Maleth confirms end of P&O partnership

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, jeanlyon said:

I really don't think this problem is down to P&O.  They have been let down by the airline they originally planned to use.  What are they supposed to do?

We don't actually know that.  What we know is P&O planned a series of cruises using a ship that carries 5,200 people whereas previously they used one with 3,100.  That ship came on line last year, did not sail a full winter Caribbean season and they still could not source enough flights for the number of passengers.   Any planning department worth it's salt should have been preparing for this year and probably next way in advance.  They will have known some considerable time back that TUI most likely didn't have the spare aircraft.

 

The questions really are how long have Ford Aviation taken to find someone with the required number of aircraft, should P&O have continued to sell PE if they were aware they were at risk of only being able to source single class aircraft and why they chose not to tell the travel and cruise agents  (even confidentially) what was happening before dropping their "bombshell".

Edited September 30, 2023 by Megabear2

[CarlaMarie]

Completely agree. P&O must have seen this coming, and surely the travel agents/industry would have as well or at least a strong inkling? 

[Eglesbrech]

33 minutes ago, CarlaMarie said:

Completely agree. P&O must have seen this coming, and surely the travel agents/industry would have as well or at least a strong inkling? 

Your observation and those of @Megabear2 are astute.

 

The only people we can  absolutely guarantee didn’t know about any potential issues are the paying customers: they are the people faced with a financial loss if they cancel and a less comfortable journey if they don’t.

[zap99]

6 minutes ago, Eglesbrech said:

Your observation and those of @Megabear2 are astute.

 

The only people we can  absolutely guarantee didn’t know about any potential issues are the paying customers: they are the people faced with a financial loss if they cancel and a less comfortable journey if they don’t.

I wonder how long before they chuck out some cruise only deals to the trade. They can then put together some decent packages.

 

[Bill Y]

9 hours ago, Presto2 said:

Am with you on this one as that's the only reason we booked and would be gutted if we found out we were not getting what we told we would have when booking. I suppose it is easier to be objective of it isn't you affected and for those who are is emotion clouding our judgement somewhat. Perhaps the truth of how PO should have handled it lies somewhere in the middle. We are all a little right !

Very true.

 

It will be interesting to hear of Thaumas’s endeavours with the subject access request, what’s the betting that that days recordings will have been lost/deleted by P&O’s IT department. The next hurdle will probably be that the booking agent was not authorised to accept any conditions the customer may impose on a booking, changes to contracts and T&C’s cannot be made by an agent etc unless written authorisation is obtained.

 

I note that it’s been worked out that it’s only a relatively small number compared to the numbers transported over the season that are effected by the two aircraft not having PE seating, So why not allow them to cancel. P&O appears to be worried that any mention of that would open the floodgates to everyone on these planes calming the right to cancel without penalty because they could not cope for eight hours without the entertainment that’s become customary on long haul flights in recent years. Some at P&O no doubt are thinking they should have kept their mouths shut and let the customers find out at the airport and just made an apology and said that they were still trying to source a better plane up until the end.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Bill Y

[snaefell]

P&O are not the only cruise company to change things after booking,others do it too,IMO more annoyingly they change the itineraries,it matters so much more when they remove the place or places that you were most interested in, without any chance of cancelling & getting your money back.

At least in this case with P&O you are still getting the cruise you wanted thanks to P&O sourcing extra aircraft.

[Cash123]

On 9/29/2023 at 3:20 PM, Megabear2 said:

This computer problem has been there since last Wednesday regardless of which airline.  I waited up all Friday night to book my friend on to her 30 December 2023 cruise (currently she is on Aurora so unable to do it herself) with absolutely no luck. Spoke to P&O on Saturday who advised to keep trying until Wednesday and then call again.  On Sunday I eventually got in on My P&O to see the Flights page but the seat selection was greyed out with availability after 14 weeks.  I left the screen open.  At 1.00am on Monday I got up to let the cat out and whilst waiting for him to return refreshed the flight screen. Surprisingly it opened with the green select seats button.  Going in I noted only 4 seats appeared to have been reserved but on picking s seat for my friend it reserved it and put it and the return in my bssked.  I paid and received a receipt. 

 

Reading of these continued problems I've just been back in. I am allowed to log in and get the flights screen.  It confirms the seat selection however it will not display the aircraft plan stating:

There are currently no seats available to be pre-purchased, please try again later.

 

I have the distinct impression I just was lucky. The social media pages are full of people on both airlines who cannot get access and once you're past the AI woman on the telephone they have a message stating they know there is a problem and wait times are currently in excess of an hour.

 

I can only suggest keep trying and if you get the flights page open keep trying.

Like others I tried to log on the system at midnight thursda, eventually got on to the seat selection page after 2 hours, I then found that the extra legroom seats showing up on seat guru for that plane were not showing as extra leg room on the P & O seat selection site, so in the end I selected whay seat guru said were extra leg room seats but only paid £45 PP but even that took another 2 hours for the transaction to go through, will see what we get when we get on board.

 

On our FB page a lot of people are saying they are not going to pre select due to the extra costs, if I had booked the extra leg room seats we would be looking at almost £400 for the 2 of us.

 

We did not get anywhere with P & O over their decision to move our 4 freinds over to Maleth even though it was a group booking, even though it showed we were all going on the TUI flight,  we are all disgusted by this and has certainly left a sour taste.

[Megabear2]

24 minutes ago, Cash123 said:

On our FB page a lot of people are saying they are not going to pre select due to the extra costs, if I had booked the extra leg room seats we would be looking at almost £400 for the 2 of us.

Forgive me for being thick here, seat selection on P&O is £45 each way per person so £180 for a couple.  We are talking TUI dreamliner here? The extra legroom seats are those at the bulkheads and emergency exits which have an extra charge - only used them once but I recall it was £100.  How much are they charging (even if you didn't pay it) for an extra legroom seat?

 

What is your flight number, in and out.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Megabear2

[Denarius]

14 hours ago, Bill Y said:

Very true.

 

It will be interesting to hear of Thaumas’s endeavours with the subject access request, what’s the betting that that days recordings will have been lost/deleted by P&O’s IT department. The next hurdle will probably be that the booking agent was not authorised to accept any conditions the customer may impose on a booking, changes to contracts and T&C’s cannot be made by an agent etc unless written authorisation is obtained.

 

I note that it’s been worked out that it’s only a relatively small number compared to the numbers transported over the season that are effected by the two aircraft not having PE seating, So why not allow them to cancel. P&O appears to be worried that any mention of that would open the floodgates to everyone on these planes calming the right to cancel without penalty because they could not cope for eight hours without the entertainment that’s become customary on long haul flights in recent years. Some at P&O no doubt are thinking they should have kept their mouths shut and let the customers find out at the airport and just made an apology and said that they were still trying to source a better plane up until the end.

Although I am not personally affected I have been following this thread with interest. IMO opinion your second paragraph hits the nail on the head.

It appears to me that there are two separate issues involved which are in danger of being confused. The absence of in flight entertainment and the absence of premium economy seating.

As regards in flight entertainment, whilst this is common nowadays it was not always so. And even today it is not offered by budget airlines like Ryanair, Jet2 and Easyjet. I cannot see anything in P&Os literature which says that it will be provided although past experience may have led many to believe that it would. I do not believe that its absence is a reasonable reason for cancellation without penalty.

Premium economy seating is IMO a different matter. Passengers paid extra for a facility which they were led to believe would be available, and made their booking on that basis. For some it was just a matter of personal preference, for others it was in their view a physical necessity. Whilst it may be debatable whether in legal terms a breach of contract has occured, in moral terms it undoubtedly has. As you say, only a relatively small number of passengers are affected by this and it would not have been unreasonable for P&O to give them the opportunity to cancel without penalty. Many would not have done so  - for them the absence would not have been seen as a deal breaker - but would appreciate having been given the opportunity. Those who did would have been dissappointed to have lost their holiday but gratefull that P&O had dealt with the issue sympathetically. As it is, P&O have had  a lot of bad publicity which could have easily been avoided.

[zap99]

10 minutes ago, Denarius said:

Although I am not personally affected I have been following this thread with interest. IMO opinion your second paragraph hits the nail on the head.

It appears to me that there are two separate issues involved which are in danger of being confused. The absence of in flight entertainment and the absence of premium economy seating.

As regards in flight entertainment, whilst this is common nowadays it was not always so. And even today it is not offered by budget airlines like Ryanair, Jet2 and Easyjet. I cannot see anything in P&Os literature which says that it will be provided although past experience may have led many to believe that it would. I do not believe that its absence is a reasonable reason for cancellation without penalty.

Premium economy seating is IMO a different matter. Passengers paid extra for a facility which they were led to believe would be available, and made their booking on that basis. For some it was just a matter of personal preference, for others it was in their view a physical necessity. Whilst it may be debatable whether in legal terms a breach of contract has occured, in moral terms it undoubtedly has. As you say, only a relatively small number of passengers are affected by this and it would not have been unreasonable for P&O to give them the opportunity to cancel without penalty. Many would not have done so  - for them the absence would not have been seen as a deal breaker - but would appreciate having been given the opportunity. Those who did would have been dissappointed to have lost their holiday but gratefull that P&O had dealt with the issue sympathetically. As it is, P&O have had  a lot of bad publicity which could have easily been avoided.

Absolutely. We flew to cap Verde with TUI on a 757 with no PE, but we selected extra legroom seats  during the booking process. We selected the seats that were acceptable and were aware that there would not be any inflight entertainment.

[Thaumas]

On 9/30/2023 at 10:46 AM, Megabear2 said:

As I said way back in this thread the real conundrum is not those individuals who are already booked but the effect this decision will have to future bookings, ie the cruises still on sale - and there's a lot of them.  Once the dust has settled on the bookings made P&O is clearly going to have customers having a crisis of confidence in them.

 

The sensible thing to do would be to put their hands up, say we are sorry for how we handled it both with the agents and those booked.  

 

I've just revisited the list of flights involved: there appear to be 40 in total.  If every PE seat has been booked on these flights (and I doubt that is the case) we are looking at 63 passengers per flight which means we have a maximum 2,520 people affected.   If each person has paid in full their £409 supplement, again doubtful, P&O have already committed to refund £1,030,680 due to not being able to offer this cabin.  Given that a large number of these 2,520 people won't have paid their balance we are looking at most being on a 10% deposit.  Using my own cruise as an example at a cost of £6378 plus £818 PE supplement (total £7196 for 2) we are looking at £719.60 deposit for PE customers and using £1,300 as the entry cost for a basic inside saver cabin plus £818 PE supplement (total £3418 for 2) we are looking at £341.80 deposit if they have PE.  This gives us an average of £530.70 deposit and we know that many of the deposits will not be 10% (my own is £300, Pastyfeet's was £200) but for this exercise we will work on 10%.

 

If every one of those 2,520 people were given back their deposits P&O refunds £1,337,364 in full to the PE passengers across the season.

 

We have therefore already refunded/awarded

 

£1,030,680 already refunded

£189,000 in OBC granted

 

If we allow free cancellation of PE passengers we can add at a rough estimate another £1,337,364 to those figures.

 

Faced with these losses which are at the least £1,219,680 adding a rough estimated further £1,337,364 to the loss is inevitably going to be fought.

 

What P&O now need to consider is whether the damage to their brand and the confidence of the future passenger and travel agents is worth this £1.3m or so.

 

Answers on a postcard ...

 

On 9/30/2023 at 10:46 AM, Megabear2 said:

Here’s my answer Megabear2:

The cost of this PR disaster to P & O is far higher than the cost of agreeing to full refunds to those affected. In my own case, we have done 11 P & O cruises and are Mediterranean tier Peninsular Club members. If P&O persist in their current approach, there is no way I will ever cruise with them again. If, however, they accept that they unilaterally made a significant change to my booking and agree to give me a full refund with an apology, then I might just use them again. In truth, however, we prefer Celebrity.

 

 

[Presto2]

8 hours ago, Denarius said:

Although I am not personally affected I have been following this thread with interest. IMO opinion your second paragraph hits the nail on the head.

It appears to me that there are two separate issues involved which are in danger of being confused. The absence of in flight entertainment and the absence of premium economy seating.

As regards in flight entertainment, whilst this is common nowadays it was not always so. And even today it is not offered by budget airlines like Ryanair, Jet2 and Easyjet. I cannot see anything in P&Os literature which says that it will be provided although past experience may have led many to believe that it would. I do not believe that its absence is a reasonable reason for cancellation without penalty.

Premium economy seating is IMO a different matter. Passengers paid extra for a facility which they were led to believe would be available, and made their booking on that basis. For some it was just a matter of personal preference, for others it was in their view a physical necessity. Whilst it may be debatable whether in legal terms a breach of contract has occured, in moral terms it undoubtedly has. As you say, only a relatively small number of passengers are affected by this and it would not have been unreasonable for P&O to give them the opportunity to cancel without penalty. Many would not have done so  - for them the absence would not have been seen as a deal breaker - but would appreciate having been given the opportunity. Those who did would have been dissappointed to have lost their holiday but gratefull that P&O had dealt with the issue sympathetically. As it is, P&O have had  a lot of bad publicity which could have easily been avoided.

About the best response I've read to this topic to date. Well thought through. Thanks

[Megabear2]

9 hours ago, Thaumas said:

 

 

Thank you for your explanation. I wish you good luck in your pursuit.

[Cash123]

13 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

Forgive me for being thick here, seat selection on P&O is £45 each way per person so £180 for a couple.  We are talking TUI dreamliner here? The extra legroom seats are those at the bulkheads and emergency exits which have an extra charge - only used them once but I recall it was £100.  How much are they charging (even if you didn't pay it) for an extra legroom seat?

 

What is your flight number, in and out.

Yes your right, I paid £180 for the 2 of us, but if I had gone for extra leg room them we would be looking at almost £400 which does seem ridiculously high, as I said I couldnt understand why on seat guru the rows of extra leg room seats were not showing up on the P & O seat plan but it was the same 787-9 plane.

 

Our flights are 26 out and 27 back

[Interestedcruisefan]

10 hours ago, Cash123 said:

Yes your right, I paid £180 for the 2 of us, but if I had gone for extra leg room them we would be looking at almost £400 which does seem ridiculously high, as I said I couldnt understand why on seat guru the rows of extra leg room seats were not showing up on the P & O seat plan but it was the same 787-9 plane.

 

Our flights are 26 out and 27 back

Seat selection is 45 per person both ways?

 

I didn't actually realise we had to pay to choose 2 seats? 

 

I missed doing it last time on Arvia by being disorganised ? Was too late. 

 

So it appears I saved myself 180 pounds by being dis-organised?

 

Unless I'm confusing myself here?

 

But we still got 2 seats together at check in.

 

That's cheered me up!!

 

Lol

Edited October 2, 2023 by Interestedcruisefan

[Megabear2]

51 minutes ago, Interestedcruisefan said:

Seat selection is 45 per person both ways?

 

I didn't actually realise we had to pay to choose 2 seats? 

 

I missed doing it last time on Arvia by being disorganised ? Was too late. 

 

So it appears I saved myself 180 pounds by being dis-organised?

 

Unless I'm confusing myself here?

 

But we still got 2 seats together at check in.

 

That's cheered me up!!

 

Lol

Yes, they charge.  The big rush for seats tends to be larger family groups and PE passengers.  With the 3 3 3 seating couples can generally book a window and middle or two aisle seats either side of the walk through.   There are also those securing extra legroom seats.  These also carry another charge on top of the £45.00 although I note Cash123 did not get charged.  With the TUI planes the "extra legroom" seats come with some problems.  The bulkhead seats in the middle row are not meant to be walked through but people constantly do which is annoying for the occupants.  The exit seats are narrow - 17" - with fixed arms.  They are also by the lavatories and quite large groups of people congregate there. Unlike on other airlines the crew do not make any effort to limit the number of people waiting and congregating at the lavatories.

 

The main advance bookers tend to be PE passengers.  The cabin is small and in a 2 3 2 layout.  There are 9 rows of seats so 18 with a pair rather than being split.  If you do not act early and pay the seat selection fee your chances of being seated together are greatly reduced. 

 

Here is TUI's fleet description for their dreamliner:

 

"Boeing 787 Dreamliner

You can fly direct to selected long-haul destinations on our 13 state-of-the-art Dreamliners, including eight 787-8s and five 787-9s. Each one has between 300 and 345 seats, inclusive of Premium and economy seating. Partially made up of composite materials, the Dreamliner features a General Electric GEnx-1B engine. Inside, you’ll find features like LED lighting and bigger windows with dimmer switches. If you want to see it for yourself, you can take a virtual tour."

Edited October 2, 2023 by Megabear2

[T101]

My wife and are sailing on Arvia out of Southampton on 27 October. I am too disappointed that we will not be flying back from Barbados on a TUI Dreamliner. I am 6’4” and have flown on the Dreamliner before which was always comfortable. The Maleth Aero planes only have a standard seat pitch of 30”, and I know I won’t fit. The flight booker was meant to be available at midnight on the 27 September, but almost a week later it is still not working. I have tried and tried to book a couple of the very few extra legroom seats (at an extra cost!) with absolutely no success.
No information, updates or help from P&O. The P&O telephone agents can’t provide any help or assistance. They can’t escalate our complaint or concerns, they can only meekly apologise for the companies shortcomings, which is of no help and hugely, hugely disappointing.

In the last week I have spent hours on phone calls (mainly on hold waiting 60mins+ for an agent), written emails and posted messages all to no avail. This is very much spoiling the lead-up to our holiday. We are not at all happy and not at all likely to want to cruise with P&O again. ☹️☹️☹️

[GINGERWILDCAT]

55 minutes ago, T101 said:

My wife and are sailing on Arvia out of Southampton on 27 October. I am too disappointed that we will not be flying back from Barbados on a TUI Dreamliner. I am 6’4” and have flown on the Dreamliner before which was always comfortable. The Maleth Aero planes only have a standard seat pitch of 30”, and I know I won’t fit. The flight booker was meant to be available at midnight on the 27 September, but almost a week later it is still not working. I have tried and tried to book a couple of the very few extra legroom seats (at an extra cost!) with absolutely no success.
No information, updates or help from P&O. The P&O telephone agents can’t provide any help or assistance. They can’t escalate our complaint or concerns, they can only meekly apologise for the companies shortcomings, which is of no help and hugely, hugely disappointing.

In the last week I have spent hours on phone calls (mainly on hold waiting 60mins+ for an agent), written emails and posted messages all to no avail. This is very much spoiling the lead-up to our holiday. We are not at all happy and not at all likely to want to cruise with P&O again. ☹️☹️☹️

I could have sworn I’d read that the distance between seats was 32/33”

[T101]

P&0 advise that the standard seat pitch is 32". However, the Maleth Aero web site for the two planes used by P&0 states that it is only 30".

 

[carlanthony24]

1 hour ago, T101 said:

P&0 advise that the standard seat pitch is 32". However, the Maleth Aero web site for the two planes used by P&0 states that it is only 30".

 

They can change it around. Two aircraft 9H-BFS, 9H-MFS seat pitch 30-33 so they will have to re adjust them this is coming from the plane specification pdf on the website.

Edited October 3, 2023 by carlanthony24

[T101]

🤞

[snaefell]

IME, there are Dreamliners which aren't so comfy,I'm not just talking about legroom either,just before Covid we flew out East with Etihad which involved two flights in each direction,at six & a half feet I found the legroom 'snug' but the biggest problem was the seats,quite the most uncomfortable airline seats we have ever experienced,thin plastic with hardly any padding,the age of the plane really doesn't always mean a better journey!😎

[TigerB]

Regarding seat selection with Maleth Aero:

 

Out of curiosity, and perhaps someone that has already selected their seats on the Maleth Aero planes can answer this; are they showing the bulkhead seats as 'extra legroom' seats, and allowing them to be purchased?  Or, are they blocked from advance booking; perhaps being held back for those with special needs, or with babies?

[Cumbrian1]

Just joined this forum...

 

We are booked on the P&O Arvia on its relocation cruise from Southampton (27 Oct) to Barbados (10 Nov) and fly back to Manchester on the 10th Nov on flight Maleth Aero 1975.

 

I had a look at Maleth Aero and found this...

 

https://www.maleth-aero.com/available-aircraft

 

I was invited by P&O to book our flight seats about a week ago and managed to do so this morning. The seating configuration offered is 2-4-2.  We booked 2 seats together immediately behind one of the  emergency doors for extra legroom ( had to tick the correct box to acknowledge we were fit to occupy them). This cost us £95 each  so £190 total. A lot of money but I'm 6'4", so splashed out. Any other seat would have cost £45 each or free if you wait to be allocated at check-in

 

From the seating plan I was offered to choose from, and looking at the seating configurations on the Maleth Aero website above, the only aircraft that matches is 9H-EFS.

 

Based on this assumption, the Cabin Configuration on this aircraft is showing that there are 12 Business Class seats with "In seat monitors" and 283 Economy Seats with "Wireless Streaming"(?).

 

The 12 Business Class seats were not available for booking at the time I booked ours this morning. That said, they were 'blocked' rather than booked.

 

I am assuming that, as the Arvia leaves Barbados for a Caribbean 14nt cruise on the 10th Nov, then 'our' aircraft will have been used to fly some of the passengers on this cruise to Barbados but from which Airport I don't know.

 

I also don't know if it's safe to assume that this aircraft will be one that P&O will be using for the remainder of the Winter Cruises.

 

If this thread is still running after our return, I shall post our experience of the flight.

 

 

 

 

[kevboy]

I was able to book seats today for Arvia k326 dec 22 to Barbados, They cost £90 return and seating configuration is 3-3-3. Interestingly, the seats at the front aircraft are blocked out and therefore unavailable for booking. I wonder why? these could possibly be premium quality seats. The displayed seating plan is also very confusing by indicating that some centre seats in the window sections are also not for booking. Can anyone throw any light on this ?

kev