QM2 Propulsion Issues?

[olegna]

Looks like the problem continued on this morning's arrival.

 

We arrived a bit later than scheduled and docked very slowly with a tug boat standing off the starboard side. Heard on board that the fix was not fully completed. Perhaps the engineers will have everything ship shape by this evening.

 

Was a great cruise and Captain Oprey and staff, did an outstanding job of maneuvering under the circumstances.

[balf]

Chengkp75, thanks for a great post, we get lots of lay folk here theorising, and I include myself, so it's good to read your posts as a poster who really does know what he's talking about.

 

David.

[skyhawk352]

Just got off the 13-night Caribbean sailing of the QM2. The problem was noticed right before departure from Tortola. the explanation was that there are 2 steering pods, of which one was setting off an alarm. The first few announcements were that we will be leaving Tortola a little later than planned. A little after 7pm that night, the Captain came on to explain that the problem still exists. Although the QM2 can sufficiently travel with only 1 steering pod, the Captain felt it best to leave during daylight hours instead of maneuving the waters around Tortola at night. The ship was already cleared to leave the island and secured overnight so we were not permitted to leave and explore the island at night. Wasn't bad though as there was a planned deck party which was quite nice without the traveling ocean breeze. So we stayed in port overnight. At around 8:30am the next morning we set sail for Amber Cove. During the day the captain did make note that we may slow down at times so that they can test the pod. That I'm aware of, it was not fixed prior to arrival to Amber Cove. We docked on the original date as expected and had no further issues that day. Although we docked slightly late today in NY, I'm not sure if that had anything to do with the steering pod or not. Hope that helps!

[Underwatr]

Thanks for the report! Sounds like her overall schedule can be maintained, and from chengkp75's reports it sounds like maneuvering/docking is minimally affected aside from a potentially increased need for a standby tug.

[CatsRKool]

Hello all, we just debarked QM2 this morning. Indeed we were kept overnight in Tortola and were told by the captain was due to a fault with one of the azipods. We still made it to Amber Cove (lovely port and well organized - take the opportunity to use one of the taxis to go into downtown Puerto Plata which we thoroughly enjoyed). There was substantial vibration several nights in the Britannia dining room (upper) but not clear if this was related to the azipod fault. We were never informed whether it was fixed.

 

In my humble opinion, Cunard has a much larger issue with overall maintenance: planetarium was not functional this trip, several broken fixtures in the spa and other areas of the ship, and a distinct mildew/sewage smell on deck 9 starboard side which permeated the Commodore Club rendering it from our perspective an undesirable spot and we avoided it. I hope they address some of these issues during the one-month (!) dry dock scheduled for next spring. Don't want to burst anyone's bubble but as we say, "Them's the facts." We won't be rebooking QM2 until we have reports they have addressed the issues on this beautiful ship--she deserves better.

[Underwatr]

The drydocking was originally scheduled for 2015 but was pushed out a year. Perhaps we're seeing the downside of longer intervals between equipment overhauls.

[laktex]

In my humble opinion, Cunard has a much larger issue with overall maintenance: planetarium was not functional this trip, several broken fixtures in the spa and other areas of the ship, and a distinct mildew/sewage smell on deck 9 starboard side which permeated the Commodore Club rendering it from our perspective an undesirable spot and we avoided it. I hope they address some of these issues during the one-month (!) dry dock scheduled for next spring. Don't want to burst anyone's bubble but as we say, "Them's the facts." We won't be rebooking QM2 until we have reports they have addressed the issues on this beautiful ship--she deserves better.

 

Well she has a World Cruise to navigate before the dry dock so we hope some of the big issues will be sorted before then.

[chengkp75]

The drydocking was originally scheduled for 2015 but was pushed out a year. Perhaps we're seeing the downside of longer intervals between equipment overhauls.

 

Well, most ships, built in 2004 like the QM2, would have only had drydocks in 2009 and 2014, but the QM2 has had dockings in 2008 and 2011, and a third in 2016, she is actually way ahead on drydockings. The ships does have the Rolls-Royce Mermaid pods, which are far more troublesome than the ABB azipods, so maybe they are looking at doing maintenance at more frequent intervals than the normal 5 years to prevent problems.

 

It does seem to me that this is very likely a problem with the SCR drives that supply electricity to the pod motors, or the harmonic filters that have exploded in the past. This may prove to be a design problem, which GE may have to address, much like the RR problems on the pods.

[Salacia]

PARTIAL QUOTE

...It does seem to me that this is very likely a problem with the SCR drives that supply electricity to the pod motors, or the harmonic filters that have exploded in the past. This may prove to be a design problem, which GE may have to address, much like the RR problems on the pods.

 

I may be misunderstanding yet again, but it seems to me that you are saying there is very likely an existing problem that could result in a serious event like the one that occurred in 2010? Forgive me if I am misunderstanding; clarification welcome. Thanks, -S

[branston boy]

Hello, I am looking forward now more than ever to my next cruise. Armed with my newly acquired degree in both mechanical and electrical engineering I will be on hand to help solve any problems that occur.The Open University can't hold a candle to Cruise Critic.Time for a lie down.

 

Rodger.

[chengkp75]

PARTIAL QUOTE

 

I may be misunderstanding yet again, but it seems to me that you are saying there is very likely an existing problem that could result in a serious event like the one that occurred in 2010? Forgive me if I am misunderstanding; clarification welcome. Thanks, -S

 

It could, but doubtful. What I am saying is that there appears to be a repetitive problem with this equipment, which could lead to a series of redesigns or change of component sub-suppliers which could lead to another lawsuit since this equipment is out of warranty now. I think that some of the alarm settings for the pod control system were set lower (towards the safer region) after the explosion, and this may have resulted in this alarm, which caught a problem before a catastrophic failure. I would suspect that the SCR drives and harmonic filters are cutting edge as far as size and application (space limitation aboard ship, etc.), much as the pods continue to show problems (both RR and ABB types) due to their increasing size outstripping the technology needed to build them (unanticipated failures of components due to lack of historical usage data for units sized and loaded as large as the newest are). Any technology has teething problems when you scale up, and it needs long term data to determine reliability factors and make improvements in things like metallurgy, cooling design, and lots of other factors.

[japyke]

We were aboard QM2 on a TA crossing when she experienced a propulsion problem. It was a January eastbound crossing. We had left New York a few hours late due to a nor'easter. This incident occurred the day after we passed the Titanic point on the moving map. So, the Titanic was on my mind.

 

Something awoke me at about 2 in the morning. I woke my husband up and said, "The ship isn't moving." He said, "Don't be silly. We are still moving, just very slowly." He's an airline captain, so don't expect him to get very excited about much.

 

The television monitor showed that she had slowed from around 19 kts to 10 kts. We had just enough forward momentum to keep us from wallowing. A few moments later I heard a young voice on the PA in the hallway. I leapt out of bed, ran to the door, felt the door for fire and cracked the door open. The young man's voice was calling, "All hands to the ECR. All hands to the ECR." Silence thereafter.

 

I got back into bed. My husband and I lay there trying to figure out what ECR meant. We couldn't figure it out, but it kept us occupied. My husband said, "Don't worry. It's not serious until we hear from the Commodore." Okay, so we waited. Then, the PA crackled into the stillness, "All hands to the ECR. All hands to the ECR." It was the Commodore! So, I turn to my husband and said "What now, smart ass?" Can you tell we have been married a while? He said, we wait.

 

Maybe an hour later we hear the Commodore again. He said, "Stand down." Whew, problem solved. Now we want to know what ECR meant.

 

The next morning we asked every crew member we encountered about the event. No one was spilling the beans. We finally got an answer from Osman, the Maître's D in the QG. It was a propulsion problem.

 

The Commodore did address the issue in the noon address. He said that it was a propulsion issue. He went on to say that it is always better to gather the entire team to deal with an issue from the onset than have to assemble a team piecemeal as conditions worsen. He also said that we would be increasing our speed to make up for the lost time. He pushed the pods up to around 25 or 26 kts. That is not the QM2's maximum speed. But, it's really fast compared to a cruise ship. They only had to make up a couple of hours. With the increased speed, we couldn't detect any difference except on the television monitor.

 

BTW, ECR stood for Engine Control Room. Mystery solved.

 

The QM2 is an amazing piece of technology. On a good day, everyone should go up on deck to "Prophenge" and have their picture taken with the prop array. It gives you an appreciation of the engineering.

 

I was on this voyage as well. And yes, to lose propulsion in the middle of the Atlantic in January, in the middle of the night, and to have an announcement calling for "Emergency response team to the ECR" piped into the cabins is a worrisome event for a person from a generation raised on the Poseidon adventure and in my case having read "a night to remember". My partner also rolled over with no interest but wide awake I had no choice but to muster myself. The ship was eerily quiet in the dead of the night at such low speed. There were a few other type A's out and about but the only real action I found was at the base of one of the stairwells where it interesects with the Burma Road (the crew passage down the center of the ship)where I observed Paul Laughlin (sp?), our cruise director, in a windbreaker, walkie-talkie in hand, directing crew who were scurrying about. This was clearly not a time for asking questions as management clearly had it's hands full. I repaired to the Kings Court for very early morning coffee and to wait this event out. Not long after Commodore Rynd gave the order to stand down. Phew!

 

I took the behind the scenes tour on the same voyage, I was hoping to gather some details. One of our stops was a visit to the ECR. My questions were these: What was the emergency and it's cause, and if there was none, wasn't it unusual that they would pipe the emergency announcement into the passenger cabins in the middle of the night if this was just a drill? While they never admitted that there was an actual emergency or that this was unusual, the response that I heard reading between the lines was that there was indeed an important issue, or alarm, or possibly even a drill, but that 'a critical team member had not responded to the first public area announcement or responded to their 'page'. Hmmmm, possibly he or she was in a passenger cabin?

 

Anyway, all is well that ends well. To see our cruise director in the middle of the night in 'emergency' management mode gave me a new understanding of the role of the ships officers. In the history of Cunard's continual scheduled TransAtlantic service this 'emergency' was maybe a mosquito bite, if that.

It was of some comfort knowing that if there was an emergency, that we were in the hands of Cunard's dedicated officers and crew who clearly take seriously their responsibility for passenger safety and the tradition of professional excellence.

 

Now if we can just get the QM2 into the shop for a seriously needed overhaul...

[Underwatr]

Last Christmas we briefly lost all power (hotel and propulsion) during dinner. I did note that the WiFi and POS terminals remained operational during the outage.

[Salacia]

It could, but doubtful. What I am saying is that there appears to be a repetitive problem with this equipment, which could lead to a series of redesigns or change of component sub-suppliers which could lead to another lawsuit since this equipment is out of warranty now. I think that some of the alarm settings for the pod control system were set lower (towards the safer region) after the explosion, and this may have resulted in this alarm, which caught a problem before a catastrophic failure. I would suspect that the SCR drives and harmonic filters are cutting edge as far as size and application (space limitation aboard ship, etc.), much as the pods continue to show problems (both RR and ABB types) due to their increasing size outstripping the technology needed to build them (unanticipated failures of components due to lack of historical usage data for units sized and loaded as large as the newest are). Any technology has teething problems when you scale up, and it needs long term data to determine reliability factors and make improvements in things like metallurgy, cooling design, and lots of other factors.

 

Thanks, that's interesting. -S.

[Chunky2219]

I'm not here to contradict chengkp75, but maybe can add a bit of a broader perspective.

 

I took quite an interest in the previous QM2 propulsion fire.explosion, even as far as researching the reports of what happened and why. My reason for doing this was that the sort of equipment aboard QM2 and indeed, many if not most of the newer ships isn't especially new or cutting edge, electrical machines of this type have been used in many industries for maybe a couple of decades. Specifically for my interest, I used to be involved in the metals industry where similar systems are commonplace - very big, high power motors with solid state supplies and control systems, operating continuously sometimes for weeks on end. I spent countless hours with the electrical specialists who were specifying the kit and with companies like ABB who were manufacturing it.

 

Even though the core technology is quite mature, it added some challenges when someone decided to connect it all up to motors that could rotate below the waterline of ships, where maintenance iis going to have an extra dimension over and above that when just chomping metal in an industrial setting.

 

Such equipment does go wrong, but the implications are greater when you are half way across the Atlantic without access to a warehouse full of spares. There's a brilliant story about a metals company (of my acquaintance) who had a similar fire and ought to have been back up and running within 12 hours. But some genius had located all the spares at the side of the running equipment and all the lot went up at once. Result - 4 months with a major piece of equipment out of business while new bits were manufactured from scratch.

 

The bottom line is that all's well so long as you have enough built in redundancy to get you to the next place where they can fly in the required spares. If one azipod is out but you have two more, then there's nothing to be too concerned about. So long, of course as you have adequate fail safes and a capable fire suppression system for when a thyristor stack lights up, as they sometimes (albeit rarely) do. If it's the power equipment driving the azipods you install spares. If it's the motor(s) in the azipod itself then that's probably not going to be fixed at sea, but that doesn't necessarily mean a cancelled cruise and a week in dry dock to put things right. Most elements are accessible from inside but you may not want to put people in there with the spanners while the vessel is underway.

 

It's right and proper to be extra, extra careful if there's a problem when you have nigh on 2000 passengers captive, even if it's 2 in the morning and some of them might justifiably get a little spooked. But unless QM2 has a major electrical design flaw, or unless someone decides to scrape her along an iceberg, all will be well.

 

I suspect that they would take a decision to stop and do some running repairs if seas are calm, but would approach things differently if the ship needed power to be able to deal with lively weather. A complete loss of the ability to maneuver in high seas would be a major design flaw that realistically would put commercial operations at risk and would have to be eliminated before passengers could be carried.

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited November 28, 2015 by Chunky2219
typo

[chengkp75]

You are quite correct that the SCR drive technology is mature (I've worked with smaller units 30 years ago, and this is used in mining and steel production in sizable units. I do know that there are some design changes done to make the systems applicable to marine use, like water cooling the drive cooling air, which can introduce its own problems.

 

The pod problems are directly related to minimizing the size for hydrodynamics, with the ability to perform maintenance becomes secondary, and it is a metallurgy problem with the thrust bearings and oil technology.

 

I believe the previous problem with the propulsion drive was with the harmonic filters, which are quite common with SCR drives, but are probably more problematic in marine application where the SCR drives are operating at reduced load for extended periods of time (slow speed), where most industrial applications try to maximize load on any individual drive to reduce the amount of "filtering" required.

 

As you say, there is sufficient redundancy in propulsion, having 4 pods each with their own drives, and the fact that each drive is powered from both of the main switchboards (which are normally tied together). There is a bit of low redundancy in steering, but this becomes a major issue only when in restricted waters (arriving/departing port), and this can be remediated by the use of an escort tug.

 

Ships carry incredible amounts of spare parts, but even your local auto parts store doesn't have every part for your car in stock at all times. Engineering is the art of balancing reliability with cost, in this case the cost of purchasing the parts, the loss of interest on the money used to purchase the parts, and the cost of carrying them around, balanced against the possibly rare need for the part.

 

I agree that there isn't a major concern with this problem, at this time, but that it might cause some minor failures down the road until the ships get long term reliability data and a meaningful maintenance plan can be adopted. They have short term data, and short term maintenance procedures, but until you've reached a milestone in equipment life, you don't know what the extended maintenance needs to be.

[Host Hattie]

:eek: this thread is turning into my day job, I work in Maintenance in the metals industry.

 

Thanks for the interesting details both.

[Navaleye]

QM2 is arriving into Southampton at 1.30am Thursday to enable further repairs to be made to the defective number 3 pod. I will keep the board posted as I'm on here for the next 3 months.

[Host Hattie]

Thanks for the update, enjoy your 3 months.

[Salacia]

QM2 is arriving into Southampton at 1.30am Thursday to enable further repairs to be made to the defective number 3 pod. I will keep the board posted as I'm on here for the next 3 months.

 

Thanks Navaleye. Three months at sea - that's a voyage!!! Looking forward to your reports. Regards, -S.

[laktex]

QM2 is arriving into Southampton at 1.30am Thursday to enable further repairs to be made to the defective number 3 pod. I will keep the board posted as I'm on here for the next 3 months.

 

Well she sure is early - its 19:40 and she is approaching south of the Isle of Wight..

[Ray66]

Just arrived now at 12.35.

 

[Salacia]

Just arrived now at 12.35.

 

 

Happy to read that she arrived home safely. Will disembarkation start early, or follow the usual schedule?

[Navaleye]

Southampton disembarkation was as normal. In Southampton doing some shopping. 5pm departure for Madeira. I will report any news if announced. New satellite dish going on today

[branston boy]

Hello, may I ask Navaleye crew or a very lucy passenger, ?.Whatever I am looking forward to your updates.

 

Rodger.