Guilt trip by HAL to promote ships tours?

[cruisemom42]

We have always thought we have gotten good value from out HAL excursions. And yes, often you can arrange something cheaper on your own. Your choice. HAL has added many new layers to their offerings - more active ones, more community engagement ones, guaranteed smaller groups.

 

Best part is how few HAL excursions have forced shopping experiences. Often those cheaper non-HAL tours end up in some "uncles" souvenir shop.

 

How few have forced shopping experiences? Maybe that's true for some itineraries (perhaps due to lack of options), but I just looked at HAL's tour offerings for a couple of ports in the Mediterranean. If you exclude the private vehicle offerings, almost every tour mentions some type of forced shopping stop, be it the cameo factory or wood box factory in Naples/Sorrento, or the rug factory or leather factory in Kusadasi....

 

One thing I will say -- at least HAL discloses the stops. Some lines do not.

 

If you truly have arranged a private tour (not a spot on a regularly run tour open to all comers), you should never have any problem setting the tour program exactly as you want it. You're the one calling the shots. I generally specify NO shopping stops on any tours I set up.

[Bowie MeMe]

OP, take a good look at a map and see how remote Hammerfest is. It's likely that if you do not take a HAL tour you won't be able to get a private tour guided by a local; you will truly be walking around on your own.

If that's all right with you, then it's a plan. If you want the kind of information only possible when using a guide, then the HAL tours are likely to be your only option.

 

I do agree that HAL's phrasing is, at best, unusual for them. I have to wonder if including such phrasing was part of the contract agreeing to the town as a port stop. For all the times I've sailed up and down the coast of Norway, I have never had Hammerfest as a port stop.

 

I have been cruising all over the world for more than 35 years and I have taken hundreds of excursions -- those sold by cruise line (small and large mass US cruise lines plus small cruise lines ), my own multi-day private guides/ or guide driver, and group tours sold independent of the cruise lines.

All have advantages and disadvantages in the areas of cost, time, special views etc. and no one type is perfect for a port or site. If it is a small place -- know that there are very limited resources. Hammerfest sounds like maybe they don't have many large busses or minivans. The cruise line will get most of those resources -- especially if they use that port more than one time (repeat business is a huge money factor for local guides). If a site (like a cave or museum or smaller facility that most people want to do or it is the only thing to do in a few hour port visit) sometimes the site is CLOSED to "walk-ins" because all the availability has been reserved by ship or larger tour operator. You can get there cheaper but you might not get in. :mad: Larger cities or ports have different set of problems. You might have a guide/driver but you have to get away from the docks to meet your guide/tour etc. Always be sure to ask where you meet -- sometimes almost a mile out to the gate where guides can meet you and sometimes there is no transportation available or security keeps other drivers or choices out of the dock area. Lots of times just almost impossible to get from ship in commercial dock (BIG ship has to go to the further out Big ship port) to the "street" where you can get cab or bus or "walk" away from the port.

 

What I am saying is every port must be studied for location, activities offered, and cost of the port activities and ease of going from where ship is docked to where the site you want to see is located. Are there requirements for getting off the ship and touring (paperwork done by cruise line for "their tours"). Keep in mind that if resources are limited, the ship is the big gorilla and gets the most bananas :D and maybe the best ones too. Good non-ship options might be available but then you have to locate them and be the one who gets that fabulous guide (or his 2nd cousin on the mother's side who speaks English OK!:eek:) which I find more often than not "Name Guide" is not who you tour with in reality but at 9AM getting ready to enter the tour bus what do you do then? Go on! Even with your wonderful research and "the best guide on 2 travel sites" it is still pretty much a crap shoot for BOTH cruise line and private tour. You research, you make decisions on that research and you pray that the travel mercies gods are not in a bad mood. On my hundreds of wonderful excursions MOST both ship and private have been wonderful and MOST have had some problems in cost/crowding/language or culture/ shopping or bathroom breaks. May all your travel and excursion problems be ones that you can overcome with flexibility and good humor and good manners from all concerned.

[3rdGenCunarder]

I have been cruising all over the world for more than 35 years and I have taken hundreds of excursions -- those sold by cruise line (small and large mass US cruise lines plus small cruise lines ), my own multi-day private guides/ or guide driver, and group tours sold independent of the cruise lines.

All have advantages and disadvantages in the areas of cost, time, special views etc. and no one type is perfect for a port or site. If it is a small place -- know that there are very limited resources. Hammerfest sounds like maybe they don't have many large busses or minivans. The cruise line will get most of those resources -- especially if they use that port more than one time (repeat business is a huge money factor for local guides). If a site (like a cave or museum or smaller facility that most people want to do or it is the only thing to do in a few hour port visit) sometimes the site is CLOSED to "walk-ins" because all the availability has been reserved by ship or larger tour operator. You can get there cheaper but you might not get in. :mad: Larger cities or ports have different set of problems. You might have a guide/driver but you have to get away from the docks to meet your guide/tour etc. Always be sure to ask where you meet -- sometimes almost a mile out to the gate where guides can meet you and sometimes there is no transportation available or security keeps other drivers or choices out of the dock area. Lots of times just almost impossible to get from ship in commercial dock (BIG ship has to go to the further out Big ship port) to the "street" where you can get cab or bus or "walk" away from the port.

 

What I am saying is every port must be studied for location, activities offered, and cost of the port activities and ease of going from where ship is docked to where the site you want to see is located. Are there requirements for getting off the ship and touring (paperwork done by cruise line for "their tours"). Keep in mind that if resources are limited, the ship is the big gorilla and gets the most bananas :D and maybe the best ones too. Good non-ship options might be available but then you have to locate them and be the one who gets that fabulous guide (or his 2nd cousin on the mother's side who speaks English OK!:eek:) which I find more often than not "Name Guide" is not who you tour with in reality but at 9AM getting ready to enter the tour bus what do you do then? Go on! Even with your wonderful research and "the best guide on 2 travel sites" it is still pretty much a crap shoot for BOTH cruise line and private tour. You research, you make decisions on that research and you pray that the travel mercies gods are not in a bad mood. On my hundreds of wonderful excursions MOST both ship and private have been wonderful and MOST have had some problems in cost/crowding/language or culture/ shopping or bathroom breaks. May all your travel and excursion problems be ones that you can overcome with flexibility and good humor and good manners from all concerned.

 

You have described many of our experiences in ports. Because of her deep draught, QE2 got stuck in commercial ports on some of our cruises. In Rotterdam, Queen Victoria got the central dock and QE2 was in the back of beyond. They didn't tell us about this until we docked, possibly because they were hoping the two ships could share the "good" location. There was a "20 minute" shuttle service that actually took 40 minutes. When we were ready to go back to the ship, so were lots of other people and the shuttle was backed up. I would have paid for a cab, but we wouldn't have been allowed into the rabbit warren of a port.

 

Your comment about the ship being the "big gorilla" is a good one. Part of my pre-cruise research is to check port schedules to find out how many other ships will be disgorging thousands of passengers when we're there. The more ships there are in port, the more likely I am to book a tour with my ship.

 

Another strategy to beat the tour is to do that literally. If there is somewhere you want to see, get off the ship quickly, grab a cab and GO. We did that in Stockholm and had the Vasa museum all to ourselves. We were at the top tier, having seen the exhibits, when the buses started to arrive. We could see down to the entry area, and it was like looking at Times Square on New Year's Eve (except everyone appeared to be sober). The only impact the crowds had on us was that it was like swimming upstream to make our way to the door.

Edited February 24, 2016 by 3rdGenCunarder

[OlsSalt]

How few have forced shopping experiences? Maybe that's true for some itineraries (perhaps due to lack of options), but I just looked at HAL's tour offerings for a couple of ports in the Mediterranean. If you exclude the private vehicle offerings, almost every tour mentions some type of forced shopping stop, be it the cameo factory or wood box factory in Naples/Sorrento, or the rug factory or leather factory in Kusadasi....

 

One thing I will say -- at least HAL discloses the stops. Some lines do not.

 

If you truly have arranged a private tour (not a spot on a regularly run tour open to all comers), you should never have any problem setting the tour program exactly as you want it. You're the one calling the shots. I generally specify NO shopping stops on any tours I set up.

 

The key is HAL discloses these stops because they are enjoyed by many passengers. We avoid them like the plague but at least we know up front. Thank you Hal for not only doing this but impressing on local guides this is what is expected - though not always successfully.

 

I have been on aHAL tours when the local tour leader claims some of the fellow passengers requested a shopping stop. But when they got groans in response and it was put to a vote, these stops were turned down.

[3rdGenCunarder]

The key is HAL discloses these stops because they are enjoyed by many passengers. We avoid them like the plague but at least we know up front. Thank you Hal for not only doing this but impressing on local guides this is what is expected - though not always successfully.

 

I have been on aHAL tours when the local tour leader claims some of the fellow passengers requested a shopping stop. But when they got groans in response and it was put to a vote, these stops were turned down.

 

Wow, I'm impressed that you were able to stop the shopping. Any time I've been on a tour, the shopping stops were non-negotiable. On a tour in St Lucia, we had a stop in a "cute village" (aka collection of shacks with tchotchke tables outside). The last woman to return had bought a souvenir carving just like ones we'd already seen at two other stops. Her friend HAD TO HAVE ONE and ran off the bus before anyone could stop her. And we sat and waited while she shopped. :mad:

 

I appreciate that people want to shop. I do take a look at some of the stops but I've been to enough ports, especially in the Caribbean, to be able to spot the tables full of mass-produced junk and move on.

[sammiedawg]

We usually do private tours.

 

I do not see anything wrong with HAL's sales pitch. It seems reasonable to me.

Cannot understand the fear mongering claim nor do I read any implied fear mongering into the wording. To describe it this way is, IMHO, a little over the top.

 

Give HAL a break on this.

 

I commented that "my experience" with HAL selling shore excursions involved fear mongering and I stand by that. Attend any of their port talks or shore excursion talks and they Speak in dramatic fashion about how you can be left behind in port if you do not take their excursions.

I was not referring to the OP's comment about Hammerfest.

[InTheWASide]

I commented that "my experience" with HAL selling shore excursions involved fear mongering and I stand by that. Attend any of their port talks or shore excursion talks and they Speak in dramatic fashion about how you can be left behind in port if you do not take their excursions.

.

 

It's pretty plain and simple.

 

If you book a HAL tour they know where you are, who you're with and they won't leave until it comes back (because they'll know that too).

 

If you pick a guy at the pier offering something similar, he may be a GREAT tour guide and a lower price. But they won't know where you are if you're caught in traffic, etc and they won't hold the ship for a "one off" situation. Of course there's also the possibility that the person at the pier is total crap, they may not be licensed or insured, if you get free time and they say "I'll be back" they might not be, etc. Caveat emptor DEFINITELY applies here. And what if the port has to be skipped. If you book through a 3rd party they may stand by their cancellation policy. HAL will always refund excursions if the port is cancelled.

 

The "markup" is worth it to many. Think of it as a "built in insurance." As we all know, insurance is at each traveler's discretion but many find it to be a tremendous value.

Edited February 24, 2016 by InTheWASide

[Bowie MeMe]

I commented that "my experience" with HAL selling shore excursions involved fear mongering and I stand by that. Attend any of their port talks or shore excursion talks and they Speak in dramatic fashion about how you can be left behind in port if you do not take their excursions. I was not referring to the OP's comment about Hammerfest.

 

Unfortunately on every single cruise, somebody has the misfortune or bad luck or their own stupidity to be the one that "misses the boat!". It is true that the ship can not wait even a few minutes for an individual passenger. The cost of time at the dock is very expensive and no HAL is not going to pay several hundred thousand dollars to rearrange tugs and pilots and lane charges while a passenger does not make the ship in time. When the ship leaves is exact! They do wait for their tours on a rare occasion when one or more are late because it might be worth the money to avoid the bad public relations of leaving 100 people or so behind. One person's dramatic "fear mongering" is to many people a timely and clear warning of what happens if you are not on the ship when you should be. Usually it involves waving good-bye to the ship as it sails without you. There are a ton of posts from passengers missing the boat and having to find their own way to the next port (if possible.):eek:

[Bowie MeMe]

It's pretty plain and simple.

 

If you book a HAL tour they know where you are, who you're with and they won't leave until it comes back (because they'll know that too).

 

If you pick a guy at the pier offering something similar, he may be a GREAT tour guide and a lower price. But they won't know where you are if you're caught in traffic, etc and they won't hold the ship for a "one off" situation. Of course there's also the possibility that the person at the pier is total crap, they may not be licensed or insured, if you get free time and they say "I'll be back" they might not be, etc. Caveat emptor DEFINITELY applies here. And what if the port has to be skipped. If you book through a 3rd party they may stand by their cancellation policy. HAL will always refund excursions if the port is cancelled.

 

The "markup" is worth it to many. Think of it as a "built in insurance." As we all know, insurance is at each traveler's discretion but many find it to be a tremendous value.

 

Good way of stating why ship's excursions are often worth the larger price. Our choices are usually: Ship's tour or if little interests us at the port or we have done a major tour at the destination before we are content to walk around and explore on our own. Before and After cruises we often do private guide tours arranged before the trip and with written out agreements on what we will do and what it will cost (and ability to adjust as we go). These arrangements are not exactly the same as the shore excursion of a few hours duration. I do insure these private tours by including them in my overall travel insurance umbrella plan bought from an independent agent not the cruise line or airline.

[cruisemom42]

Unfortunately on every single cruise, somebody has the misfortune or bad luck or their own stupidity to be the one that "misses the boat!". It is true that the ship can not wait even a few minutes for an individual passenger. The cost of time at the dock is very expensive and no HAL is not going to pay several hundred thousand dollars to rearrange tugs and pilots and lane charges while a passenger does not make the ship in time. When the ship leaves is exact! They do wait for their tours on a rare occasion when one or more are late because it might be worth the money to avoid the bad public relations of leaving 100 people or so behind. One person's dramatic "fear mongering" is to many people a timely and clear warning of what happens if you are not on the ship when you should be. Usually it involves waving good-bye to the ship as it sails without you. There are a ton of posts from passengers missing the boat and having to find their own way to the next port (if possible.):eek:

 

 

I wouldn't say there are a ton of these posts. I go looking for them from time to time for various reasons.... (mainly to see if they say their passports were retrieved and left with the port agent).

 

I also propose that in most cases where the ship is missed, it is not the fault of a private tour operator but rather because the party involved lost track of time at the beach, while shopping, or while partying.

 

There are excellent reviews available for many private operators, and lots of people look at them. Thus, operators make very sure that you don't miss your ship, because one or two bad reviews and their business is likely sunk.

[Karennella]

We were on the Prisendam in Port Said Egypt and they announced we would be late leaving as they were waiting for two people to turn up. I think it happened elsewhere on that cruise.

[pbnjrockette]

I haven't seen this before on HAL's online ship excursion page.

 

"Although much of Hammerfest is readily accessible on foot, Holland America Line has partnered with a tour operator here to offer a local perspective and commentary that would not be present when exploring on your own. Sources of outside revenue are scarce in small villages such as Hammerfest and the local population benefits from tour participation."

 

 

When I posted this originally it was mostly because I had NEVER seen a comment like this from HAL on any of their other tours. We have taken a variety of tours from cruise companies---some on HAL some on others, some private tours. Usually depends on the ports---will definitely take a ship tour if there is any question of timing on the return and will never take a tour that we have not researched or hasn't been recommended by a friend/ cruise critic traveler / trip advisor. We have rarely disappointed in our private tours, more often disappointed in our ship tours as they seem less "skilled" (but that may be particular to some ports) We recently took a tour with HAL in Panama with a very poorly trained tour guide--we did let HAL know in hopes that feedback will improve future excursions.

 

Some interesting comments on this thread! All opinions appreciated! :)

[galensgrl]

Unfortunately on every single cruise, somebody has the misfortune or bad luck or their own stupidity to be the one that "misses the boat!". It is true that the ship can not wait even a few minutes for an individual passenger. The cost of time at the dock is very expensive and no HAL is not going to pay several hundred thousand dollars to rearrange tugs and pilots and lane charges while a passenger does not make the ship in time. When the ship leaves is exact! They do wait for their tours on a rare occasion when one or more are late because it might be worth the money to avoid the bad public relations of leaving 100 people or so behind. One person's dramatic "fear mongering" is to many people a timely and clear warning of what happens if you are not on the ship when you should be. Usually it involves waving good-bye to the ship as it sails without you. There are a ton of posts from passengers missing the boat and having to find their own way to the next port (if possible.):eek:

 

There are scores of videos on youtube showing people coming back to the ship late, and the ship leaving port without them. It seems this is true across all the cruise lines, if a ship waits for you that's a miracle. DH is so paranoid about not being back to the ship ontime that he insists on being on the ship at least an hour before it's supposed to leave port. As it is we seldom book excursions with anyone, and usually just hang out in the port and have lunch and see some sights and museums if possible. Of course it depends on how much time we have in port as well.

 

Lorie

[3rdGenCunarder]

There are scores of videos on youtube showing people coming back to the ship late, and the ship leaving port without them. It seems this is true across all the cruise lines, if a ship waits for you that's a miracle. DH is so paranoid about not being back to the ship ontime that he insists on being on the ship at least an hour before it's supposed to leave port. As it is we seldom book excursions with anyone, and usually just hang out in the port and have lunch and see some sights and museums if possible. Of course it depends on how much time we have in port as well.

 

Lorie

 

Yup, my husband has the same rule. We've heard too many stories of "dock runners."

 

They say the most expensive picture you can take is your ship departing from port.

[socreader]

I haven't seen this before on HAL's online ship excursion page.

 

"Although much of Hammerfest is readily accessible on foot, Holland America Line has partnered with a tour operator here to offer a local perspective and commentary that would not be present when exploring on your own. Sources of outside revenue are scarce in small villages such as Hammerfest and the local population benefits from tour participation."

 

With private tours arranged directly with the vendor the vendor receives all the proceeds instead of sharing it with the cruise line.

[Hlitner]

There are scores of videos on youtube showing people coming back to the ship late, and the ship leaving port without them. It seems this is true across all the cruise lines, if a ship waits for you that's a miracle. DH is so paranoid about not being back to the ship ontime that he insists on being on the ship at least an hour before it's supposed to leave port. As it is we seldom book excursions with anyone, and usually just hang out in the port and have lunch and see some sights and museums if possible. Of course it depends on how much time we have in port as well.

 

Lorie

 

We help quite a few here on CC and even on cruises who want to do independent travel in various ports (primarily Europe). But when somebody mentions to us that they have a fear of missing the ship we stop helping and immediately suggest they just take ship's tours. That being said, in over forty years of extensive cruising to 6 continents, we have done nearly every port on our own and never missed the ship....nor have we ever actually met anyone else who actually missed the ship. It can happen, and most independent travelers always have a "Plan B" which is what to do if one would miss the ship (normally catch-up at the next port).

 

I would add that especially in Europe, DW and I will often venture 2 and sometimes even 3 hours from the port via trains or rental cars. The biggest impediment to adventurous travel is one's own demons :).

 

Hank

[OCruisers]

No problem with HAL promoting their excursions.

Lots of people like to take HAL's excursions -- not out of fear of missing the "boat" ... but because they are the easiest way.

They pick you up from the ship ... take to have fun seeing things ... and return you to the ship! All without any advanced planning on your part! :D

LuLu

[iancal]

HAL is a business. End of story. Not a travel club, not a heritage association.

 

They have an absolute right to promote their products in any way that they see fit. They simply have to be truthful, set the right expectations, and deliver on those expectations.

 

Not really certain what the fuss is about. Take the excursion, do an independent tour, or simply stay on the ship. The choice is yours. What is there to whine about? A little basic research prior to the cruise should assist anyone in making this decision.

Edited February 25, 2016 by iancal

[Blue Mudshark]

HAL is a business.

Of course.

End of story.

No, not really.

 

Of course they're a business, and they are promoting their product. But in their promotion, they are claiming that choosing to do business with their competitors, or tour independently, is bad for the local economy. That claim deserves criticism and scrutiny.

 

Organized commercial tours, such as tours sold by cruise lines, are full of side business and kickbacks. The tours are usually steered to shopping opportunities with merchants who are deep into a business model full of kickbacks and hand-shaking. HAL's tours are preferable to HAL, for the guarantees of not "missing the boat", of course, but mostly because they and the merchants they favor bring money to HAL and their own business partners.

 

An independent tourist can contribute as much or more to the local economy as a tourist on a HAL tour contributes, although HAL many not participate in the commerce. And an independent tourist can return to the pier on time without paying HAL or one of their local commercial partnesr. For HAL to imply otherwise is dishonest, and "end of story" doesn't excuse dishonesty.

 

I don't think anyone is really criticizing HAL merely for promoting their own profit motives. When HAL pretends that the local economy depends on HAL's profit motives at the expense of other restaurateurs, merchants, and tour guides outside of HAL's profit motives, that pretense is criticized, with justification.

[iancal]

I do not have my rose closed glasses on when I read this stuff. Don't believe that my clothes will be whiter than white if we use Tide detergent.

 

We almost always do independent tours for some of the reasons that you mentioned but I still have no real argument with HAL on this. And goodness knows I have lots of criticisms for them in other areas and time seems to be increasing them as HAL's product offerings keep slipping.

Edited February 26, 2016 by iancal

[3rdGenCunarder]

Of course.

 

No, not really.

 

Of course they're a business, and they are promoting their product. But in their promotion, they are claiming that choosing to do business with their competitors, or tour independently, is bad for the local economy. That claim deserves criticism and scrutiny.

 

Organized commercial tours, such as tours sold by cruise lines, are full of side business and kickbacks. The tours are usually steered to shopping opportunities with merchants who are deep into a business model full of kickbacks and hand-shaking. HAL's tours are preferable to HAL, for the guarantees of not "missing the boat", of course, but mostly because they and the merchants they favor bring money to HAL and their own business partners.

 

An independent tourist can contribute as much or more to the local economy as a tourist on a HAL tour contributes, although HAL many not participate in the commerce. And an independent tourist can return to the pier on time without paying HAL or one of their local commercial partnesr. For HAL to imply otherwise is dishonest, and "end of story" doesn't excuse dishonesty.

 

I don't think anyone is really criticizing HAL merely for promoting their own profit motives. When HAL pretends that the local economy depends on HAL's profit motives at the expense of other restaurateurs, merchants, and tour guides outside of HAL's profit motives, that pretense is criticized, with justification.

 

(bold is mine)

This is like the shopping maps with "recommended stores." I don't know what HAL gets out of these relationships, but in a port with many stores, their map will identify only a few. So they're steering business to those stores... in return for something?

[serendipity1499]

I haven't seen this before on HAL's online ship excursion page.

 

"Although much of Hammerfest is readily accessible on foot, Holland America Line has partnered with a tour operator here to offer a local perspective and commentary that would not be present when exploring on your own. Sources of outside revenue are scarce in small villages such as Hammerfest and the local population benefits from tour participation."

Not a guilt trip at all.. it is wonderful Salesmanship.. I used to give Salesmanship classes to newly hired as well as refreshers to older Res.Agents.. IMO the person who thought that up should be congratulated by his/her bosses! If I was still giving classes, I would not hesitate to use that as an example..

 

We help quite a few here on CC and even on cruises who want to do independent travel in various ports (primarily Europe). But when somebody mentions to us that they have a fear of missing the ship we stop helping and immediately suggest they just take ship's tours. That being said, in over forty years of extensive cruising to 6 continents, we have done nearly every port on our own and never missed the ship....nor have we ever actually met anyone else who actually missed the ship. It can happen, and most independent travelers always have a "Plan B" which is what to do if one would miss the ship (normally catch-up at the next port).

 

I would add that especially in Europe, DW and I will often venture 2 and sometimes even 3 hours from the port via trains or rental cars. The biggest impediment to adventurous travel is one's own demons :).

 

Hank

 

When we were on one of our cruises, can't remember which one we watched people being left at the dock..

 

You might want to read this man's post about being left at the dock:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1157383

 

Beware!! Westerdam Capt. Waits for noboby

 

There have been several other threads about people being left at the dock..

Edited February 26, 2016 by serendipity1499

[iancal]

I think that a far more grevious misrepresentation by HAL can be found in their MDR.

 

There is more often than not a huge difference between the food described on the menu pages and what is actually put down in front of you. Reality falls well short of expectation a little too often in this venue.

[NaughtyNanna]

Not quite the small, quaint fishing village I was expecting! May have to do more research about options!

 

Regards

Jan

[Blue Mudshark]

"Sources of outside revenue are scarce in small villages such as Hammerfest"

 

Is a town with a population of more than 7,000 considered a "small village"? The town's biggest source of outside revenue is the fishing industry (both the Barent's Sea fleet and local fish-farming). Other industries include a major petroleum port, and other maritime industries.

 

The notion that the local economy depends on HAL-sponsored tours smells somewhat fishy.