Dogs

[Kay S]

43 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I am sure you are right that there may exist a few vigilantes but I think most of us would report only if we had an unprovoked encounter. 

Not to argue with you, but can you define an "unprovoked encounter"?  Like getting bit or licked?

[cccole]

47 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

I am sure you are right that there may exist a few vigilantes but I think most of us would report only if we had an unprovoked encounter. 

I agree.  I think most of us see a dog on a cruise ship and automatically assume it is a trained service animal and how nice that the owner has the ability to travel.  There have been several examples on this thread where someone questions whether the dog is indeed a service animal because of behavior...in the Lido, running into someone else's cabin.  Someone else has pointed out that there are all sizes of service animals and they can provide a huge variety of services for their owner(s).  Cherie 

Edited April 11 by cccole

[TRLD]

1 hour ago, cbr663 said:

Companies faced litigation often.  Larger companies face it so often that they have entire legal teams on staff.  It's the cost of doing business.  Companies decide all the time which legal challenges they will mediate and which challenges they will gladly take to court as they know that they are operating within the law.

 

Challenging a passenger whom you have valid reasons to believe is fraudulently presenting themselves as having a service animal when in fact they are travelling with a pet should be an easy challenge to win.  I accept that we are currently living in a woke society, but that doesn't negate the risk that is associated with allowing passengers to travel with pets.  The risk is that the pet may cause harm or injury to other passengers and leave the cruise line open to that litigation.

 

If in fact it a not a service animal yes. On the opposite a wrongful challenge is very easy for the person with the service animal to win and often very expensive for those that lose.

[TRLD]

9 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

Can you refer me to any cases, statutes or regulations on the matter, with specific reference to cruise ships? 

So that implies that you feel it would be just fine to follow them around to collect evidence.

 

As I understand it, when a ship is at sea, in international waters the laws of the country in which it is registered applies together with certain international treaties that apply specifically to marine vessels.

 

Easy to find laws in many of those countries dealing with stalking and harassment. 

[cccole]

7 minutes ago, TRLD said:

If in fact it a not a service animal yes. On the opposite a wrongful challenge is very easy for the person with the service animal to win and often very expensive for those that lose.

Yes, but companies who challenge a fraud are not going into a lengthy and expensive litigation unless that has been established.  Frauds assume that most companies will just pay to save money and they can making a good living from it.  This is not a problem unique to the cruise industry.   Cherie

Edited April 11 by cccole

[Wehwalt]

4 hours ago, TRLD said:

So that implies that you feel it would be just fine to follow them around to collect evidence.

 

As I understand it, when a ship is at sea, in international waters the laws of the country in which it is registered applies together with certain international treaties that apply specifically to marine vessels.

 

Easy to find laws in many of those countries dealing with stalking and harassment. 

Thanks, I think. I had hoped for something informed and informative when you claimed legal issues might be involved. I'm somewhat disappointed. As for your implications, those sounds like assumptions. We all know about assumptions.

[Kay S]

1 minute ago, Wehwalt said:

Thanks, I think. I had hoped for something informed and informative when you claimed legal issues might be involved. I'm somewhat disappointed.

As TRLD said, you are welcome to search the Internet for information on harassment and stalking.  I don't know, but I think if you were being harassed and stalked on a cruise ship, you would recognize it.  Stalking behavior is not limited to the dog police, of course.  You could be stalked and harassed for many reasons.  Your good looks perhaps? 

[Wehwalt]

4 hours ago, Kay S said:

As TRLD said, you are welcome to search the Internet for information on harassment and stalking.  I don't know, but I think if you were being harassed and stalked on a cruise ship, you would recognize it.  Stalking behavior is not limited to the dog police, of course.  You could be stalked and harassed for many reasons.  Your good looks perhaps? 

I also appreciate it very much, but I fear you generate more heat than light here. An illustration, I think, of how high emotions run on the issue. Thanks again.

[happywandering]

30 minutes ago, cccole said:

I agree.  I think most of us see a dog on a cruise ship and automatically assume it is a trained service animal and how nice that the owner has the ability to travel.  There have been several examples on this thread where someone questions whether the dog is indeed a service animal because of behavior...in the Lido, running into someone else's cabin.  Someone else has pointed out that there are all sizes of service animals and they can provide a huge variety of services for their owner(s).  Cherie 

trained service animal are the key words

 

[TRLD]

27 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

Thanks, I think. I had hoped for something informed and informative when you claimed legal issues might be involved. I'm somewhat disappointed. As for your implications, those sounds like assumptions. We all know about assumptions.

You seem to know all about them.

 

Next time you are on board ask an officer what they would think about someone following a passenger with a dog collecting "evidence"

 

Playing fake service dog vigilante.

 

Reporting an incident one just happens to witness is one thing searching out such to report is somewhat different.

Edited April 11 by TRLD

[TRLD]

1 hour ago, Mary229 said:

I am simply saying the extra step may put off the posers.  They try to game the system as long as it is easy 

Maybe, but if they are willing to lie about service dog status they are probably willing to jump through the veterinary hurdles.

[Wehwalt]

4 hours ago, TRLD said:

Next time you are on board ask an officer what they would think about someone following a passenger with a dog collecting "evidence"

Probably that it would be more sanitary for the crew to pick up the "evidence" and dispose of it ...

[simplyrubies]

7 hours ago, rwethereyet1969 said:

I am curious....We are cruising to AK on the K'd from Vancouver.  Does Vancouver, being a non-US based port, make it more likely or less likely to have non-service dogs "pets" on our cruise?

 

If I had to guess, I'd guess it's slightly less likely if most guests onboard aren't Canadian. Agree that the health requirements for bringing the dog into Canada, if most cruisers are non-Canadian, may put off some illegitimate folks. Anyone flying in, Canadian or not, also have to get their dog past that (but could still succeed) - but as previously stated, if they'll lie about a service dog they may lie about this too. 

 

In countries with very strict animal import laws and strict rules regarding service animals or pets in general (ex Japan) I'd guess the chance is much, much lower. The hurdles to pass are much higher, might even require someone to fake certain certification documents that may be required.

 

I've seen more stories and pictures about 'service dogs' on HAL than other lines. Not sure if it's confirmation bias, or maybe these folks specifically seeking out HAL, or something specific to how other cruise lines are handling this problem that HAL could maybe learn from. Illegitimate service dogs do a major, major  disservice to legitimate service dog teams and can cause additional onboard problems. 

 

[Khlela]

59 minutes ago, Wehwalt said:

legal issues might be involved.

Their comment was pretty clear. If you were to continually follow someone around a ship it absolutely can be considered harassment and the person being followed could try to pursue legal action if they wanted. If someone was following me, not matter the reason, I would feel scared and threatened and likely immediately go to cruise staff explaining it as such. I am certain the cruise ship would not side with the individual who is making assumptions and wanting to follow someone around. 
 

[Khlela]

Frankly, do people have nothing else to do on a cruise than stock people looking for evidence, exposing themselves even more to a dog they seem to have such a problem with. What a sad life to live if that is how someone feels they need to spend their vacation. 

I'm so happy I can enjoy my vacations while minding my own buisness. 

As someone with an invisible disability I can state that I have encountered MASSIVE amounts of harassment and judgment from people. Including demands that i have to prove to them why I need a handicap parking permit, or why someone who looks so young gets wheelchair accessibility assistance at airports. Because they think I'm healthy and just lazy. Do people abuse the permits? Absolutely, but I shouldn't be questioned and put through that trauma just because they feel nosey and entitled to police rules that have zero impact on them. 

Trying to create additional restrictions causes more harm to those who are legitimate than the ones abusing it and lying. The last thing we need is to make things even more difficult for those who are disabled. Life is hard enough already. Additionally, the cruiseline, at least if abiding by US or many EU rules can get in a HUGE amount of trouble if they demand anything further than just asking if it's a service dog and the task it performed. If they tried to ask anything else and it went to court there is a high chance they would lose due to breaking that law and opening them up for discrimination. 

So please, if they aren't directly bothering you. If they didn't pee on you, or bark, or do anything wrong, just let it go and enjoy your cruise. If for some reason it causes an actual negative impact or harm (beyond just not liking seeing the dog or feeling it's unfair) then report it! Otherwise just let it go. 

[TRLD]

23 minutes ago, simplyrubies said:

 

If I had to guess, I'd guess it's slightly less likely if most guests onboard aren't Canadian. Agree that the health requirements for bringing the dog into Canada, if most cruisers are non-Canadian, may put off some illegitimate folks. Anyone flying in, Canadian or not, also have to get their dog past that (but could still succeed) - but as previously stated, if they'll lie about a service dog they may lie about this too. 

 

In countries with very strict animal import laws and strict rules regarding service animals or pets in general (ex Japan) I'd guess the chance is much, much lower. The hurdles to pass are much higher, might even require someone to fake certain certification documents that may be required.

 

I've seen more stories and pictures about 'service dogs' on HAL than other lines. Not sure if it's confirmation bias, or maybe these folks specifically seeking out HAL, or something specific to how other cruise lines are handling this problem that HAL could maybe learn from. Illegitimate service dogs do a major, major  disservice to legitimate service dog teams and can cause additional onboard problems. 

 

We have sailed on 7 different lines last year. The numbers seem similar if one adjusts for demographics more per capita on ships with older demographics. Maybe 1 or 2 per 2 to 3000 size ship on lines like HAL or Princess at most. Especially on ships leaving and returning to the same port. Premium and luxury seem to have fewer. I suspect mostly because of the sizes of the ships.

 

Was on a ship with 5 once. A group of blind friends taking the same cruise.

Edited April 11 by TRLD

[Haljo1935]

1 hour ago, Kay S said:

Not to argue with you, but can you define an "unprovoked encounter"?  Like getting bit or licked?

Not @Mary229 

I classify opening my cabin door resulting in having an unleashed dog run into my cabin and bark at me as an "unprovoked encounter." 

Surely you don't suggest the mere act of a passenger opening their cabin door to be provocation?

[TRLD]

2 minutes ago, Haljo1935 said:

Not @Mary229 

I classify opening my cabin door resulting in having an unleashed dog run into my cabin and bark at me as an "unprovoked encounter." 

Surely you don't suggest the mere act of a passenger opening their cabin door to be provocation?

I would assume you called security with that incident. I certainly would have. 

 

In such a case I would be tempted to quickly exit the room locking the dog inside. Then proceed to call security from the closest phone to document the event

Edited April 11 by TRLD

[Kay S]

2 minutes ago, Haljo1935 said:

Not @Mary229 

I classify opening my cabin door resulting in having an unleashed dog run into my cabin and bark at me as an "unprovoked encounter." 

Surely you don't suggest the mere act of a passenger opening their cabin door to be provocation?

Oh how frightening!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kay S]

32 minutes ago, simplyrubies said:

 

 

 

I've seen more stories and pictures about 'service dogs' on HAL than other lines. 

 

Interesting...

[Haljo1935]

38 minutes ago, simplyrubies said:

...I've seen more stories and pictures about 'service dogs' on HAL than other lines. Not sure if it's confirmation bias, or maybe these folks specifically seeking out HAL, or something specific to how other cruise lines are handling this problem that HAL could maybe learn from. Illegitimate service dogs do a major, major  disservice to legitimate service dog teams and can cause additional onboard problems. 

 

Well said - thank you. Agree.

 

And one HAL ship seems to be particularly popular.  

[Haljo1935]

15 minutes ago, TRLD said:

I would assume you called security with that incident. I certainly would have.

Yes, I did.

[Haljo1935]

14 minutes ago, Kay S said:

Oh how frightening!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was.

[LSEA]

My dog would be miserable on a cruise ship.  Without the proper training true service dogs complete, I think many would be frightened and confused.  A coworker and his wife ordered fake service dog stuff from Amazon.  "We can take him to Ikea!"  My first thought was why the hell would your dog want to go to Ikea.

[PROCRUISE]

6 minutes ago, LSEA said:

My dog would be miserable on a cruise ship.  Without the proper training true service dogs complete, I think many would be frightened and confused.  A coworker and his wife ordered fake service dog stuff from Amazon.  "We can take him to Ikea!"  My first thought was why the hell would your dog want to go to Ikea.

Typical ENTITLEMENT!