Possible missing passenger - Liberty

[pbfp2008]

Although the previous quote that garnered the above response does appear a bit callus, I am curious about at least part of this question.

 

The possibility of someone losing a life is never something to be joking about but in a situation like this what exactly is the "right" thing to do? Not what Carnival is or isn't legally obligated to do. Everyone understands the Cruise Contract is the wild card that allows the cruise lines to basically do what ever they want without question. Most ships are also registered in other countries so they are basically untouchable legally.

 

The questions today for Carnival becomes what is the Morally Correct vs. Legally Correct response?

 

Understanding that at the ships current position the Coast Guard may have limited accountability and limited available resources to respond, it would appear there is no one else but Carnival who could realistically search for this individual, if Carnival does not continue some type of search of the water, possibly based on the last navigational track, who else is there? Should something else have been attempted beyond a search of the ship? If so, how thorough and how long? If that was your loved one missing, possibly in the water would it change your thinking? Yes, people have survived for long periods of time in the water, so although unlikely, if she's in the water right now she could still be alive. For the other passengers on the ship what sacrifice should they be asked to make in a situation like this? How long should they be asked to have their vacations interupted?

 

The other piece in play here is the Carnival Liberty has missed it's stops in Cozumel both of its last two sailings. This is the third consecutive sailing with the potential to miss Cozumel again or be significantly delayed by todays events. Carnival has been taking heat from a story that was posted by at least one Houston news orginization (KPRC2) on both it's web site and Facebook pages and significant heat from cruisers of those sailings. The comments are ugly.

 

http://www.click2houston.com/news/carnival-liberty-having-problems-with-ship-bow-thrusters

 

 

Is there any chance these things could have influenced the decision for a shortened search? I am not suggesting they did or didn't, just asking the question. In regards to what the proper response should be in these types of situations I am just curious as to what the cruise community thinks.

Interesting questions. Somewhat off topic, I checked that Houston new link, and it's laughable the number of people not only claiming to have been on those sailings, but the number that think they deserve full refunds and want to file class action suits...

[Dave994]

Maybe Liberty's maneuverability is impaired because of the lingering bow thruster issue, making it difficult to search a specific area? In other words, they have to make wide, sweeping turns instead of being able to just spin around in place.

 

 

Very good point. Perhaps the ships issues prevented them from doing a search? If it was my loved one, I would want the ship to stop, turn around and search until they found them, other people's vacation be damned. Every life is more precious than anyone's vacation.

 

I find it odd that the ship just kept on going, as they would be the people in the best position to execute a search. How long would it take a coast guard to reach their position?

[chengkp75]

As I posted previously, most ships do not have automated man overboard systems. These systems are designed to capture an incident using video, thermal and radar to determine if the object going over the side is human, and then to trigger an alarm on the bridge and lock the video image.

 

Most ships have a security camera that looks down each side of the ship. This camera's video is recorded, but is not constantly monitored. If someone comes up missing, then they will review the video for the time stamp. Some ships also combine this video camera with infrared for low light imaging.

[Naomi John]

My word. Just finished the thread.

[firemanbobswife]

Very good point. Perhaps the ships issues prevented them from doing a search? If it was my loved one, I would want the ship to stop, turn around and search until they found them, other people's vacation be damned. Every life is more precious than anyone's vacation.

 

I find it odd that the ship just kept on going, as they would be the people in the best position to execute a search. How long would it take a coast guard to reach their position?

 

 

Or maybe once they reviewed the footage they saw what time the person actually went overboard and based on the time/distance travelled, along with the currents, deemed turning around to search as futile and left it up to the CG and/or other ships closer in proximity to where the person might be located now. Just pure speculation on my part.

[Crusin Karen]

I cannot imagine living thru this nightmare, even if I was only another passenger on the ship. It is just so very very sad.

[LMaxwell]

Maybe Liberty's maneuverability is impaired because of the lingering bow thruster issue, making it difficult to search a specific area? In other words, they have to make wide, sweeping turns instead of being able to just spin around in place.

 

Ships don't use thrusters to make turns while out at sea. They are for close quarter positioning to "walk" sideways. Even if every thruster, bow and stern, were disabled it would have no negative impact on maneuvers in open ocean.

 

To "spin" the ship in open water, and this would only be done at slow speeds, one propeller could be engaged forward and another propeller engaged in reverse. Otherwise standard steering would accomplish turns the same whether thrusters worker or not.

Edited May 14, 2016 by LMaxwell

[chengkp75]

The ship is required to return to the estimated site of the incident, unless the government agency involved releases the ship. Cruise ships are not the best platform to perform SAR in open oceans, so once governmental assets, from whatever country has taken lead, are on site, they will generally release the ship.

 

Loss of one of 6 thrusters would have absolutely no effect on Liberty's ability to perform a SAR mission, unless it was blowing a full gale, in which case the ship would be released even sooner. Even without thrusters, there are pre-designed turning procedures that can bring a ship back to its original track line, not just a reciprocal course, but the exact track line within a couple of ship lengths.

[Kittybork]

I get where you're coming from, but things do get out. If it were me on the ship and my loved ones were at home, then I would either message them using the Social Media Plan or call them from my cabin phone for $1.99 a minute to ease their worries. I travel frequently by myself and I would absolutely get in contact with them especially if it were on the news.

 

I would do the same, but people on the ship may not know that the incident is on the news.

[firemanbobswife]

I would do the same, but people on the ship may not know that the incident is on the news.

 

 

True. I would still probably do it anyway just in case.

[Rgo772]

It's not the coast guards job beyond 1-2 miles from the coast. There have been people recovered from the ocean that have been out for many hours beyond 12 before. It's kinda silly to not make an attempt.

 

Carnival must not want to pay out everyone's FCCs of 20-30% from people whining about missing a port.

I was is the coast guard and we saved people all over the world not 1-2 miles out. My ship passed many cruise ships while on patrol. The coast guard is never that far away and the navy has ships and planes around also. If someone is missing I guarantee they would be looking.

[chengkp75]

Ships don't use thrusters to make turns while out at sea. They are for close quarter positioning to "walk" sideways. Even if every thruster, bow and stern, were disabled it would have no negative impact on maneuvers in open ocean.

 

To "spin" the ship in open water, and this would only be done at slow speeds, one propeller could be engaged forward and another propeller engaged in reverse. Otherwise standard steering would accomplish turns the same whether thrusters worker or not.

 

However, further to what I've said about Williamson turns, etc, thrusters can be used to turn at sea, if the speed is low enough. You can "split" the screws to turn, but thrusters work just as well.

[Dave994]

As I posted previously, most ships do not have automated man overboard systems. These systems are designed to capture an incident using video, thermal and radar to determine if the object going over the side is human, and then to trigger an alarm on the bridge and lock the video image.

 

 

 

Most ships have a security camera that looks down each side of the ship. This camera's video is recorded, but is not constantly monitored. If someone comes up missing, then they will review the video for the time stamp. Some ships also combine this video camera with infrared for low light imaging.

 

 

Why don't all ships have this system? Seems like it would have been very beneficial here and in many other cases. Is it purely cost related?

 

And hopefully there will be a time when all ships are required to have it, regardless of age of the ship.

[Dave994]

The ship is required to return to the estimated site of the incident, unless the government agency involved releases the ship. Cruise ships are not the best platform to perform SAR in open oceans, so once governmental assets, from whatever country has taken lead, are on site, they will generally release the ship.

 

 

 

Loss of one of 6 thrusters would have absolutely no effect on Liberty's ability to perform a SAR mission, unless it was blowing a full gale, in which case the ship would be released even sooner. Even without thrusters, there are pre-designed turning procedures that can bring a ship back to its original track line, not just a reciprocal course, but the exact track line within a couple of ship lengths.

 

 

Ok. So according to those on board the ship didn't stop or turn around. They kept going. Could they have been released without turning around or even stopping?

[spyingeyes]

Statement from Carnival:

 

Earlier today, a 33-year-old female guest on the cruise ship Carnival Liberty was reported missing by traveling companions. A ship-wide search was conducted along with a review of the ship’s camera footage. Unfortunately, it appears the guest may have gone overboard early this morning. Authorities were notified including the U.S. Coast Guard which is initiating a search effort in the area where the ship was located when the individual was last seen.

 

Carnival’s CareTeam is providing support to the guest’s traveling companions and family. We are keeping our guest and her loved ones in our thoughts during this difficult time.

[Steve Dore]

The ship is required to return to the estimated site of the incident, unless the government agency involved releases the ship. Cruise ships are not the best platform to perform SAR in open oceans, so once governmental assets, from whatever country has taken lead, are on site, they will generally release the ship.

 

Loss of one of 6 thrusters would have absolutely no effect on Liberty's ability to perform a SAR mission, unless it was blowing a full gale, in which case the ship would be released even sooner. Even without thrusters, there are pre-designed turning procedures that can bring a ship back to its original track line, not just a reciprocal course, but the exact track line within a couple of ship lengths.

 

I just have to say thank you. You are a breath of fresh air to these forums in a forest full of misinformation, pettiness, and know-it-allism. You explain things so that everyone can understand them and most importantly, you provide facts, not "I think". You are probably 1 of 3 posters here whose information I trust fully that you could tell me the sky is purple and I would agree.

 

Again, sincerely, thank you!

Edited May 14, 2016 by Steve Dore

[LMaxwell]

However, further to what I've said about Williamson turns, etc, thrusters can be used to turn at sea, if the speed is low enough. You can "split" the screws to turn, but thrusters work just as well.

 

Yes. But point being that the ship is not losing / missing any ability to maneuver in open water due to restrictions on the thrusters. All normal capability for steering and propulsion in open water is still present.

[happy cruzin]

The ship is required to return to the estimated site of the incident, unless the government agency involved releases the ship. Cruise ships are not the best platform to perform SAR in open oceans, so once governmental assets, from whatever country has taken lead, are on site, they will generally release the ship.

 

 

 

Loss of one of 6 thrusters would have absolutely no effect on Liberty's ability to perform a SAR mission, unless it was blowing a full gale, in which case the ship would be released even sooner. Even without thrusters, there are pre-designed turning procedures that can bring a ship back to its original track line, not just a reciprocal course, but the exact track line within a couple of ship lengths.

 

 

Thanks for confirming. This was my understanding as well......

[happy cruzin]

I just have to say thank you. You are a breath of fresh air to these forums in a forest full of misinformation, pettiness, and know-it-allism. You explain things so that everyone can understand them and most importantly, you provide facts, not "I think". You are probably 1 of 3 posters here whose information I trust fully that you could tell me the sky is purple and I would agree.

 

Again, sincerely, thank you!

 

 

Yeah....what he said! ^^^^^^^^

[redstapler7]

As the above statement release from carnival confirms, we were told about 30 mins ago that the cameras suggested she fell in the water. How or why isn't my business, I feel for her and her family.

 

There is a very different mood on the ship this evening, most don't know what to say.

[cdamion]

Ok. So according to those on board the ship didn't stop or turn around. They kept going. Could they have been released without turning around or even stopping?

 

...and who's to say the ship didn't immediately notify the authorities as soon as they suspected somebody may be overboard. The Coast Guard may have been on the way by the time they were doing the cabin to cabin search.

[firemanbobswife]

Here's a link to a news article

http://abc13.com/1337990/

[tiggerkaj]

Why don't all ships have this system? Seems like it would have been very beneficial here and in many other cases. Is it purely cost related?

 

And hopefully there will be a time when all ships are required to have it, regardless of age of the ship.

 

Last June we were on Norw Getaway and they have the system. A woman jumped overboard and the minute the system picked this up a large buoy was automatically put in the water and the ship very quickly turned around. They ended up rescuing her I believe because of this equipment. Getaway is a newer ship, would be great like you said if other ships were required to add it.

 

Thinking of her family. I know how devastating it is to have a missing loved one.

Edited May 14, 2016 by tiggerkaj
added statement

[happy cruzin]

Ok. So according to those on board the ship didn't stop or turn around. They kept going. Could they have been released without turning around or even stopping?

 

 

Yes.

 

It's dependent on when she was reported missing.

 

If it was not reported as it happened and the ship was "too far away" from the determined location there would be little point in sending the ship back to that point when other agencies could conduct an effective search sooner.

[spyingeyes]