OPEN LETTER to Mr Stein Kruse, CEO, HAL concerning recent changes in policies

[knitlady037]

Are we going to eliminate the peanuts, on the chance that someone w/ a nut allergy happens .

If a person with a peanut allergy walks into a bar, they know enough to stay away from the nut bowl. A person that is sensitive to smoke does not have that option. The air circulation on the ships is very poor to begin with. When I sailed on the Noordam 2 years ago smoking was restricted in the casino but allowed in the sports bar. By the time I walked to to casino, I was gasping from the smoke that drifted out. My trip on the Zuiderdam recently was totally different. Smoking was everywhere except showrooms and dining areas. It was awful. The smoking policy was not enforced at all. Certain nights in the casino were posted as non smoking, but the nicotine junkies ignored that and ruined the enjoyment for other people because of their addiction. Nicotine is a drug, just as addictive as most other drugs. Would you have the same reaction if someone from a country that allowed marijuana lit up next to you?

[Copper10-8]

What is the source of your information ?

 

Personal experience as well as access to that type of data

[world~citizen]

...Nicotine is a drug, just as addictive as most other drugs. Would you have the same reaction if someone from a country that allowed marijuana lit up next to you?

 

Actually, cigarettes are the perfect consumer product.

 

They cost pennies to make, they are single use and they are addictive. :D

[YHZcruiser]

Flip side of the coin: can HAL afford not to listen to the much larger group of non-smokers?

 

In New York City they painted a gloomy picture for bars and restaurants when smoking was banned in public places. Well, that doomsday scenario did not happen.

 

I agree with your flip side of the coin, Boytjie. As for the New York doomsday scenario expected, the exact same thing happened in Nova Scotia and in many other Canadian provinces. I must say it is such a pleasure now to go to restaurants and other public places and get a clean environment. In Halifax at least, I think there is even an increase in the number of people going out to restaurants, and no closures, at least none that can be link to non-smoking policies. Not sure about the bars. I think there is still smoking allowed after 9 p.m., or something like that, but I am not sure.

 

Azamara allows smoking in two spots on their ships (small corner of the Looking Glass lounge and one corner on the pool deck). Rest of the ship is clean and most enjoyable. I might be sailing again with them in August. Incredible itinerary around Italy. Might not be able to resist!

 

As for HAL, I am sailing on the Westerdam in April and look forward to my experience. Hopefully, it will be a good one and a not too smokey one.

 

I certainly understand the predicament of smokers, for having been one myself many years ago. And I can assure you that I LOVED every one of those cigarettes -- with my drinks, my coffee, after the meals. However, I had to make a choice at some point and I chose to quit smoking. Money saved there is now invested in travel and wine... What can I say! But as someone said earlier, the times are changing and smoking will be more and more limited. We all have to deal with it.

[knitlady037]

In reply to as to whether smokers or nonsmokers use extra time at work. My daughter works in Supreme Court in New York City. All day she noticed a few people gather every few hours and walk outside (in addition to their regular break time) to have a cigarette. She asked the supervisor if she could go out and stand with them everytime they took their extra break and was told no. She then asked one of the Judges, and he said that if they were allowed this extra time, she had every right to go with them, and if the supervisor had a problem with it to see him. There was no "official" ruling. Thank goodness it didn't have to go that far. My daughter was up for that battle.

[Copper10-8]

.................. Would you have the same reaction if someone from a country that allowed marijuana lit up next to you?

 

You mean kinda like a live concert at any outside venue here in the good ole' USA?

[pipedreams62]

You mean kinda like a live concert at any outside venue here in the good ole' USA?

 

 

Good Old fashion crowd surfing?

 

 

[Sleepladypalmdesert]

I would suspect that a no smoking policy in cabins will be coming. The estimated cost of cleaning the cabin of odors after smoking is estimated to be 250.00. Not to mention the extra work of the staff. If the room is so bad that it cannot be used on the following cruise it would cost even more. Many hotels have started charging extra for smoking in the rooms. That being said, smoking on a balcony may be stinky to some others but it is transient and can be avoided. My recommendation would be to have some cabins set aside as non-smoking only. Maybe all port side cabins smoke free and can be booked due to health reasons, sort of like the handicapped cabins. Aft cabins can be for smokers. I do not smoke and would enjoy the aft cabins....but would need to adjust if I did not want to smell the smoke. Likewise, a smoker who enjoys smoking in their cabin would need to either book a smoking cabin or adjust if they chose a non-smoking cabin.

 

As far as public places. There does need to be plenty of space set aside for smokers. Should have space for them to have access and a place to congregate. There should be a bar that is clearly a smoking bar. The area on the Lido aft, (Seaview pool/bar) to me is perfect. On my last cruise there were always a number of folks out there smoking and drinking.

[Copper10-8]

Good Old fashion crowd surfing?

 

 

 

Meet ya at the mosh pit?

[nitnyleo]

In reply to as to whether smokers or nonsmokers use extra time at work. My daughter works in Supreme Court in New York City. All day she noticed a few people gather every few hours and walk outside (in addition to their regular break time) to have a cigarette. She asked the supervisor if she could go out and stand with them everytime they took their extra break and was told no. She then asked one of the Judges, and he said that if they were allowed this extra time, she had every right to go with them, and if the supervisor had a problem with it to see him. There was no "official" ruling. Thank goodness it didn't have to go that far. My daughter was up for that battle.

 

I object...the testimony is hearsay and should stricken.

 

PS: It sounds like your daughter spends alot of her time monitoring other peoples behavior. . . is that her job? Or is she the one that gets to time-stamp documents all day long?

[hal lover]

I sure hope that Mr. Kruse reads your letter! I agree with you Jim.

 

In December I was on the Maasdam. I too stop in for a drink before dinner and a cigarette. The Ocean Bar has a total of three tables in the smoking section and about nine bar stools. The rest of the bar is all non smoking. Sure enough at one of the smoking area tables sat three rather large "twinkies". To be honest, I thought about not smoking because it was obvious they were not smokers, but then I thought, hey they can move. Sure enough they did but not before making comments about the smoke. I did comment back that if you don't smoke then you should not sit in ths area. They were beside themselves that I told them that.

 

If HAL does away with not being able to smoke in your stateroom, like a few other cruiselines have done, then my cruising days with my beloved HAL will come an end.

 

It's a real shame that non smoker's can not be happy with ALL of the spaces onboard that are non smoking.

 

Flame me if you will, but this is my opinion.

[pipedreams62]

Meet ya at the mosh pit?

 

 

[nitnyleo]

. . .The estimated cost of cleaning the cabin of odors after smoking is estimated to be 250.00. Not to mention the extra work of the staff. . .

.

 

Estimates can be high . . . the actual cost is about $2.00 (including the extra labor of the staff).

[happycat Bainbridge Is]

A couple of people have said it, but no one has responded to acknowledge that it isn't as simple as not judging smokers or being a polite smoker: the Surgeon General reports that scientific evidence indicates that there is "no risk-free level of exposure to secondhand smoke." If people get hammered at the bar they're not doing MY liver any harm, but the same can not be said of exposure to their cigarette smoke.

 

I'm sure HAL is responding to consumer demand not health concerns or fear of legal liability (yet - although that may be coming down the road if employees are required as part of their work to be exposed to an known carcinogen - and the EPA classifies second-hand smoke as such).

 

Even if you disagree with the Surgeon General and the EPA, AMA etc. others don't, so having a "few tables" for smokers doesn't work because the second-hand smoke isn't contained. And just because some fresh air is mixed in with it doesn't entirely mitigate the effect.

 

Before you get the flame-throwers out ... the fact remains that there are good customers who do smoke, so why not invest some money in setting up a state of the art, positive pressure, HEPA filtered lounge onboard, somewhere that isn't a thoroughfare (like the casino is). Maybe it's time to divide the casino up and have a similar system for smokers in part of it. Even years ago there was a smokers' lounge like that in the otherwise smoke free Amsterdam airport.

 

I know it's limiting but if I were a smoker I would be getting seriously prepared for more limits on ships - that has been the steady trend in both public policy and business decision-making onboard and elsewhere, and not without reason. With all due respect the revenue argument doesn't hold water - bars and restaurants predicted losses in each municipality that went smoke-free but in fact, most smokers adjusted and non-smokers more than made up for the few who stayed home.

 

If I were HAL I'd be looking for a compromise that both allows and contains smoking in limited public venues and I would designate some cabins on one side of the ship as smoking and have one side entirely non-smoking. There has to be a way to accommodate us all. HCBI

[GPoll189]

Can I please get my Soap Box Out!!!!!!

 

WAY TO GO HOLLAND AMERICA!!!! You listened to your survey!!!

 

First of all, During this whole thread no one mentioned what the new policy is. Second, there was a smoking survey given out on my last two cruises asking smoking questions. (ie, would you stop cruising HAL if it was non - smoking) If I remember correctly there were like four question on it. Third I love how the smokers think that they should the non - smokers about their habit and we have to support it.

 

The surgeon general would not make the major tabacco company put a warning on the cigarette boxes if these things were not dangerous. It is a fact, this is coming from my medical background that smoking will decrease your overall life by 20 years on average.

 

Smoking is an addiction, it is extremely hard to stop and I will give that to the smokers. So where do you stop the smoking you stop it with the children/teenagers, who are great imitators of adults. Where do teenagers go, they go to club/bars and that is where this all started. Take that right way and they will see what it can do. I can't believe that people can't see that if you are a smoker you are at higher risk to get chronic bronchitis, upper respiratory infections, and the worst is cancer. Children at age 1 month are getting asthma when either of their parents is smoking. Increased ear infections, decreased birth weight, can you see smokers that it is no just you that this hurts.

 

I agree that their are the curtious smokers who care about the public, but then you have the others who blow smoke into the dealers faces, bartenders, waiters, bus boys. Does this increase sickness to these crew members diffenitely. Increase sick pay yes, increase down time yes.

 

Over time the US will become less and less attached to smoking, if you want to talk about economics, Smokers you have to lay out $8.50 for a cartoon of cigarettes. I love how smokers complain on how much it cost, the government is given you way out. Even some places NYC have a help line to get you to quit. Make the Earth better to live and increase your life by stopping to smoke.

[nitnyleo]

. . .If HAL does away with not being able to smoke in your stateroom, like a few other cruiselines have done, then my cruising days with my beloved HAL will come an end.

 

It's a real shame that non smoker's can not be happy with ALL of the spaces onboard that are non smoking.

 

And, my HAL cruising days will never begin . . .

[lettienets]

I don't find this logical. So a smoker cancels a suite - big deal - it's purchased by a non-smoker. No loss of income. So a smoker doesn't buy a drink - big deal - a non-smoker now has a place to sit at the bar and buy a drink. No loss of income. So a smoker doesn't gamble - big deal......

You get the idea.

In business terms, this is it. What else needs to be said?

[marle7]

I don't find this logical. So a smoker cancels a suite - big deal - it's purchased by a non-smoker. No loss of income. So a smoker doesn't buy a drink - big deal - a non-smoker now has a place to sit at the bar and buy a drink. No loss of income. So a smoker doesn't gamble - big deal......

 

You get the idea.

 

 

I guess it will depend on whether your on board tab is as high as mine. If so, net net, and HAL neither wins nor loses. If it's not, and there happen to be several large spenders like us, then HAL loses in the long run.

 

I personally don't care. HAL can do whatever it likes, it's their ball. I just don't have to play. Like Jim, I choose to vote with my wallet.

[world~citizen]

...It's a real shame that non smoker's can not be happy with ALL of the spaces onboard that are non smoking.

 

Flame me if you will, but this is my opinion.

 

No flame from me.

 

What about the health issue of secondary smoke, particularly as affects the serving staff?

 

Smooth sailing to you...

[knitlady037]

I object...the testimony is hearsay and should stricken.

 

PS: It sounds like your daughter spends alot of her time monitoring other peoples behavior. . . is that her job? Or is she the one that gets to time-stamp documents all day long?

You don't have to spend alot of time monitoring other people's time when they walk right past you desk and out the door and your left alone to hear the complaints of the people waiting for help. Her job and theirs is to do the job they are paid to do and not fuel their addictions while getting paid for not having any self control. Smoking is a dirty unhealthy habit. If you want to contaminate your own home, fine. There was a new report just out last week about third hand smoke. This one tested babies that were not subjected to second hand smoke, but were held by their parents after they had smoked. Carcinogens were found in the blood of babies as young as six weeks old. So to everyone that smokes--go ahead and give everyone you love a big hug and some cancer to go along with it. You can flame me all you want. I just lost someone special to cancer. He smoked and died regretting it.

[DizzyDallasDi]

. . . if you want to talk about economics, Smokers you have to lay out $8.50 for a cartoon of cigarettes.

 

Please tell me where I can buy a carton of cigs for only $8.50 !?!?!

[marle7]

No flame from me.

 

What about the health issue of secondary smoke, particularly as affects the serving staff?

 

Smooth sailing to you...

 

Are you aware that on most cruise lines, approximately 80% of the crew smokes?

[wilsonqbc]

The policy 2 weeks ago on E-dam was NO cigars, what so ever inside only on aft deck. The best solution is designated areas, with proper ventilation,

so it doesnt wander through out the ship.

But if I am allowed to smoke in an area, that is my only sanctuary,

so leave the smokers alone!!!!!!!!

 

Breathing N.Y or L.A. smog is bad for you also, someone should also fix that too.

[marle7]

Please tell me where I can buy a carton of cigs for only $8.50 !?!?!

 

On board. :D:D

[usha]

Unbelievable! HAL still has one of the most permissive smoking policies of any cruise line, and some smokers are ready to stop cruising? Are we to believe that, given the choice, some would actually pick SMOKING over cruising? ...Nuts, absolutely nuts!:eek: