Cruise tips for observant Jews

[printingchick]

Will be traveling with an observant Jew in 2016. We scheduled a cruise which goes Sunday to Sunday, to avoid embarking/disembarking on Saturday. We reserved Kosher meals. It's a 7 day cruise, so we will be cruising on Saturday. Finding conflicting information concerning his permissible activities on that day. Can he disembark if he only walks around the port, doesn't swim, doesn't carry anything and doesn't purchase anything? Or does he need to stay on the ship? We read the metal detectors are okay (they have them at the Western Wall). Obviously someone else could carry his Sea Pass card. Would appreciate input from those with expertise in this area.

[marci22]

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/484239/jewish/May-I-go-on-a-cruise-on-Shabbat.htm

 

If you google 'cruise tips for observant jews' you will find many links.

Edited August 31, 2014 by marci22

[PerferWarmWeather]

Here is what I found:

 

http://wikitravel.org/en/Observing_the_Jewish_Sabbath_while_traveling

you can scroll down to the cruise portion.

[30scruiser]

He may or may not be willing to disembark the ship since it will require his sea pass card to be scanned. If the person carrying it for him is not Jewish that would make him more likely to allow it, but there are so many variations of what individual observant Jews will do, you're probably better asking him yourself.

 

He also may or may not be comfortable eating heated food Friday night and Saturday. You may want to look into what cold items on the buffet are kosher such as whether the yogurt the cruiseline has is kosher. He can always eat cereal and fruit if nothing else or he may want to carry on some snacks.

 

You may also want to be thoughtful about what deck his cabin is on since he probably will take the stairs on the sabbath although he may be willing to take the elevator if a non-Jewish person presses the button.

[Miss Vickie]

Printingchick, are you Jewish? If so, your friend can't ask you to carry their sea pass, trigger the doors to the outside areas,or open their stateroom door. On Shabbat.

[Miss Vickie]

I had another interesting thought, don't know the answer. If power goes out, the vacuum system for the toilets doesn't work. So, if there's electricity involved, can they flush the toilet on Shabbat?

 

Are they booking an outside or balcony stateroom to ensure light on Shabbat?

[iheartbda]

Will be traveling with an observant Jew in 2016. We scheduled a cruise which goes Sunday to Sunday, to avoid embarking/disembarking on Saturday. We reserved Kosher meals. It's a 7 day cruise, so we will be cruising on Saturday. Finding conflicting information concerning his permissible activities on that day. Can he disembark if he only walks around the port, doesn't swim, doesn't carry anything and doesn't purchase anything? Or does he need to stay on the ship? We read the metal detectors are okay (they have them at the Western Wall). Obviously someone else could carry his Sea Pass card. Would appreciate input from those with expertise in this area.

 

At the end of one of the links, which was written by a rabbi, he adds that one would be well-advised to discuss things about with trip with one's rabbi.

As with all questions on CC, you will get conflicting information. ;):)

[HesterMofet]

I think if it were up to me, I would try to go on a Sunday-Thursday cruise instead. I have no problem with people observing their religions, but it seems like they will have to depend on a lot of non-Jewish people to get their needs met.

 

I hope this works out for you and your friend doesn't impose too much on your enjoyment of the trip. I would say it was up to him to get his needs met and not you. He will know what he can and cannot do and what he is comfortable doing.

 

Could someone please explain to me why seeing cargo and cargo ships might mean that the person needs to stay on the ship?

[sliderturk99]

At the end of the day, it comes down to what you friend considers work vs non work for the sabbath.

 

Best thing to do is create of list of questions for him and take it from there.

Edited August 31, 2014 by sliderturk99

[chengkp75]

OP, if you search for posts by CC member DWJoe, you will find many helpful tips for cruising as an orthodox Jew. There are many, many little things involved, like taping over the switch on the room fridge's door, so that the light won't turn on when the door is opened.

[Ba' Datz]

I am Orthodox and have cruised both on RCL and NCL and both lines are very accommodating towards the Shabbath observer.

 

I was able to tape over the door lock so it would not slam shut and when that was not possible the room steward would open it for me when he saw me without me telling him to do so.

 

As to public areas the doors are always opening and you can always go through with little or no wait especially if you are in high traffic areas.

 

Regarding food warming, this is a whole different matter and one should consult his LOR (Local Orthodox Rabbi) as to what is permissible based on his level of observance. There are endless possibilities.

 

I never went of the ship on Shabbat because of the card issue and carrying once on shore, but primarily because of the problem of reboarding. There it is not only an issue of scaning but also of the metal detectors. Yes they do have them at the Western Wall in Jerusalem, but they are specially calibrated with a different operating system for Shabbat, and I doubt if the shipboard detectors are the same.

 

All in all cruising is easy for the Orthodox traveller and with a little preplanning you can have a great time,

 

I am off on my second Transatlantic in two months time.

[printingchick]

Thank you for all the great input and yes, I'm certain he will also consult his rabbi. I just wanted to be aware for the rest of the group.

 

The other members of our group are Christian, so he will have a selection of Shabbes goys to assist. ;)

 

He is a Conservative Jew and doesn't follow a Kosher diet quite to the extent an Orthodox Jew would. He does avoid forbidden foods and the mixing of meat and dairy, but will eat at restaurants or at the home of non-jews who would not keep separate cooking and serving ware. (In those cases, he opts for vegetarian meals.) He does unscrew the light bulb on the fridge at home and does not drive (or even ride in a car) or use electricity on the Sabbath. Ideally, we'd have selected a cruise running Sunday to Sunday, with a sea day on Saturday, but it was impossible to find everything we wanted in one itinerary! Not sure if he will stay on the ship in St. Croix or get off and simply walk around the dock area. He can certainly have someone else carry his sea pass card that day. He has requested Kosher meals on board. I did consider the automatic doors, but completely forgot about elevators. Since we are on Deck 3, he will have a lot of stairs to get to the upper decks, but not too bad for the MDR. And yes, we have OV cabins, so he will have light.

 

Thanks again!

Edited September 2, 2014 by printingchick

[AlexanderBeetle]

The other members of our group are Christian, so he will have a selection of Shabbes goys to assist. ;)

 

I love it; that made me smile. :)

[rutgersgirl27]

I wouldn't worry about elevators. Chances are high someone else will be using them as well (have you ever been on an empty elevator on a cruise?), and your friend can just get off on the closest deck that was picked.

 

http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2010/01/halachos-of-going-on-cruise.html

 

This might be helpful, but honestly talking to a local rabbi is the best bet. Especially since the Conservative movement may be more flexible.

[Miss Vickie]

Sounds like you'll be fine and have a great time.

 

I agree about the elevators. I've been in hotels in Jerusalem that have "Shabbos elevators." They're programmed to open at every floor so no buttons have to be pushed.

[Merion_Mom]

Thank you for all the great input and yes, I'm certain he will also consult his rabbi. I just wanted to be aware for the rest of the group.

 

The other members of our group are Christian, so he will have a selection of Shabbes goys to assist. ;)

 

He is a Conservative Jew and doesn't follow a Kosher diet quite to the extent an Orthodox Jew would. He does avoid forbidden foods and the mixing of meat and dairy, but will eat at restaurants or at the home of non-jews who would not keep separate cooking and serving ware. (In those cases, he opts for vegetarian meals.) He does unscrew the light bulb on the fridge at home and does not drive (or even ride in a car) or use electricity on the Sabbath. Ideally, we'd have selected a cruise running Sunday to Sunday, with a sea day on Saturday, but it was impossible to find everything we wanted in one itinerary! Not sure if he will stay on the ship in St. Croix or get off and simply walk around the dock area. He can certainly have someone else carry his sea pass card that day. He has requested Kosher meals on board. I did consider the automatic doors, but completely forgot about elevators. Since we are on Deck 3, he will have a lot of stairs to get to the upper decks, but not too bad for the MDR. And yes, we have OV cabins, so he will have light.

 

Thanks again!

 

If it would help at all, drop me an email. I have a friend who is an Orthodox rabbi who has cruised several times, and he truly knows the "ins and outs" of being both observant and an avid cruiser. I can put you directly in touch with him.

 

:)

[cruizers]

It might be best for your friend to speak with his/her Rabbi.

[SherriZ366]

T

The other members of our group are Christian, so he will have a selection of Shabbes goys to assist. ;)

 

 

Thanks again!

Loved your remark about your Friend having lots of "Shabbes Goys." You are good friends.

 

Just a piece of trivia -- Elvis, before he became famous, was a Shabbes Goy for a Rabbi in Memphis.

[Sunkissed Mommy]

I have cruised twice in which there was a large group of Orthodox Jews onboard. I would guess 20+ On the Liberty and Allure. They seemed to get around the ship just fine. They would enter an elevator when someone else would, walk through a door when someone else would, etc. They seemed to be enjoying themselves just as much as anyone else onboard.

 

Both cruises were Sunday to Sunday. The Allure had a sea day Saturday, the Liberty had an itinerary change due to Hurricane Tomas and we were in Nassau on Saturday , it appeared that they all stayed onboard (we did as well and saw them all over the ship) in Nassau.

 

I noticed on the Liberty that they brought their own paper plates for meals in the dining room. I was not aware of what they ate because they were not directly near us, I just saw the younger girls carrying the plates as they entered the dining room.

 

Good luck!

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums mobile app

[kathyemma]

It is so nice of you to try to figure out ways to help them!

 

Enjoy your cruise!

 

Kathy

[ChipLondon]

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/484239/jewish/May-I-go-on-a-cruise-on-Shabbat.htm

 

If you google 'cruise tips for observant jews' you will find many links.

 

I read this post with great interest, not because I have any personal religious involvement with it, but simply to educate myself about such issues. I hope my questions do not offend as they are not intended to, and if they do please feel free to ask for this post to be removed.

 

The first part of the article linked states:

 

"One may not embark on a sea journey on the three days preceding Shabbat. This means that you may not initially board a cruise after sunset on Tuesday evening."

So my question is, How does this apply to to the day at sea, or evening repositioning of a ship back to a home port on say a Friday for Sunday arrival, as I accept it is part of another journey but is also a separate sailing if leaving one port to another ?

 

My second question is with regard to my understanding that no work or business can be conducted on the Shabbat.

So how does that apply as surely the purchase of a cruise vacation is a business transaction between the cruise line and the passenger. As part of that transaction it is agreed that the ship will provided facilities and service for the period of say 7 days, so surely a room attendant servicing a room, or an entertainer providing entertainment, or a waiter serving food is part of that transaction. Which would in turn take place on The Shabbat.?

 

Again please know that I am not trying to be smart or challenge anyone but simply trying to understand my fellow man or woman.

 

I hope that by doing so I can become a better fellow cruiser

 

Thank you for your understanding, and please feel free to ask for this comment to be removed if it is in any way offensive.

 

Thank you.

Edited September 3, 2014 by ChipLondon

[jpcello]

I was just on Allure three weeks ago Western Caribbean Sunday to Sunday. In the Friday Cruise Compass there was a notice of exactly when Sabbath services would start with a reminder that burning candles were not allowed.

[Ba' Datz]

I read this post with great interest, not because I have any personal religious involvement with it, but simply to educate myself about such issues. I hope my questions do not offend as they are not intended to, and if they do please feel free to ask for this post to be removed.

 

The first part of the article linked states:

 

"One may not embark on a sea journey on the three days preceding Shabbat. This means that you may not initially board a cruise after sunset on Tuesday evening."

So my question is, How does this apply to to the day at sea, or evening repositioning of a ship back to a home port on say a Friday for Sunday arrival, as I accept it is part of another journey but is also a separate sailing if leaving one port to another ?

 

My second question is with regard to my understanding that no work or business can be conducted on the Shabbat.

So how does that apply as surely the purchase of a cruise vacation is a business transaction between the cruise line and the passenger. As part of that transaction it is agreed that the ship will provided facilities and service for the period of say 7 days, so surely a room attendant servicing a room, or an entertainer providing entertainment, or a waiter serving food is part of that transaction. Which would in turn take place on The Shabbat.?

 

Again please know that I am not trying to be smart or challenge anyone but simply trying to understand my fellow man or woman.

 

I hope that by doing so I can become a better fellow cruiser

 

Thank you for your understanding, and please feel free to ask for this comment to be removed if it is in any way offensive.

 

Thank you.

 

Hi there. I will try to answer your questions and appreciate your desire to obtain information as to others religious practices.

 

The issue of starting a journey by Wednesday has to do with the passenger's comfort and well being by Friday evening at the start of the Sabbath. In the olden days when ships did not have stabilizers and any sea voyage was a "rock and roll adventure", passengers frequently suffered from seasickness and worse. Since the Sabbath is the day of rest and enjoyment, the Rabbis wanted to make sure that the passenger would adjust to the sea voyage before the Sabbath and not spend it being sick, hence the three day lead time.

 

Today there are Rabbinic opinions stating that since the ships conditions have improved it is permissible to board a ship even on Friday.

 

Once you are onboard there is no problem with it sailing on the Sabbath as long as the passenger follows the Sabbath laws individually.

 

As to the work issue, it is presumed that the majority of the passengers and crew on the ship are not Jewish and thus the work onboard is not done especially for the Jewish passenger. In this case he can benefit from work that is being done anyway.

 

If all the passengers and crew, and the owners were Jewish it would be a whole different story

 

This is a very very general explanation as even within this "opening" there are many things that the Jewish passenger can have done for him and lots that he can't. But this goes way beyond the scope of your question.

 

When I cruise I am constantly asked by crew and passengers alike to explain my religious practices and am very happy to do so.

[ChipLondon]

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions, I appreciate your response. Which in turn raises a further question.

If as you state Rabbinic Opinions allow for tradition to be changed because of changed or improved conditions, why would that not be applicable to other aspects such as the use of Electricity, touching a Lift button, or carrying ID in the form of a Sea Pass Card ?

 

Again please accept my previous statement of apology if my question is intrusive.

 

Hi there. I will try to answer your questions and appreciate your desire to obtain information as to others religious practices.

 

The issue of starting a journey by Wednesday has to do with the passenger's comfort and well being by Friday evening at the start of the Sabbath. In the olden days when ships did not have stabilizers and any sea voyage was a "rock and roll adventure", passengers frequently suffered from seasickness and worse. Since the Sabbath is the day of rest and enjoyment, the Rabbis wanted to make sure that the passenger would adjust to the sea voyage before the Sabbath and not spend it being sick, hence the three day lead time.

 

Today there are Rabbinic opinions stating that since the ships conditions have improved it is permissible to board a ship even on Friday.

 

Once you are onboard there is no problem with it sailing on the Sabbath as long as the passenger follows the Sabbath laws individually.

 

As to the work issue, it is presumed that the majority of the passengers and crew on the ship are not Jewish and thus the work onboard is not done especially for the Jewish passenger. In this case he can benefit from work that is being done anyway.

 

If all the passengers and crew, and the owners were Jewish it would be a whole different story

 

This is a very very general explanation as even within this "opening" there are many things that the Jewish passenger can have done for him and lots that he can't. But this goes way beyond the scope of your question.

 

When I cruise I am constantly asked by crew and passengers alike to explain my religious practices and am very happy to do so.

[Ba' Datz]

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions, I appreciate your response. Which in turn raises a further question.

If as you state Rabbinic Opinions allow for tradition to be changed because of changed or improved conditions, why would that not be applicable to other aspects such as the use of Electricity, touching a Lift button, or carrying ID in the form of a Sea Pass Card ?

 

Again please accept my previous statement of apology if my question is intrusive.

 

I agree with your premise but there is a difference.

 

For example, not feeling well on the Sabbath is not violating a Torah or Halachic (Jewish Law) prohibition. People who are sick on Shabbat are not "sinners". But you want to be as "well" as possible in order to enjoy all the things that the Sabbath gives you and your family.

 

On the other hand the things that you mentioned all concern direct violations of various rules of Sabbath law such as creation of new things, fire, and many more. (again way to wide for this discussion)

 

There the Orthodox Rabbis are much more hesitant to change and modernize and instead try to find ways to observe and be part of the 21st century but still observe the laws.

 

It is not easy but can be done. In fact, I do enjoy my cruises and hope to continue to do so