OPEN LETTER to Mr Stein Kruse, CEO, HAL concerning recent changes in policies

[usha]

I've never seen any evidence to suggest that smokers have fatter wallets than non-smokers.

 

Marc

Are you suggesting that it's possible that non-smokers can be big spenders, too?

What a concept!:cool:

[PirateShark]

And isn't it a fact non-smokers have a tendency not to drink? And I can't tell you how many folks I've meet in the casino who consider themselves non-smokers that bum cigarettes as they gamble.

 

Well....I'm a non-smoker and I'll match MY bar tab up against any smoker I know or yours :D So no, I don't believe that's a fact. My non-smoking brother in law will also challenge you too. (this IS in good fun of course)

 

Jim, I want to commend you on a very eloquent and respectful letter. As a committed non-smoker with a DH with severe asthma, I am hoping that they keep the current policy with two caveats: 1) ban smoking inside cabins and enforce the non-smoking casino nights.

 

And no, we won't "bum" a cigarette when we gamble:)

[Taxguy77]

And smokers see no point in paying for a Veranda if you can't smoke on it. Why not just save the extra $1,000pp (on the S/R class) and get an Outside stateroom?

 

That's what I did on my HAL TA since TA's only are in port a little bit and often too windy at sea. Saved enough to cover the bar and some of the casino.:cool:

Liked the two pool decks, a moving roof when cold and all outdoor when warm. Didn't have any problems with smoke outdoors and in the casino. Only when the only table in the observation lounge was next to the very small smoking area.

[Copper10-8]

Are we all getting anywhere yet?:confused: I mean, just checkin' Are we having fun yet?

Fast moving bad boy, though!:eek:

[LAFFNVEGAS]

First going back to the original post my Jim I just want to say to Jim that is well written and not the least bit nasty which I am sure HAL has had their share of and will appreciate getting a letter from you with your view. Actually knowing Jim's humor I definitely caught some of that by reading between the lines :D

Both Tom and I are a non smoker and basically always have been except for maybe an occasional one we each tried when we were in our late teens. I am sure I never smoked a whole pack in my whole life.

I just want to make some comments about living in Las Vegas aka Sin City since 1978. It has been a proven fact that smokers spend far more money in gambling and drinking. There has been casinos that tried going totally smoke free and failed (not that many are not now failing:rolleyes:) The questions has now been brought up that now that the numbers of smokers has dwindled and IF they eliminated smoking would those that do not smoke return to the casinos and spend the money. Right now in these economic times the casinos are not willing to gamble on that so many do have the air filtration systems that do work quite well. This is all probably a wise choice given that Tom and I being non-smokers also do not gamble a penny. But we do enjoy an occasional drink out with dinner.

If you think this thread has plenty of interesting posts you should hear what is being said in Las Vegas. Right now the State of Nevada is trying to add on what they are calling a "Sin Tax" where drinks and cigarettes will be highly taxed. Not sure of the amount on drinks but it will not be nearly as much as the $1.00 they want to impose per pack of cigarettes. So trust me there are many screaming.

Now back to HAL and cruise lines... This is probably a difficult choice they need to make and one that could get costly to them by loss of revenue what ever they chose. While yes numbers of smokers are dwindling and second hand smoke is extremely dangerous, there is still a higher percentage of smokers on any given ship than in land base resorts, your work place or town. If you eliminate smoking where smokers do spend their money how much of a loss of revenue will they have. I am sure that is what HAL is currently testing. The question is those that do NOT smoke if the ship went smoke free would you spend more gambling in the casino and drinking in the bars? I know we would not.

Now I would love for the world to be smoke free but I also do not want for HAL to have to raise the price of drinks drastically to cover the loss of income they are not getting in the casinos or worse yet drastically raise the price of the cruise. In these economic times every business is looking very carefully on who and what is bringing in the revenue. It is truly a balancing act. While we may find that 85% of this board want a smoke free HAL ship, we may also find that the 15% spend far more on board in gambling, drinking and even the purchase of cigarettes. So it is HAL that has to make the decision as to what keeps them floating..... the income from smokers or non-screaming non-complaining passengers about the smokers.

 

[Spanky My]

How much money does HAL and other cruise lines LOSE from having to CLEAN smoke related furniture,drapes,bedding,carpets,etc ? It is not just what may or may not be lost in the casino or drinks to factor in here from smokers which no clear eveidence has been provided. But what costs incurred from the damage to the ship and its contents and the inconvience of other passengers. So smokers not only are raising the cost of cruises from their habit ,they are creating a health issue with others. Just one persons opinion who was not going to join the fray,but have heard enough grandstanding by smokers whining about nonsmokers whining...

[daveS007]

We are going on our first cruise in a week, HAL Zuiderdam, I can tolerate some smoking/specified area's etc... but if it is the major issue that this thread is indicating I will guarantee it will be our last and we are so looking forward to adding Cruise's to our vacation plans. We have paid $5K and haven't gotten on the boat yet. I have a feeling there are many new cruisers out there getting there first experience who are in the nonsmoking category considering the trend these days who, like us, will not tolerate a bunch of smoke. JMO.

[lettienets]

..... So it is HAL that has to make the decision as to what keeps them floating..... the income from smokers or non-screaming non-complaining passengers about the smokers.

 

How many land based restaurants/bars/dance clubs do you know of that went belly up when smoking was no longer allowed? Didn't happen here in Ontario.

I can't believe that the revenue from 15% of the smoking passengers is so much greater than non smokers would spend if they can breathe and have a dance and drinks in the Ocean Bar in peace and enjoy the other healthier amenities onboard which bring in money too. Even with the outrageous prices in the spa area people are in there all day. Paying for treatments, thermal suite, thalasso pool and other things, pilates, yoga, fitness etc It really bugged me on the Noordam in Jan that the dance floor in the Ocean Bar was on the smoking side. I felt sorry for the bartenders over there too and the band. It stunk.

[world~citizen]

...OF course not. I'm just saying that I don't think that the defence of the health of a crew that smokes anyway is a particularly good defence.

 

Well, occupational health and safety? Its the law in some countries - more and more actually. :)

 

Smooth sailing to you...

[world~citizen]

Are we all getting anywhere yet?:confused: I mean, just checkin' Are we having fun yet?

Fast moving bad boy, though!:eek:

 

What HAL is doing is not about fun, its about serving and protecting. :D

 

Smooth sailing...

[JimVrhovac]

When we were on the Oosterdam in Feb 2009 we found out about this new policy. I talked with the Guest Relations Manager and she researched the subject for us and then told us that this new non smoking policy in the Oceans bar came down from corporate.

 

Ruth & Jim

[LAFFNVEGAS]

How much money does HAL and other cruise lines LOSE from having to CLEAN smoke related furniture,drapes,bedding,carpets,etc ?

 

This would be a answer that only HAL or the cruise lines could answer. My guess is not as much as revenue over all that could be lost from losing smokers from sailing and spending money. HAL has a machine I believe that they place in the cabin that actually takes the smoke out of the rooms pretty darn good. In most cases you have most likely been in a cabin that the previous passengers in that cabin were smokers. Once the ship has invested the money in these machines to use they probably pay for themselves.

 

I was in Jim and Ruths cabin numerous time on their past Oosterdam cruise and never once smelled smoke except for the time the were actually smoking which to me in itself is strange because I have a very sensitive nose :D I am guessing that when the cabin steward knows there are smokers they run the machine while they are cleaning the cabin on a daily basis.

Now like I said I am for non-smoking places but I am also looking at the BIG picture here.

People say they leave the casino because of the smoke but How much more would you have spent if it was smoke free? The fact that you were there meant that you did spend some money and knew walking in there would be smokers. I honestly do not know the actual numbers and would be interested in hearing what they would be.

[world~citizen]

This would be a answer that only HAL or the cruise lines could answer. My guess is not as much as revenue over all that could be lost from losing smokers from sailing and spending money. HAL has a machine I believe that they place in the cabin that actually takes the smoke out of the rooms pretty darn good. In most cases you have most likely been in a cabin that the previous passengers in that cabin were smokers. Once the ship has invested the money in these machines to use they probably pay for themselves.

 

I was in Jim and Ruths cabin numerous time on their past Oosterdam cruise and never once smelled smoke except for the time the were actually smoking which to me in itself is strange because I have a very sensitive nose :D I am guessing that when the cabin steward knows there are smokers they run the machine while they are cleaning the cabin on a daily basis.

Now like I said I am for non-smoking places but I am also looking at the BIG picture here.

People say they leave the casino because of the smoke but How much more would you have spent if it was smoke free? The fact that you were there meant that you did spend some money and knew walking in there would be smokers. I honestly do not know the actual numbers and would be interested in hearing what they would be.

 

Thats a good question. I know there is a lit more than just dirt involved. Cigarette damage to carpets, bedding, furniture and vanities would have to be considered as well. I really don't think this is a financial issue though.

 

Smooth sailing...:)

[weelv2cruise]

I'm amazed at the arrogance of the smoking set, flaunting their ability to "vote with their wallets", trying to browbeat HAL into submission (ala the OP's passive-aggressive "open letter"). I've never seen any evidence to suggest that smokers have fatter wallets than non-smokers.

 

Marc

 

ROTFLMAO The arrogance of who doing what?

[RuthC]

I think it's more than just on the Vista Ships. I've been told that there is no smoking in the Ocean Bar on the Statendam any longer either ... as well as possibly the Veendam. Those are not Vista ships.

You miss the point. The fact remains that on five HAL ships there is no reason that non-smokers need to be in the vicinity of smoke in the Ocean Bar, even if it is allowed. The two camps can live in peaceful co-existance, with the Atrium acting as the demilitarized zone.

When the Noordam first came out there was an enclosed smoking room near the Explorers Lounge. Less than a year later it had been taken over to sell rugs. Most (all?) of the Vistas started out with the Oak Room---another enclosed room for smokers. They, too are disappearing. No one had to go into them if they did not want to.

There are few enough inside places where smokers are allowed to indulge. It's not at all fair to take away those that did not intrude on non-smokers.

[JimVrhovac]

Thank you for the information about Sandals. It will actually cost less there than on a cruise.

 

Ruth & Jim

[hensghan]

Since any reasonably upscale motel or hotel offers both smoking and non-smoking rooms to their customers, perhaps HAL ought to at least consider offering this same choice to their cruise guests. If they did this, I'm sure their front office would very soon know beyond any doubt whatsoever exactly where their customers' preferences lie. If it proved they could fill their vessels without incurring recurring and exhorbitant cabin fumigation costs, I'm sure they'd jump on it. If it proved that smoking accommodations are actually as in demand as some CCers seem to be suggesting, perhaps smoking could be accommodated in certain aft cabins or, if an even greater demand persists, on one or two upper decks along just one side of the ship. Any other possible compromise suggestions?

[Copper10-8]

What HAL is doing is not about fun, its about serving and protecting. :D

 

Smooth sailing...

 

I'm all for protecting and serving!:)

I'm thinking this: HAL has been conducting a 'smoking survey' for close to a year starting in 08. Some (or more) smart guy(s) dressed in suits (then again, you never know; could have been a or more ladies also - stranger things have happened;)) have/has been compiling all that data. Survey says: there's more non-smokers than smokers on our boats! Now, don't start jumping all over me, svp! I'm just going with what Mr. Muzz referred to; I didn't see the results.

Anyway, a light magically comes on, an 'aha moment' takes place and several loud trumpets herald (is that a word?) on Elliott Street in See cattle (no, not about HAL champions, there ain't no such thing!:eek:)

Dude, where's my car?..................we're are all seeing the results of that survey and subsequent conclusion onboard as far as where one can currently 'light up' Some will like it, some will not, some like it hot. Some will go back to HAL with smiles on their respective faces.Some will get the heck out of Dodge where the grass is greener (ocean is more blue); what is a mother to do? Life goes on!

Btw, didn't they used to allow smoking on comercial aircraft?

[RuthC]

HAL does a survey on all its cruises about smoking. Doesn't it make sense that their smoking policy is reflecting the surveys?

Not when the questions are skewed to a particular result.

 

The questions ask if you will continue to sail HAL if smoking is banned, but not will you continue to sail if it is not banned.

There are people who don't smoke, but will accept designated smoking areas as all right. The survey does not measure for that.

[pipedreams62]

Are we all getting anywhere yet?:confused: I mean, just checkin' Are we having fun yet?

 

Fast moving bad boy, though!:eek:

 

 

[Rutland Gate]

Jim,

On the Noordam in February, the Ocean Bar had only six smoking seats or so, and some people who didn't smoke would occupy them early so no one could smoke. That creates an unnecessary atmosphere of conflict which can't help HAL.

Having lived in Europe for some time, we find this over-controlling of permitted social behavior unattractive. In Brussels an american lady went nuts because she had told the waiter she wanted a non-smoking table and there were people smoking around her. He said "There is nobody smoking at your table!"

[LAFFNVEGAS]

How many land based restaurants/bars/dance clubs do you know of that went belly up when smoking was no longer allowed? Didn't happen here in Ontario.

 

Oh I agree restaurants have thrived since the non smoking ban went into effect in non-gaming areas but that is NOT Casinos. Somehow Casinos and smoking go hand in hand at least here in Las Vegas. :D Kind of takes you back to the Rat Pack Days. I guess my question to you is how many Casinos does Ontario have? I can tell you that many bars in Vegas did hurt financially when this went into effect while the restaurants flourished. It has been tried in Las Vegas before to have Non-smoking Casinos or sections of Casinos and it did not work.

All the ships have Casinos. The question then is How Much revenue does the Casino on any given ship bring in? Could we be seeing Casinos on ships vanishing? It would definitely not effect my cruise but does it effect the profits of the ship? If it would the price of the cruise would definitely go up and worse cruise lines could go under? How many non-smokers would not cruise because of NO Casino? I do not know these answers. Maybe someone should start a Poll :confused:

[RuthC]

in brussels an american lady went nuts because she had told the waiter she wanted a non-smoking table and there were people smoking around her. He said "there is nobody smoking at your table!"

lol. :d

[pipedreams62]

I'm all for protecting and serving!:)

 

I'm thinking this: HAL has been conducting a 'smoking survey' for close to a year starting in 08. Some (or more) smart guy(s) dressed in suits (then again, you never know; could have been a or more ladies also - stranger things have happened;)) have/has been compiling all that data. Survey says: there's more non-smokers than smokers on our boats! Now, don't start jumping all over me, svp! I'm just going with what Mr. Muzz referred to; I didn't see the results.

 

Anyway, a light magically comes on, an 'aha moment' takes place and several loud trumpets herald (is that a word?) on Elliott Street in See cattle (no, not about HAL champions, there ain't no such thing!:eek:)

 

Dude, where's my car?..................we're are all seeing the results of that survey and subsequent conclusion onboard as far as where one can currently 'light up' Some will like it, some will not, some like it hot.

[Copper10-8]

Jim,

........................In Brussels an american lady went nuts because she had told the waiter she wanted a non-smoking table and there were people smoking around her. He said "There is nobody smoking at your table!"

 

Leave it to those Belgians!;) Bunch of patat vreters/French Fry eaters