Alaska Group 12 - The Lost 29 - Holland America (Combined Threads)

[sail7seas]

A consumer with a complaint does not need to file where corporate headquarters of the corporation, here HAL, is located. HAL advertises on the internet. It contracted with Stringreen in the state where he lives, which is where he should file a complaint. I do not think that HAL will ignore a formal Complaint filed in a court of law. That is quite different from a complaining letter, which is easy to ignore.

 

BeBe Reader

 

I'm not an Attorney so can't be sure if this applies???

 

Quote from HAL contract we received as part of our document booklet:

 

 

"All disputes and matters whatsoever arising under, in connection with or incident to this contract, the cruise, the cruisetour, the HAL land trip or the HAL air package shall be litigated, if at all, in and before the United States District Court for the Western District of Washington at Seattle, or as to those lawsuits as to which the Federal Courts of the United States lack subject matter jurisdiction in the Courts of King County, State of Washington, USA, to the exclusion of all other courts."

 

 

 

Does that dictate Venue?

[richwmn]

I'm not an Attorney so can't be sure if this applies???

 

Quote from HAL contract we received as part of our document booklet:

 

 

"All disputes and matters whatsoever arising under, in connection with or incident to this contract, the cruise, the cruisetour, the HAL land trip or the HAL air package shall be litigated, if at all, in and before the United States District Court for the Western District of Washington at Seattle, or as to those lawsuits as to which the Federal Courts of the United States lack subject matter jurisdiction in the Courts of King County, State of Washington, USA, to the exclusion of all other courts."

 

 

 

Does that dictate Venue?

 

Yes -- that is the language I was referring to in my earlier post.

[hammybee]

All cruises and cruise tours are sold subject to the Terms and Conditions of the contract.These contracts are written to favor the carrier. HAL's contract is consistent with those of all major cruise lines.

 

Seattle is the venue.

 

I am not a lawyer. I do however, read contracts. The onus is on the passenger to prove that HAL was negligent or willfully at fault for the delay. Given the weather situation, this may be hard to do.

 

If this had been my vacation, I would pursue it with corporate instead of legal.

[BeBeReader]

Posters, you make some good points. However ......

 

I would bring the lawsuit anyway in my own state court and argue that it is a contract of adhesion. I don't know if the venue restriction would be upheld anyway in this instance. It depends upon the court and the judge. In any event, HAL would have to come in to defend the motion or judgment would be entered on default in favor of the claimant, here Stingreen. Before that, I wager HAL would settle up.

 

Also, on another point about the measure of damages. Half of the cruise was missed, but the most important sights were missed. Much more value than 1/2 was lost. There was a lot of aggravation and annoyance and seemingly bad faith. As a result, I would ask for the value of the entire trip.

 

BeBe

[BumperII]

Has anyone noticed that we are now fifty plus replies to the OP without further response from him/her? We used to call that ring and run. There is not one thing that happened here that will keep any of us from cruising again and again.:D

[cruiseco]

re: Venue for suits:

 

There's been a lot of rulings on this very issue. So far, the cruise lines have won most of them and the courts have upheld their claim that any lawsuits have to be filed in the venue that's listed in the contract.

 

But every once in a while a judge rules the other way, so like many things it really can depend on the mood of the judge who's handling the case.

[BeBeReader]

I'm thinking the OP is too busy to respond because he is writing a Complaint to be filed maybe tomorrow.:D

[richwmn]

HAL's lawyers would not have to appear before your court. They would file a response asking for change of venue based on the contract and chances are almost certain that it would be granted. You would then have to refile in Washington. In addition, even if you filed in your local court, you would have to serve the papers to HAL's designated representative which would be either in Seattle, or the state they or incorporated in (lots of corporations use Delaware).

[Bluejay2]

I'm one of those new posters who found this site in the aftermath of HAL's inability to respond well to its stranded land tours after the mudslide in Alaska. My husband and I were part of the 29 of Tour 12 (all cruise passengers on the Ryndam) who were forgotten in Fairbanks, when the rescue plan was to fly the whole tour out so we could still meet the ship. Some of us found ourselves left off the Alaska Airlines passenger list. Prior posts have spoken to the several following days of confusion and mishandling by HAL. My husband and I describe this vacation as a mixed bag. On the one hand we have wonderful memories of the remaining cruise days once we finally rejoined the ship. On the other hand, the stress and exhaustion of the lost days colored everything and meant my coming home with a cold like I've not had for years. And I hardly every get sick. And yes, we are putting together letters to send to HAL and are also consulting with our AAA TA and getting good help there. So here's an added dimension of all this that's worth putting out there for folks to think about.

 

It was our passenger group staying together that gave us all the strength and grace to advocate for ourselves with patience, courteousness, firmness, clarity, and humor. At first we didn't know who even made up our remnant, as we were scattered among the swirling mass of people. Our first eyeballing of the group as a whole was on the coach to Fairbanks back from the ill-fated trip to the airport. Then we quickly lost sight of one another in the new mob back in the hotel conference room. However, we found our way together and instinctively started to watch out for each other. When the realization came that we'd really been dropped from HAL consciousness, we made posters we began to hold up in front of the HAL staff whenever they entered the room. We exchanged room numbers and one person became a list-handler, helping us track one another. We wouldn't let any transport coaches leave for our next destination unless we were crystal clear we were all on board. Some of our folk needed medications no longer available to them as dosages ran out. Others acted as advocates with them to ensure their situation was solved. One family was travelling with a child. Others helped with child-friendly entertainment. One of us became the spokesperson for the group with HAL service people, keeping the pressure on and the clarity of what we needed from HAL front and center. When HAL tried to divide us up, suggesting they would call us individually in our rooms, we stationed part of us in a group near their desk while others covered our hotel room phones. What might have been an overwhelming and lonely situation for any of us in our small family or single unit became possible when we pulled together as a group. And we had clout to move things along perhaps even more quickly then might have happened, who knows. We are continuing to compare notes and help each other with these next steps. Thanks for the thoughts many of you are adding in as well.

[hammybee]

This post provided more clairty than the previous. Perhaps time has helped redcue some of the understandable emotional distress.

 

I am curious if the flight in question departed with empty seats or if those seats were already taken by others, perhaps the real reason why the names were not on the list? It seems to me that this may be a matter bad weather, too few seats and too many guests and no matter what, 29 were going to be left behind. I am sorry that you were one of them.

 

I am also curious about the flight availability between the one where your names were not on the list and the actual flight you and the other 28 guests were finally able to board. Were there any other scheduled departures? If so, were there seats available on those flights?

 

And lastly, I am curious about what you think HAL could have done differently that might have caused a different outcome under the circumstances.

[Old As Dirt Mom]

Wow, Bluejay, what an experience. :( Thanks for a very articulate, thoughtful, credible, and yet incredible, post. Kudos to all of you for sticking together. That you should even have had to resort to this type of defensive organization, on your vacation, for crying out loud, is awful to contemplate. There is some good advice being dispensed right now on a similar thread here on the HAL board, entitled, "Boo to Holland America Alaska", which you may have already read. PLEASE let us know the resolution of this situation, even if it doesn't materialize for quite a while. My sincere sympathies to you and the other passengers who went through this experience together.

 

Karin

[hammybee]

Thank you for the additional clairity. I just finished responding to Ajua's post.

 

It certainly sounds as though your advocay for each other made an otherwise unfortunate situation more bearable.

 

Would you mind taking a look at the questions I posed to Ajua and let us know your perspective. I am curious and understand your sense of loss of time and experience in Alaska.

 

Thank you.

[hammybee]

It's chilly and raining her in Chicagoland and I have, for the moment, nothing better to do, than run interference between the several active posts on this topic.

 

I think the OPs of this and related threads need to answer, to the best of their abilities, the questions I posed to Ajua a short while ago.

 

As for now, based upon the information available, the weather situation in Alaska seems to be the root of the problem. And no matter what, at least 29 guests of various cruise lines were going to be seriously inconvenienced and dissappointed.

[Copper10-8]

All cruises and cruise tours are sold subject to the Terms and Conditions of the contract.These contracts are written to favor the carrier. HAL's contract is consistent with those of all major cruise lines.

 

Seattle is the venue.

 

I am not a lawyer. I do however, read contracts. The onus is on the passenger to prove that HAL was negligent or willfully at fault for the delay. Given the weather situation, this may be hard to do.

 

If this had been my vacation, I would pursue it with corporate instead of legal.

 

I'm with you Hammy! Before jumping on the seemingly always popular lawsuit bandwagon full speed ahead, why not see what kind of mutually agreed upon solution you can get from contacting HAL corporate. You can always see the Judge later

[krewzin]

 

It appears as though you're fighting a losing battle with this board's HAL APOLOGISTS. ;)

 

-1

 

'Er...Losing battle?':confused: All I've read is a bunch of folks who've been quite supportive while being very sympathetic.

 

I see the glass as 'half full.'

 

:D

[HeatherInFlorida]

.............. that the cruise portion of his bad experience was a seven dayer, correct? He missed exactly one half of that cruise plus the entire land portion or am I misreading that?

 

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the cruise portion was a 3 or 4 day thing and he never got on the ship at all.

 

Beyond that, I'm keeping my mouth shut this time:) .

[Copper10-8]

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the cruise portion was a 3 or 4 day thing and he never got on the ship at all.

 

Beyond that, I'm keeping my mouth shut this tim

 

Looking at HAL's website, Tour #12 "Classic glacier discovery cruise tour to Denali National Park" is a 12-day tour (five days on land and a 7-day cruise)

[hammybee]

Based upon the postings from Ajua and Bluejay, it sounds like they might have missed half the cruise and HAL has given them $500 in form of credit for the days lost on board. I also think that HAL picked up the cost of interim lodging, during the delay.

 

And again, I think we can all appreciate what it must of have been like to be oneof the minimum of 29 people who had their vacation plans disrupted by weather in Alaska. I mean no disrespect when I say, it sure sucked to be them.

[Bluejay2]

Okay Hammybee, let's see if I can answer some of your questions about airflights. By the way, for further info on how the 29 of us dealt with all this, please see my post Passengers Stick Together. We actually have a great story to tell in that regard!

 

There was no way for any of us to know if there were empty seats on the first plane we were all supposed to be on, when it took off. However, some people were still making it on and some not, so I'm not sure that it was just a last section of us in line, for instance, that were dropped. It seemed more random than that. As to other airline flights, we did learn that four extra planes were brought in from Anchorage to help that day, and that they were, indeed, leaving with empty seats. It appeared to be far more of a computer or transcribing error than an error due to planes being overloaded. Also, if it were an overload problem, and there were immediate plans in place to get us out, therefore, on the next plane (of which there were several, as I just said), that certainly did not occur.

 

As to what HAL could have done better, here are several thoughts. For one, in order to track the different tour groups that were needing alternative travel arrangements, they could have asked that we each locate ourselves together in our group in different parts of the room, so that the HAL reps would know instantly who was still there and who had been helped. They had several extra reps available to them, and they could have assigned them particular groups to be a liason with, so that we, as one of the groups, and they, could have had more simple and clear communication flow. That way, perhaps, no group would have gotten lost to them the way ours did. They also could have been clear and upfront about what the real situation was. Instead, they dissembled, fudged, held out false hope. They could have been up front and said something like, "We're in a rotten, confusing situation that has disrupted everyone. We're working to get you out of here, but won't know anything for a couple of hours. Go, take a walk to see such and such museum and check back with us a x o'clock and we'll try to have something for you by then." and at least we would have been freed up to get a breath of fresh air, encouraged to make the best of things and see a bit of Fairbanks. Instead, we were not allowed to leave the conference room. When they decided to keep us overnight again, they could have said, "Go get dinner and some sleep, we'll be back in touch tomorrow" morning instead of saying, "Go to your rooms, we might call you at any time for a red eye flight." The truth is, they shut down the Holland America Desk later that night and didn't return to it until 6:00 a.m. Meanwhile, a number of us hardly slept at all waiting for them to call us at any time. A lot of it is simple public relations stuff, and some of it is just how to organize a roomful of various groupings so they can be dealt with logically, honestly and respectfully under difficult circumstances.

Bluejay2

[hammybee]

I am hanging onto every word of this and I did read your post, "Passengers Stick Together". And again, I appreciate your clairity. Can you humor a few more questions?

 

1) How do you know that some planes departed with empty seats? And for the sake of discussion, if they did, who determined it was better for the 29 to stay or go as a group, rather than "cherry pick" which passengers would get out of Dodge, so to speak?

 

Your assessment of things that HAL could have done differently seems logical and appropriate. To be held in suspence like this, must have made an already bad situation so much worse.

 

2) If I am understanding all the different threads on this topic, I have the perception that HAL may have given each group member or is it cabin, a $500 credit for the days missed onboard. I am assuming HAL paid for the interim hotel and food. Is this correct?

 

3) If you were HAL, and this moneky was on your back, what would you do right now?

[BeBeReader]

HAL's lawyers would not have to appear before your court. They would file a response asking for change of venue based on the contract and chances are almost certain that it would be granted. You would then have to refile in Washington. In addition, even if you filed in your local court, you would have to serve the papers to HAL's designated representative which would be either in Seattle, or the state they or incorporated in (lots of corporations use Delaware).

 

In NJ where I practice, HAL's lawyers would indeed have to appear. HAL would have to hire local counsel in NJ and they would be required to "appear," which means to file papers. These papers would cost thousands of dollars to file. They would include a brief and affidavit -- not so simple. HAL's lawyers might have to make a personal appearance in court on the return date of the motion -- it is likely they would be required to do so. What makes you so sure you know the result of the motion? Certain states, such as NJ, are very consumer friendly. Finally, there is no big deal to serve out of state. In NJ, we have long arm service by mail anywhere in the US.

[Pete Jackson]

The people running these tours are seasonal workers who may be getting paid little beyond getting the tour for free. Hence, they are likely not going to be able to handle a complex emergency like this, even if HAL corporate has been trying their best from Seattle.

 

Since the cruise line continuously saves money this way, the least they can do for the group of 29 is to give them a free 7-day Alaska cruise in the same cabin category with no date restriction! (After all, this was high season).

Or, alternatively, refund these pax half the cruise fare paid. Certainly, other Carnival lines, namely Cunard and Princess, have recently given passengers free replacement cruises when most of them have endured less inconvenience than these 29.

[Bramcruiser]

I'm sorry to hear it happen but the OP should be aware this topic has already been hashed on two other threads. I'm ashamed that two people instantly attacked the OP right off the bat and one actually accused the OP as being someone else posting under another guise. We have had this hashed out previously how the established instantly attack newcomers and I once again say we must open the lines of communications between all sides.

 

Agua, its obvious now that there was a breakdown of communications and customer service between HAL and its service providers and I think there was a nightmare for anyone caught in it all. That has been established. This is not typical of HAL though. I agree HAL can screw up so won't eagerly defend them as they walk on water - they only sail on it. So, maybe the best thing is to write to HAL's head office in a strongly worded letter. Letters do far much better than any phone call.

 

Good luck. And don't feel wrong for posting here either. Some of us just want to guide you in the proper direction.

 

David

[serendipity1499]

Considering more than ONE individual suffered through this experience, I think it's a bit harsh to accuse the OP of being deceptive.

 

This is a prime example of how HAL apologists/loyalists intimidate new CC members. Shame on you. :(

 

I second that Nanette and Harsh is not the word for it..It's Shameful!...

 

I guess you could call me a HAL Loyalist as we will have our 100 days on HAL in a couple of months....However, I'm sometimes ashamed of the way some new people are treated on this board! Ok flame me if you will... We love the HAL service on board & have never had a problem, but let's face it sometimes problems happen & it's no fun for the person who is of the receiving end!.

 

johnlcruise.. Agree this is no way to treat a New Poster.:mad: .I've been on this board for many years & I don't know if it's the same poster, so tell me how can you be so sure..And if you are so positive it's the same person why don't you report it to the Host as we are told to do instead of making nasty accusations!:mad: They can handle it better than any of us..Follow the CC rules!

 

Lets face it there were 29 people involved in this fiasco..Don't you think, if a few of the 29 people knew about this board they would be sure to tell others..Many more of them might eventually post? Or do you think they were in their own little worlds whiling away the time in the "Gold Room" of the Hotel filled with hundreds of people..

 

I've been in the Travel field for a long time & know what can happen if in-experienced agents are trying to handle hundreds of stranded passengers.. Where were all the Supervisors? I don't know the answer but if this happened to me I would be rip-roaring mad & might also post the same thing..

 

Agua..Hope you will receive some positive thoughts & suggestions from this board..For one thing I suggest writing the CEO a clear, concise, non-emotional letter with just the facts..Try to keep it at one page, although know it's often hard to do..Tell him what you expect HAL to do in the way of compensation for your lost days....Keep in mind that you did receive $500 OBC, but if you don't feel that was enough tell him what you think is fair..

 

Please don't think we are all like this...Most of the posters on this board welcome new posters..It's really is not going to be very helpful to you by re-hashing this here unless others can come up with better non-accusatory suggestions..

 

Good luck..Betty

[HeatherInFlorida]

John, I misunderstood the post then. I just took the post at face value and never take the time to check HAL's website. The way he spoke, I thought he'd missed everything.:o

 

BeBe, could be wrong about this too (but I don't think so). This situation came up before here and if I'm not mistaken it's in the cruise contract that any lawsuits have to be filed and litagation take place in Seattle. If I remember correctly, someone actually posted the wording from the contract.

 

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong;) .

 

And why is everyone so quick to jump to lawsuits? This hasn't even been taken up directly with HAL's corporate office yet. How can anyone take the leap of assuming they won't do well by these people?