Violation Passenger Vessel Service Act???

[cruisestitch]

1 hour ago, gerelmx said:

 

If you book the 3rd cruise May 17 will break the violation because you have a stop in Victoria

Victoria isn’t a distant foreign port so it doesn’t help.

[gerelmx]

1 minute ago, cruisestitch said:

Victoria isn’t a distant foreign port so it doesn’t help.

 

They need to disembark in Victoria instead of Seattle

[kayehall]

I am not seeing the value of this PVSA?????

[PTC DAWG]

7 minutes ago, kayehall said:

I am not seeing the value of this PVSA?????

Do you want foreign flagged ships operating ferries all over the US? I think that is one reason for the law. 
 

Chengkp will weigh in here hopefully. 

[markeb]

27 minutes ago, kayehall said:

I am not seeing the value of this PVSA?????

We haven't had a good PVSA discussion since Canada closed it's ports in 2021...

 

The Act was passed in 1886. There was no cruise ship industry. Many if not most nations have similar laws that prohibit foreign carriers from transporting passengers between their ports. The same basic principle applies to air carriers in the age of air travel (US carriers generally operate to and from the US and follow on travel is via code share with a foreign carrier. Foreign carriers operate to and from the US and follow on travel in the US is via code share with a US carrier.).

 

The PVSA actually has no language on a distant foreign port; that's an administrative interpretation written into the Code of Federal Regulations based on a fascinating ruling (involving a global cruise that included a leg from I believe San Francisco to Hawaii) in the early 20th Century. The actual act expressly prohibits transporting passenger between US ports other than by a coastal qualified vessel (basically made and flagged in the US, which brings in a lot of related but separate customs and immigration issues).

 

Closed loop cruises are not subject to the PVSA. They're not transporting passengers from one US port to another. They make a foreign stop to qualify as a foreign journey, which allows crew visas and exemption from US taxes (again, same a US aircrew traveling around the world).

 

And as this thread demonstrates, it's the transportation of the passenger, not the itinerary of the cruise, that determines compliance. The cruise line cannot transport a passenger between two US ports no matter how many itineraries are strung together without stopping at a non US port somewhere outside of North America.

 

 

[cruisestitch]

This is a cabotage law, not unique to US.

 

It’s similar to the reason why Air Canada cannot carry domestic passengers from New York to Los Angeles. Nor can United carry domestic passengers from Toronto to Vancouver.  
 

many countries have such protectionist laws.

[BlerkOne]

5 hours ago, markeb said:

. The cruise line cannot transport a passenger between two US ports no matter how many itineraries are strung together without stopping at a non US port somewhere outside of North America.

 

5 hours ago, markeb said:

 

The cruise ship. If the cruise line had a different ship available for a s2s, it would be fine.

 

There are exceptions, for example Puerto Rico 

 

[BlerkOne]

18 minutes ago, cruisestitch said:

This is a cabotage law, not unique to US.

 

It’s similar to the reason why Air Canada cannot carry domestic passengers from New York to Los Angeles. Nor can United carry domestic passengers from Toronto to Vancouver.  
 

many countries have such protectionist laws.

Aka discriminatory.

[mahasamatman]

7 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

B2B on the same ship without a stop in a DISTANT foreign port is a violation.

 

It's not just the same ship. It's the same company.

[BlerkOne]

3 minutes ago, mahasamatman said:

 

It's not just the same ship. It's the same company.

We agree to disagree. The company is irrelevant as long as you completely disembark.

[markeb]

1 hour ago, BlerkOne said:

The cruise ship. If the cruise line had a different ship available for a s2s, it would be fine.

 

 

Yeah. Had to read the CBP documents again. They do say "vessel". 

 

Much of what is written on the PVSA isn't actually in the PVSA. And it's a relatively obscure piece of law outside of cruising. I know I've seen people apply it to a company instead of the individual vessel, but that's not how the information is presented by the governing agency. 

[SusieAV8R]

20 hours ago, Cruise Junky said:

You only have to look at the embarkation port and the disembarkation port. You’re doing a one way Honolulu to Seattle without hitting a foreign DISTANT port.  Can’t be done.  See if you can find another ship to do the Alaska portion.  

But wait a minute:  on B2B or B2B2B cruises, the ship must be zeroed out so ALL guests must disembark the ship.  Those doing these types of cruises disembark each time, go through customs and re-embark  the ship.  This will be done with each leg.  Something is not correct with the given scenario.  I would contact the sender of the email.  (It may be some bureaucrat has misunderstood the law.)

[markeb]

15 minutes ago, SusieAV8R said:

But wait a minute:  on B2B or B2B2B cruises, the ship must be zeroed out so ALL guests must disembark the ship.  Those doing these types of cruises disembark each time, go through customs and re-embark  the ship.  This will be done with each leg.  Something is not correct with the given scenario.  I would contact the sender of the email.  (It may be some bureaucrat has misunderstood the law.)

No. They understand the law perfectly. This scenario is actually spelled out by CBP in its online documents. 
 

Two or more compliant cruises can become non compliant when put together. It’s the passenger. 
 

See the top of page 14. https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/ICP Pax Vessel Services Act Apr 2010.pdf

Edited February 22, 2023 by markeb

[Arizona Wildcat]

9 hours ago, gerelmx said:

 

They need to disembark in Victoria instead of Seattle

You are not allowed to book part of a cruise.  Currently deviations are not allowed such as disembarking in Victoria instead of Vancouver.  No idea when this will retutn to the rules before Covid.

We used to take Pacific Coastal cruises and get off in Victoria. 

You can take Celebrity for one leg and another cruise line or different ship for the second.

I'm done.  It won't work.  Forget logic and reasoning.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Arizona Wildcat

[Cruise Junky]

1 hour ago, SusieAV8R said:

But wait a minute:  on B2B or B2B2B cruises, the ship must be zeroed out so ALL guests must disembark the ship.  Those doing these types of cruises disembark each time, go through customs and re-embark  the ship.  This will be done with each leg.  Something is not correct with the given scenario.  I would contact the sender of the email.  (It may be some bureaucrat has misunderstood the law.)

Irrelevant.  I believe it has to be 24 hours between sailings.   It is an illegal cruise and has been for decades.  

[Michael1965]

On 2/20/2023 at 10:35 PM, Michael1965 said:

So, Celebrity's "solution" does not actually solve the problem.  We will have to look at other options for the Alaska leg, maybe get off Edge in Vancouver, stay in the Pacific Northwest for a few days and pick up Edge in Seattle on May 17 or Solstice in Seattle on May 12, the day after we get off Edge in Vancouver.

Now the May 12, 2024 Solstice sailing is showing Vancouver to Vancouver, so that becomes a more attractive option, but Edge with the six days between is looking pretty good.

[ldubs]

On 2/20/2023 at 6:20 PM, NutsAboutGolf said:

Sorry for this as it must be disappointing,  Call and ask for compensation and maybe they'll throw ya an OBC or something

 

From google: "A distant foreign port is a port further than the nearby foreign ports. These ports must be outside of the Bahamas, Bermuda, Central America, North America and West Indies. The port of Bonaire, Curacao and the Netherland Antilles are, however, considered as distant foreign ports.
Currently, an exception is applied to Puerto Rico."

 

"A distant foreign port is a port further than the nearby foreign ports. "

 

So basically distant is further than near.   I love this quote.  Had to be from a gov't document.