Alaska Group 12 - The Lost 29 - Holland America (Combined Threads)

[serendipity1499]

David we were composing at the same time (I take much longer to type & correct my posts) Good thoughts & well said..:)

 

However, please don't compare HAL with other cruise lines which might be part of the Carnival conglomerate..Carnival does not dictate to HAL..They are a separate company & free to offer whatever compensation they want..

 

Betty

[BeBeReader]

The assumption that HAL will not agree to provide just compensation is based upon behavior to date. All that was offered was $500 in ship credit -- which doesn't amount to $500 real dollars. You could gamble that away very rapidly. Moreover, $500 doesn't begin to compensate the victims of HAL's negligent behavior. For some, this may have been the trip of a lifetime. In other words, as they say, "PRICELESS." The value of "priceless" is not $500 in ship credit.

[richwmn]

In NJ where I practice, HAL's lawyers would indeed have to appear. HAL would have to hire local counsel in NJ and they would be required to "appear," which means to file papers. These papers would cost thousands of dollars to file. They would include a brief and affidavit -- not so simple. HAL's lawyers might have to make a personal appearance in court on the return date of the motion -- it is likely they would be required to do so. What makes you so sure you know the result of the motion? Certain states, such as NJ, are very consumer friendly. Finally, there is no big deal to serve out of state. In NJ, we have long arm service by mail anywhere in the US.

 

BeBe -- In response, your first sentence is a simple repeat of mine. I said they would file papers, you said 'they would be required to "appear", which means to file papers' -- your words. How are these two different? If filing a brief and an affidavit would cost "thousands of dollars", our legal system is more flawed than I thought.

 

It is my impression that this type of administrative detail is handled regularly through paperwork without any "personal appearance" which you admitted HAL's lawyers "MIGHT" have to make.

 

What makes me so certain of the outcome? Two things. 1. Many "contracts", not just cruise contracts have such governing language, which from my reading is routinely upheld. If it were not, the contracts would omit the clause. 2. Look at post #53 (i think) where someone else mentions that these clauses are routinely upheld.

 

I agree that it is easy to serve papers out of state, I have acted as a process server for several out of state companies. I only mentioned it as an additional requirement for consideration.

 

As I said before IANAL! What is your status?

 

Heather -- sail (i believe) -- quoted the terms of the cruise contract around post #50

[Home at last]

There were many more than 29 people affected by all of this. The OPs ship was not the only one involved. A very conservative estimate of the number of paxs dumped in Fairbanks was 250!!!

 

A ship credit from HAL should not be acceptable. I know they want all of us to cruise again. But this has left such a bad taste in many mouths that we simply want nothing more to do with HAL (or any of the other cruise lines under the Carnival umbrella).

 

I was there. I don't want to cruise with them again.

[BeBeReader]

Rchwmn,

 

I congratulate you because I previously thought you might be a lawyer from the glibness of your previous post in this thread. However, now I know that you are not because you assume that all language in a contract will be upheld regardless of the circumstances. Yes, contracts are enforceable. But language can be stricken for various reasons. This is why all law students study the complex law of contracts. This is where the practice of law comes in. It is not as simple as you think it is.

 

I wanted to point out the way I think Stringreen should go with this in order to get prompt action. He can do this pro se, that is, without a lawer (WAL). Only trying to help someone who has been treated outrageously. :)

 

By the way, why the name "Rchwmn"? Are you Wmn or a Mn?

[sail7seas]

There were many more than 29 people affected by all of this. The OPs ship was not the only one involved. A very conservative estimate of the number of paxs dumped in Fairbanks was 250!!!

 

A ship credit from HAL should not be acceptable. I know they want all of us to cruise again. But this has left such a bad taste in many mouths that we simply want nothing more to do with HAL (or any of the other cruise lines under the Carnival umbrella).

 

I was there. I don't want to cruise with them again.

 

It sounds like it was a terrible experience and I am sorry for all of you who endured it.

 

If HAL knows they have lost you, why would they make any offer at all?

 

If the 'demand letter' says, I never want to sail with HAL again, logic says....Well, they're gone so no reason to try and make them happy now.

 

IF someone writes and states all the facts of what they endured and make a reasonable 'demand' and states......we'd really like to try HAL again, isn't there more incentive to try to make these folks happy?

 

A $500 shipboard credit does not sound like a good solution to me, though. JMHO.....

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Also to our attorneys here discussing potential litigation..... While HAL may be subjected to whatever legal bills (though they most assuredly have in-house/retained counsel)......

 

The Plaintiff is also running up legal bills.

While the clock ticks on billable hours to HAL, unless they represent themselves or their brother/sister ( or such) gives them free legal, the billable hour clock is ticking for Plaintiff as well.

 

In the scheme of things, these small suits are not particularly worrisome to HAL I wouldn't think.

[Copper10-8]

S7S, that last paragraph sounds like Mr. S7S climbed behind the PC;)

[richwmn]

Rchwmn,

 

I congratulate you because I previously thought you might be a lawyer from the glibness of your previous post in this thread. However, now I know that you are not because you assume that all language in a contract will be upheld regardless of the circumstances. Yes, contracts are enforceable. But language can be stricken for various reasons. This is why all law students study the complex law of contracts. This is where the practice of law comes in. It is not as simple as you think it is.

 

I wanted to point out the way I think Stringreen should go with this in order to get prompt action. He can do this pro se, that is, without a lawer (WAL). Only trying to help someone who has been treated outrageously. :)

 

By the way, why the name "Rchwmn"? Are you Wmn or a Mn?

 

In my first post on this subject I used the acromyn IANAL, just to insure no one made that association. In fact, you are wrong when you assume that I believe that all language in a contract is enforcable. That is why most contracts include a severability clause. I do feel that because of the number of contracts which include the "venue" clause, and not just cruise contracts, it will generally be upheld. You have not, however, addressed the general rule that a party has to be sued where it has a "presence", ie an office.

 

to your last, it refers to my last name.

[Bramcruiser]

Thanks for understanding the situation for what it is. I agree that you need to write those letters and think you did what any should do in a similar situation. Corporations just are not good at working through a melt down and there have been sufficient number of posts to suggest that this was exactly a melt down. I loved how you figured out how the lot of you should be looking out for each other as a group. Its probably what got you all through without it getting worse. Thanks for your story.

[sail7seas]

S7S, that last paragraph sounds like Mr. S7S climbed behind the PC;)

 

:) Nah, John........

 

I thought that one up all by myself. I guess it's contagious. ;)

[Copper10-8]

:) Nah, John........

 

I thought that one up all by myself. I guess it's contagious. ;)

 

Impressed the heck out of me;)

[HoneyGV]

HAL's lawyers would not have to appear before your court. They would file a response asking for change of venue based on the contract and chances are almost certain that it would be granted. You would then have to refile in Washington. In addition, even if you filed in your local court, you would have to serve the papers to HAL's designated representative which would be either in Seattle, or the state they or incorporated in (lots of corporations use Delaware).

 

If the plaintiff pursues a case because he doesn't get satisfaction from HAL, and if HAL's attorneys feel the plaintiff has a case, they will settle out of court.

I doubt it will get even that far. IMHO.

[BeBeReader]

Rchwmn,

 

I still don't get the thing about your name, but I will move on.

 

You are very impressive. You should be a lawyer. Seriously. I mentioned the personal jurisdiction issue in one of my first posts on this thread. This is a complex issue that would take some research, but my educated guess is that there would certainly be personal jurisdiction over HAL in Stingreen's state based upon advertising, etc. An actual office is not necessary. HAL has availed itself of Stingreen's home forum. You can research Supreme Court cases on this issue. Be my guest.

 

As to the poster who suggests that HAL could use in-house attorneys in court, this wouldn't work unless HAL has in-house attorneys in every state. Not likely. Even then, many in-house counsel do not go to court. They are corporate attorneys and not litigators. As far as legal costs to the plaintiff, I said very clearly that Stingreen should go pro se. Rchwmn knows that this means that he should represent himself, which would cost him nothing but his time and the cost of filing -- pretty minimal if the setting is is small claims court. The substantial expenditures would be for HAL to make, which is exactly why HAL would settle rather than litigate. That is the strategy here.

 

BeBe

[bdcbbq]

HAL's legal counsel doesn't care one whit about what is right or wrong. They have one job, and that is to protect the assets of the corporation. The rest is all fluff. For claims like this, they will advise to settle as cheap as possible and avoid going to court.

 

I'm betting corporate will provide most people with some sort of reasonable compensation. They just haven't had time to figure out what that is. The people who contact reasonably will get the best deal. Those who rant and rave will get the minimum and if they are a lost customer anyway, so what. The people who don't say anything will get little or nothing. But those who factually complain in a polite manner will get the best deal.

[richwmn]

Rchwmn,

 

I still don't get the thing about your name, but I will move on.

 

You are very impressive. You should be a lawyer. Seriously. I mentioned the personal jurisdiction issue in one of my first posts on this thread. This is a complex issue that would take some research, but my educated guess is that there would certainly be personal jurisdiction over HAL in Stingreen's state based upon advertising, etc. An actual office is not necessary. HAL has availed itself of Stingreen's home forum. You can research Supreme Court cases on this issue. Be my guest.

 

As to the poster who suggests that HAL could use in-house attorneys in court, this wouldn't work unless HAL has in-house attorneys in every state. Not likely. Even then, many in-house counsel do not go to court. They are corporate attorneys and not litigators. As far as legal costs to the plaintiff, I said very clearly that Stingreen should go pro se. Rchwmn knows that this means that he should represent himself, which would cost him nothing but his time and the cost of filing -- pretty minimal if the setting is is small claims court. The substantial expenditures would be for HAL to make, which is exactly why HAL would settle rather than litigate. That is the strategy here.

 

BeBe

 

Since this is a little OT at this point, if you wish, and I would enjoy it, we can continue with private email -- richwmn@gmail.com

 

Rich

[Bluejay2]

A quick response to Hammybee's further questions:

1) We know there were planes with empty seats from some of the airport people talking with us about all the confusion and expressing sympathy while we were all getting processed when we returned the next day for the flight we finally did take. As to who got to go and who didn't, or why some were kept as a group or not, I haven't the foggiest! I do think, as the days sorted out, the various tours were being kept together when possible, thus our remnant of Tour 12 continued to be kept together.

 

2)Yes, our overnights in the hotels were booked and covered by HAL. The meals were not all covered. There were a couple of breakfasts we missed because of the early morning transports. And there were some meals we covered on our own and some for which vouchers were provided. On the first day of all this, when we became separated from those who got on the plane, the hotel had a lunch buffet going for all the various stranded folk.

 

3)If it was money on my back? I'd want to reimburse the people for what they missed on my watch. I put it that way because there is the one point of the unexpected mudslide. But once HAL woke us for the alternate flight they claimed we were on, only to have us among the missing, it became their responsibility, their watch. The rest of Tour 12 had a full cruise. The 29 of us left did not.

 

Again, my thanks for the various suggestions from the experienced cruisers. They've been most helpful

Bluejay2

[hammybee]

With all due respect, we all feel bad for those whose Alaskan Tour/Cruise plans went astray. I thought this might lighten the load:

 

TOUR 12 Theme Song

 

Just sit right back and you’ll hear a tale,

a tale of a fateful trip,

That started from this frigid place

to board a HAL ship.

 

The mate was not a HAL man,

the skipper clueless and meek

Tour 12 set off that fateful day

For a 3 hour tour, a 3 hour tour…

 

The weather started getting rough,

Tour 12’s plans astray

 

If not for the courage of the fearless crew,

more luggage would have been lost, more luggage would have been lost.

 

Twenty-nine of Tour 12 , stuck on ground, of this uncharted place

With Gilligan, the Skipper too

The Millionaire, and his Wife,

The Movie Star, the Professor and Mary Ann,

here at Stranded Tour 12 Place

 

So this is a tale of our castaways,

they’re here for a long, long time.

They have to make the best of things

It’s an uphill climb.

 

The first mate and his skipper too

may not have done their best

to make their tour guests comfortable

in the Alaskan Wilderness

 

No luggage, no meds no rail cars

only a few bare necessities

Like a mealsy shipboard credit,

as ordinary as can be.

 

So join us here, each week my friend

You’re sure to get a smile

From 29 stranded castaways

Here on Tour Twelve isle.

[serendipity1499]

David my apologies..It was not you who compared Carnival to HAL but Pete Jackson..Pete the post to Bramcruiser was really to answer you..I think you are right..Hal should do much better than $500 & some meals & hotel for the loss to these Psgrs..

 

For some reason I've gotten peoples names all mixed up here & decide it's time to go to bed..It's been a long day..

 

Hope everyone has a good night..:) Betty

[RuthC]

(the sound of hands clapping) Bravo! Encore!

Nice work, hammybee. That was cute.

[Stringreen]

What things happen???? - Holland America screws up by loosing my name and almost 30 others? This costs thousands of dollars and untold hardship - We bought something and it wasn't produced. That to me is theft - or fraud - or something legal that shouldn't have happened. Boo to Holland America

[Stringreen]

Stressed? - I'm not stressed - I'm damaged - and so are the others on my tour 12. How you possibly could minimized the expended money, the bad planning, belittling is truly remarkable. I wish this to happen to you so you could experience what we went through.

[gipress2]

Everthing you are reading about the lost 29 is true as I am part of that group.

 

Weather was not the problem. Miss management and lying by Holland America caused 29 people to lose their dream vacation. It was our 26th anniversary. It is a sad thing that this company feels no compassion to their customers are the backbone to do the right thing by taking responseabilty for their actions.

 

How can they use the word America in their company name and not care about their customers is beyond me.

[gipress2]

Everthing you are reading about the lost 29 is true as I am part of that group.

 

Weather was not the problem. Miss management and lying by Holland America caused 29 people to lose their dream vacation. It was our 26th anniversary. It is a sad thing that this company feels no compassion to their customers are the backbone to do the right thing by taking responseabilty for their actions.

 

How can they use the word America in their company name and not care about their customers is beyond me.

[dforeigner]

The best way you can learn about any organization is when things go wrong, Mr. Murphy makes an appearance and/or the proverbial "droppings" hit the fan.

 

Ah, good old Mr. Murphy! He always shows up at the least convenient opportunity.

[happy cruzer]

It sounds like it was a terrible experience and I am sorry for all of you who endured it.

 

If HAL knows they have lost you, why would they make any offer at all?

 

If the 'demand letter' says, I never want to sail with HAL again, logic says....Well, they're gone so no reason to try and make them happy now.

 

IF someone writes and states all the facts of what they endured and make a reasonable 'demand' and states......we'd really like to try HAL again, isn't there more incentive to try to make these folks happy?

 

A $500 shipboard credit does not sound like a good solution to me, though. JMHO.....

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Also to our attorneys here discussing potential litigation..... While HAL may be subjected to whatever legal bills (though they most assuredly have in-house/retained counsel)......

 

The Plaintiff is also running up legal bills.

While the clock ticks on billable hours to HAL, unless they represent themselves or their brother/sister ( or such) gives them free legal, the billable hour clock is ticking for Plaintiff as well.

 

In the scheme of things, these small suits are not particularly worrisome to HAL I wouldn't think.

 

Sail you made good points. HAL will only come up with more for a goodwill settlement. If the OP is not offering to settle in good will and let the issue die with all forgotten and forgiven, I don't see much more coming than has already been given. Their contract lets them off the hook, I imagine they can CYA pretty good with the weather and probably most of the flights were booked in Alaska. So if the OP is not approaching them such that there is something in the situation to save, I agree they may just let time and money play this one out.