not a black-and-white situation.

 

If you read through the posts I listed, you'd note that quite a few from Turks (and not activist Turkish women either) say that there is no rule in the Koran suggesting women have to cover their heads unless they are at the mosque to pray. Modest dress does not require a head covering, according to them. All the rest is interpretation.

 

Now I'm not an expert. But when a man at the mosque, whose job it is to determine what passes muster, tells me there is not a need to cover my head, I am not going to argue the point.

 

I have been to a lot of mosques as well, in Turkey as well as in other countries. Including some in Syria where women must be covered head to toe. All I'm saying is Turkey has been one of the more progressive countries (until recently), and Texancruzer is correct in saying that a head covering is not always required...nor always regarded as a sign of respect. In fact it could be misconstrued as someone pretending to be something they are not. However, there's not a doubt that Turkey is becoming more, rather than less, conservative.

Edited September 5, 2014 by cruisemom42