Are we being too ambitious--day trips to Liverpool and Paris from London

[NoWhiners]

Paris could be done 'drive-by' in a day but IMHO you miss what Paris/France is really about. I would do a night's stopover so that you can enjoy at least one decent French lunch. HoHo bus shows you the sights and then you can pick a few for more detailed visits (I would recommend Rodin's house if you like sculpture). The catacombs are interesting as well. Be aware that some sights/museums have weird closing days so do your homework first.

 

OP - I notice you say you are doing a BI cruise - does it not call at Liverpool? Many do this as a port of call.

 

I agree we won't get the true flavor but we have to work with what we have (and I would be OK with skipping Paris, except for DH :D). I will be sure and check closing times but it is unlikely we would go into many sights (maybe the Louvre).

 

Unfortunately, this cruise does not stop at Liverpool, I was hoping it would. That would have solved one problem. I am a little surprised it isn't but we do get to go to quite a few places, and an overnight in Dublin.

 

Thanks

ML

[NoWhiners]

The fare structure on the UK rail network is diabolically complicated, with huge variations depending on time of travel, time of booking, routing, flexibility requirements, type of ticketing, split-ticketing, purchase of rail cards (no advantage to the OP), etc ad infinitum.

Come back nationalised British Rail, all is forgiven ? ;)

 

JB :)

 

Thanks for the notes about changing trains. When I looked I tried to avoid this. And I did see some great fares but not so great if you can't actually book them!

 

And I completely agree about the fare structure being diabolically complicated. I am wrestling with whether we should get an Oyster Card or Travelcard for our week in London and my head hurts from reading all about it. And the need for a picture, and having to go to certain rail stations to get it (and some sort of 2 for 1 offer) and...

 

Thanks

ML

[NoWhiners]

However, you can sometimes get good deals on fares for Eurostar. They were recently doing offers for £25 each way. I do wish that word 'Chunnel' would be banned. It is the Channel Tunnel.

 

Yes, there are sometimes delays. We take our car on Eurotunnel to France frequently and sometimes experience delays, but we have personally encountered any problems for about a year.

 

I also think that Paris deserves at least an overnight, but it can be done in a day. Instead of wasting time having lunch I would take something with me to eat.

 

Liverpool is also worth a visit. Apart from the Beatles there are some excellent museums.

 

 

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Wow, that would be a great fare! Do you have a sense of when they offer deals like this--far in advance, closer to the day, certain times of year, etc?

 

Thanks

ML

[NoWhiners]

 

OP - go for it, have fun. You can do a lot in 8 or 9 hours in Paris. Yes, do your planning, decide what you really want to do and don't forget your Euros!

 

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Thanks for the encouragement. Lots of planning but that is part of the fun :D

 

Thanks

ML

[NoWhiners]

The test booking I did was out of Euston on 19th September leaving at 7.07am, arriving 9.20am - direct service and return departing 19.47 arriving 22.06 - again a direct train. Total cost £45 per person. Not complicated at all.

 

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This is similar to what I found for a test booking, but not quite as good as £45. I will keep checking. I am really leaning toward trying Liverpool. I love riding on the trains in Europe :D

 

Thanks

ML

[NoWhiners]

I wanted to add that the train system Europe is a dream. Nothing like the embarrassment we have in NY. We just came back from a week in London and then took the train to Edinburgh. The entire trip was a joy.

 

 

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LOL--I grew up in the city and this was before they unified all the lines. Had to juggle IRT, BMD, IND, maybe 1 or 2 others? It is easier now but years of neglect are finally wreaking havoc. I have been reading about the mess in NYC. Seems like folks there are in for a long tough slog.

 

Europe definitely works better, in my experience.

 

ML

[NoWhiners]

Either you were very lucky, or the trains in New York are total nightmares. The UK railways have had more than their share of challenges this summer. There have been floods, overhead lines drooping in the heat, computer glitches and more.

 

Some trains in NYC are total nightmares now. Lots of work to be done to bring them up to Europe's standard. I just watched a show (Impossible Engineering) on London's Crossrail project. I missed the first half, but it looks very ambitious, supposed to be complete next year (maybe in time for us to be there).

 

We just got back from NYC yesterday. Staying in New Jersey for a few days and figuring out the Hudson Light Rail, PATH train (especially at weekends) and the subway was not easy. NY buses were not much clearer. DW lived in NY for many years and we were confused at times (particularly by which buses accept the Metrocard and which do not).

 

I have never understood NYC buses :D

 

ML

[newport dave]

JB

 

Thanks for all this info. Yes, it was clear we would have to leave at 0 dark thirty, but we thought we might try for the 8 am train. Not quite as bad as 7 :) Love the Monty Python reference, we are big fans!

 

It didn't occur to me to take passports, so thanks for that note too.

 

It seemed like Liverpool fares weren't quite that high (and I saw a post above about lower fares on Virgin) but I have to admit I don't completely understand the Virgin rail thing--is it a private rail line? And i did see that the lower fares get us there after noon, which doesn't seem optimal :D

 

Thanks for your help.

 

ML

 

The trains are operated under a franchise offered by the government by private companies, hence Virgin operating the train to Liverpool from London.

[newport dave]

Some trains in NYC are total nightmares now. Lots of work to be done to bring them up to Europe's standard. I just watched a show (Impossible Engineering) on London's Crossrail project. I missed the first half, but it looks very ambitious, supposed to be complete next year (maybe in time for us to be there).

 

 

 

I have never understood NYC buses :D

 

ML

 

Was in NY a few years ago and was shocked at the state and disrepair of the Metro system, absolutely shocking for one of the greatest cities in the world. Wasn't that impressed with Washington DC's either. Was that an extreme exercise in bland, monolithic concrete monstrosities!!!!

 

Also watched the Crossrail program, very good and amazing how they've achieved it. The line is supposed to open in Dec 18.

[Hatters cruiser]

JB

 

Thanks for all this info. Yes, it was clear we would have to leave at 0 dark thirty, but we thought we might try for the 8 am train. Not quite as bad as 7 :) Love the Monty Python reference, we are big fans!

 

It didn't occur to me to take passports, so thanks for that note too.

 

It seemed like Liverpool fares weren't quite that high (and I saw a post above about lower fares on Virgin) but I have to admit I don't completely understand the Virgin rail thing--is it a private rail line? And i did see that the lower fares get us there after noon, which doesn't seem optimal :D

 

Thanks for your help.

 

ML

 

The way the railways were privatised in the late 1980s-1990s is complicated.

The infrastructure belongs to a company called Network Rail, that is owned by the Department of Transport.

 

There are then a number of rail Franchises that have been created to run various routes through the country, that private companies bid for the right to run for a certain length of time. Currently Virgin Trains holds the rights to the Intercity West Coast Franchise that runs to Glasgow through cities such as Manchester and Liverpool.

 

However because they do not own the tracks other rail companies also use the same one for similar and slightly different routes in places.

 

Basically all the train operating companies are in private hands, expect when the Government has to step in if a company goes bust, which has happened in the past.

 

It also means that the Franchise operators on various routes may change over time, but Virgin has held this one since 1997.

[CeeCee59]

Spent three days in Liverpool this April and it wasn't enough! So much more to see than just the Beatles. The most listed buildings in England outside of London. Very walk-able city. My vote would be for Liverpool and spend at least one night so you have more time to enjoy it.

[John Bull]

The test booking I did was out of Euston on 19th September leaving at 7.07am, arriving 9.20am - direct service and return departing 19.47 arriving 22.06 - again a direct train. Total cost £45 per person. Not complicated at all.

 

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Hi again, Mabbiesmum,

 

Yes, that 7.07am from Euston still showing at the promo price on that random date and some other dates. :)

But on various other random dates that I dialled in, for example 15 Aug, 29 Sept, 4 Oct, the price for that train was £112 :(

The cheapest trains up to 3 hours later are from £87 with at least one change of train.

And no promo tickets available more than 4 months out - can't sell out of promo prices too early or we won't be able to advertise those low prices. :rolleyes:

So getting a sensible price means knowing when to make a booking or luck or a bit of both.

Or trying one of the split-ticketing sites.

No, not complicated at all ;)

 

I rarely use the trains - mainly because of the stupid and customer-unfriendly ticket-pricing structure.

 

JB :)

[NoWhiners]

Hi again, Mabbiesmum,

 

And no promo tickets available more than 4 months out - can't sell out of promo prices too early or we won't be able to advertise those low prices. :rolleyes:

So getting a sensible price means knowing when to make a booking or luck or a bit of both.

Or trying one of the split-ticketing sites.

No, not complicated at all ;)

 

JB :)

 

So, does this suggest we should look for promo tickets in late January for a trip May 13-20, 2018? Or are the promos less predictable than that?

 

Thanks

ML

[John Bull]

So, does this suggest we should look for promo tickets in late January for a trip May 13-20, 2018? Or are the promos less predictable than that?

 

Thanks

ML

 

From my limited test bookings today (tues 25 July) discounted tickets are available for some up-coming dates & not others, but I see no discounted tickets at all beyond Fri 8th December.

That's approx. 18 weeks ahead.

So in theory you should be seeing discounted fares for your 13th May onwards dates from about the second week in January.

Or mebbe earlier.

Or mebbie later.

Or mebbie never. :rolleyes:

You really need advice from someone who hasn't given up on trying to figure these things out.

 

Eurostar is significantly simpler.

Like the budget airlines, in the main they encourage early booking with low, low fares - going upwards as the date approaches & very expensive close to the date.

At the £25 quoted by London Towner it's probably worth risking that sort of money even if you're unsure whether you'll be going. By contrast, tickets for travel tomorrow are £169 for all outbound trains and the same for most of the trains back.:eek:

 

JB :)

[Cotswold Eagle]

The use of terms like "discounted" or "promo" tickets is a little misleading. These are Advance fares being costed, which must be booked in advance (!), although on Virgin this means up to an hour before departure (but don't bank on any being left then) and used on a specific train. Miss that train and you are faced with buying a new ticket. Train operators control how many Advance fares they sell and at what price - on the evening inbound from Liverpool, it looks as if there are 8 possible fares!

 

There are essentially three types of fare available:

Advance - by far the cheapest on long distance services, restrictions as above, only available as singles (the return fares quoted above are two singles)

Off-peak - can be bought at anytime (in advance or walk-up immediately before the train), only valid on services in off-peak times (generally after about 0930 and there may be evening peak restrictions too, depending on the route and operator)

Anytime - can be bought anytime and are valid on any service.

 

As an example, the Anytime fare on the Liverpool Virgin route is £159 (and that's the fare you will pay if you miss the one your Advance is valid for in the morning - eek!)

 

Train operators may run a variety of promotional fares, but unlikely on the West Coast Main I would think - focus on getting the cheapest Advance fares. The Best Fare Finder tool on Virgin's site is your best bet - it will show the cheapest fares at various times of day for a week around the date you enter.

 

So yes, it IS complicated, but they try to make it easy for you :) Using the National Rail app, I reckon there are about 33 possible fares for the journey folk have been costing above, ranging from £45 to £318! As soon as you can pick a day, buy the cheapest Advance fares you can find.

 

 

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[Cotswold Eagle]

Wow, that would be a great fare! Do you have a sense of when they offer deals like this--far in advance, closer to the day, certain times of year, etc?

 

 

 

Thanks

 

ML

 

 

Beware of Eurostar quoting promotional fares. They quote one-way (so that £25 fare would be £50 return) and will have restrictions and limited availability.

 

Looking through the next few months, £36 each way appears to be a widely available fare to Paris. I'd settle for that happily, it is a discounted fare - the standard cheapest fare is £44 (again limited availability).

 

Although hard to find, you can get a grid of cheapest fares on Eurostar too - for example, use the search on the right hand side of this page and tick 'Flexible with my dates'. It will show the current £29 promotion as available on a lot of dates, but clicking through you will see it only on a small number of trains, generally.

 

http://www.eurostar.com/uk-en/city-breaks/france-city-breaks/paris-city-breaks

 

Eurostar tickets are available 180 days in advance - although this is never quite exact. Book as soon as you can.

 

 

 

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[LondonTowner]

Yes, £25 on Eurostar are about the cheapest you will get. They send me their email alerts and I've never seen them cheaper than that.

 

 

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[Mabbiesmum]

I regularly use Virgin trains and booking tickets requires a little research and patience. Advance fares, the cheapest ones, a seldom available 12 weeks out - best fares are probably available around 6 - 8 weeks before travel. Regular checking is the best way to achieve your preferred fare. Availability is very much dependent on how many have already been sold as carriers only offer so many on any service.

 

Travelling very early, the first train leaves at 5.27, is inexpensive. Travel between 9 android 10.30 is probably the most expensive.

 

If you can put the Virgin trains app onto your phone this is a good way of quickly checking fares and you may even be able download an e-ticket. Not quite if it works for non UK purchases.

 

JB is obviously not a train fan but the service is very quick and relatively comfortable.

 

A little tip. An advance fare means you must travel on a specific train and you will be allocated a seat on that train. The allocation system fills up a carriage at a time so you will find the first couple of carriages will be rammed and others further downloaded the train may be empty. You do not need to sit in your allocated seat but can move to a different carriage.

 

I hope you make it to Liverpool

 

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[Mabbiesmum]

I do love it when the spell checker changes what you mean but I'm sure you'll get the gist

 

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[Mabbiesmum]

If you want a quick, direct, train it will be with Virgin trains

 

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[caripoo]

Liverpool yes......But honestly I think you would be cheating yourself trying to do an even long day in Paris:)

[John Bull]

The use of terms like "discounted" or "promo" tickets is a little misleading. These are Advance fares being costed, which must be booked in advance

 

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Hi Eagle,

 

Ah but I deliberately used the terms "discounted" and "promo".

Advance fares mean "booking in advance", they shouldn't mean "booking in advance as long as the limited number of advance-purchase priced tickets haven't already been snaffled".

 

And if you want to advance-purchase a ticket now for January, you pay £159 for a one-way ticket to Liverpool.

No advantage there there for advance booking. In fact by buying now you lose the opportunity to buy at promotional (sorry, "advance booking") prices later - as long as you time your purchase right.

 

Today Mabbiesmum found tickets for the 7.07am to Liverpool on 19 September at £28.

But if you need to travel on 4th October, today the advance-purchase fare for that same train is £159.

That's not the difference between an advance purchase and a walk-up, it's the difference between a discounted fare and one that isn't discounted.

 

So I'll stick to the words "promo" and "discounted".;)

 

 

 

JB is obviously not a train fan but the service is very quick and relatively comfortable.

 

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No problem with the trains, Mabbiesmum. :)

Just the damned ticketing :(

 

 

Just MHO as always

 

JB :)

[Cotswold Eagle]

It may be JYHO, JB, but Advance fares are NOT promotional, which are handled differently in the system.

 

Neither are they discounted - the Advance fare is what it is, it's not a discount off another sort of fare. You CAN get discounts on Advance fares (such as the child discount or using some railcards under certain conditions).

 

Fortunately, as we both agree, most TOCs now have good website tools or apps that find the cheapest fare for you. The days of having to know about the different sorts of fare and ask for the right one are mostly gone [emoji3]Unless you are looking for a promotional fare or discount, of course....

 

 

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[John Bull]

.................. most TOCs now have good website tools or apps that find the cheapest fare for you. The days of having to know about the different sorts of fare and ask for the right one are mostly gone [emoji3]Unless you are looking for a promotional fare or discount, of course....

 

 

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Or unless you're a technophobe using a steam-powered desktop, and haven't a clue what an app is even through your friends have tried talking you through them. :o

 

I prefer to take cash out of my wallet at the ticket office and ask for

"a cheap day-return to Liverpool please mate."

"Waddaymean, £318?? I don't want to buy the ruddy train." :eek:

 

JB :)

[NoWhiners]

Hi all

 

Thank you so much for all the additional info. I feel like I am starting to understand the rail ticketing. Rather than reply to each of you (like last night, when it took a whole page!), let me just thank John Bull, Mabbiesmum, Cotswold Eagle, LondonTowner, Newport Dave, hatters cruiser, and ceecee59 (I hope I didn't miss anyone, apologies if I did!).

 

We (actually DH) have decided to skip Paris (:)) and save it for another time. Works for me, and I think this means I get another trip to Europe at some point :D:D!

 

We will try Liverpool and I will start monitoring ticket prices in late January. Thanks to all of you for guiding us on that.

 

I do have one additional question--I can't quite work out what "TOC" means. Can anyone educate me--please?

 

Thank you again for your generous and expert advice,

ML