OPEN LETTER to Mr Stein Kruse, CEO, HAL concerning recent changes in policies

[Copper10-8]

Thread drift

 

MAJOR thread drift but we're having fun instead of getting all bend out of shape, aren't we plus, maybe, just maybe, we can persuade Host Walt from coming out with that huge padlock of his;)

[usha]

Unless it's the Ocean Bar on a Vista ship or the E-dam. In that case it's spread out over both sides of the ship---with the Atrium in between. If one small portion of one side is smoking allowed, but the rest of that side and the entire other side of the ship is non-smoking, there should be plenty of room for everyone.

 

There is no reason whatsoever for a non-smoker to be bothered by smoke in the Ocean Bar on those ships.

Yeah, (didn't you read Jim's letter?) there's no smoking in the Ocean Bar on those ships anymore.

[iflyrc5]

On our recent Maasdam float the shops didn't get any of my DW's $$$ (:D) because most of them are directly across from the Casino and the smoke smell was very bad in the shop area. Could not really go from the dining room forward to the show lounge without going through the smoke.:(

[mariner]

Frankly Copper, try REGENT. You'll love it.

[pipedreams62]

I must go to sleep now,and I'm leaving you with all this mess.

 

I've stationed Red Adair on one smoking thread

 

 

Please take this (just in case) for the other smoking thread

[Copper10-8]

Frankly Copper, try REGENT. You'll love it.

 

Maybe one day - Crystal is first on that list

[DesertSunset]

I, for one, appreciate not breathng "anyone's" second-hand smoke.

 

Yes, viewing the beautiful stars is a much more pleasant alternative.

 

CC'rs, please feel free to flame away....

[Boytjie]

Can HAL really afford this new policy????

 

Flip side of the coin: can HAL afford not to listen to the much larger group of non-smokers?

 

In New York City they painted a gloomy picture for bars and restaurants when smoking was banned in public places. Well, that doomsday scenario did not happen.

[Copper10-8]

I must go to sleep now,and I'm leaving you with all this mess.

 

I've stationed Red Adair on one smoking thread

 

 

Please take this (just in case) for the other smoking thread

 

Thanks bud!

[Down-Unders]

We support HAL and look forward to a total ban on all their ships.

[BruceMuzz]

Most HAL ships receive between 150 and 200 complaints per week about too much smoking; and about 5 or 10 complaints per week about not enough space for smokers.

 

If you managed the cruise line, who would you listen to??

[CowPrincess]

Most HAL ships receive between 150 and 200 complaints per week about too much smoking; and about 5 or 10 complaints per week about not enough space for smokers.

 

Given your personal opinions on smoking, which you've been happy to post from time to time, why would we trust what you are saying? You are hardly an impartial "reporter" on this subject.

[Loves to dance]

Could not really go from the dining room forward to the show lounge without going through the smoke.:(

 

On our cruise on the Veendam a few years ago, I would actually travel decks out of the way to avoid going past the casino. I have asthma which is triggered by smoke, so it is worth it to me to run up and down a few extra flights of stairs. Fortunately, I am not a gambler, so I didn't mind the fact that it would have been impossible for me to enter the room and remain healthy.

 

Unfortunately, this is one of those topics where the two sides just won't ever agree... For those who either have health conditions that preclude being exposed to smoke or who simply detest the odor, they are going to resent being kept out of locations because others are smoking. For those who will not or cannot give up smoking, they are going to resent having their options restricted. I can imagine that it would be very uncomfortable to have a habit that others label "disgusting," when it is something that you find enjoyable. Just as I hope that smokers can imagine that some non-smokers truely cannot tolerate being around smoking.

[Cour10ay]

I'm sorry to learn about the change in smoking rules for the Oceans Bar. We took our first HAL cruise in Jan 2009 on the Westerdam and there was a small smoking area there at that time. We loved HAL and had planned to sail her again both in 2009 and 2010, but we won't now.

 

There are many cruise lines with quite restrictive smoking rules (Oceania, Celebrity, Azamara, Sea Dream, Silversea to name a few) for those of you who want that, but few lines that still treat smokers with any kind of respect.

 

I am sick to death of the Nanny society and people I don't even know spouting off and telling me what is good and bad for me. As long as I am following the rules then MYOB.

 

I guess HAL won't be sorry to lose our business either, but hey, our leaving will make the whiners happy.

 

Just as a side note - I have cruised a lot over the years and never seen a smoker whine on a ship. The bellyachers on every single cruise were the non-smokers. Just an observation.

[PenelopeCorelli]

Nice letter Jim, and not really sarcastic. I'm not a smoker, and don't like it, but I dislike the morality legislators always trying to force people to conform with their ideas of "what's good for you." I won't be sorry, for my own part, that smoking areas are gone, but I'm sorry for all the smokers who are despised, insulted, and made to feel like outcasts. JMO

[kryos]

More smokers need to tell HAL how they feel. The new rules drive more people to their private rooms and balconies, which then cause more nonsmokers to complain about people who smoke in their rooms and on their balconies. No matter how much we follow the rules, the more vocal nonsmoking contingent tries to remove those few places too.

Yeah, but the fear I have is that eventually you won't even be able to smoke in your cabin or on your balcony. That's the day the smokers will be driven off the cruise ships entirely. :(

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[kryos]

Unless it's the Ocean Bar on a Vista ship or the E-dam.

I think it's more than just on the Vista Ships. I've been told that there is no smoking in the Ocean Bar on the Statendam any longer either ... as well as possibly the Veendam. Those are not Vista ships.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[kryos]

Hmm, I wasn't aware that HAL had a new smoking policy. Too bad; it was nice to have a bar to go to and have a few drinks and a cigarette...

I've been told by someone in HAL corporate that there is no change in the current HAL smoking policy, which leads me to believe that this change is being made at the ship level ... perhaps as a means to increase bar revenues? I don't know ... but maybe bar revenues are off and the onboard staff (i.e., hotel managers) are trying different things to buoy them up? Maybe they feel that if they ban smoking in the more popular bars, like the Ocean Bar, that it will bring more people in for cocktails?

 

I know this has me upset too. My original favorite smoking spot was the Lido Deck ... those few tables on the one side where one could smoke. That area became the social spot for smokers and you always knew that if you went out there ... anytime of the day ... you would always meet up with someone to share a conversation ... a laugh ... whatever ... with. Well, HAL chased us from that area ... so the next spot was the Ocean Bar. It had that nice section near the bar where smokers could congregate, and we used it all hours of the day and night ... even if we weren't drinking. On my last cruise, we even had what was called the "Breakfast Club," a group of us that would meet up there in the mornings, bringing along a good book or whatever, and just socialize. Now we are being chased from there. Where do we go next?

 

I have a feeling that eventually the non-smokers will win ... because, after all, they are clearly the majority ... and there probably won't be very many places at all where one can smoke ... and the few places that are available will all be out of doors.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[marle7]

I've been told by someone in HAL corporate that there is no change in the current HAL smoking policy, which leads me to believe that this change is being made at the ship level ... perhaps as a means to increase bar revenues? I don't know ... but maybe bar revenues are off and the onboard staff (i.e., hotel managers) are trying different things to buoy them up? Maybe they feel that if they ban smoking in the more popular bars, like the Ocean Bar, that it will bring more people in for cocktails?

 

I know this has me upset too. My original favorite smoking spot was the Lido Deck ... those few tables on the one side where one could smoke. That area became the social spot for smokers and you always knew that if you went out there ... anytime of the day ... you would always meet up with someone to share a conversation ... a laugh ... whatever ... with. Well, HAL chased us from that area ... so the next spot was the Ocean Bar. It had that nice section near the bar where smokers could congregate, and we used it all hours of the day and night ... even if we weren't drinking. On my last cruise, we even had what was called the "Breakfast Club," a group of us that would meet up there in the mornings, bringing along a good book or whatever, and just socialize. Now we are being chased from there. Where do we go next?

 

I have a feeling that eventually the non-smokers will win ... because, after all, they are clearly the majority ... and there probably won't be very many places at all where one can smoke ... and the few places that are available will all be out of doors.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

Rita, I was told the change regarding the Ocean Bar did come from corporate and that is why it is happening fleet wide. :confused:

 

I'm with Jim. We will sail in our suite this coming Saturday for two weeks, and I expect our bar bill (which is usually pretty hefty) to be half of what it usually is on board because of this change. We will likely gamble a lot less, if there are non smoking nights in the casino. We will probably cancel our Oosterdam suite for next April. Yes, I'm sure HAL doesn't care, and the non smokers will be happy, but hey, revenue is revenue, and my several thousands of dollars will add up as others do the same.

 

There's too many other places I can spend thousands of dollars. Just got back from the Bahamas, and it was quite civilized there in terms of smoking rules. We are considering replacing our Oosterdam cruise with another trip back there.

[Lurker1]

Maybe someone said this, and I missed it, but;

HAL does a survey on all its cruises about smoking. Doesn't it make sense that their smoking policy is reflecting the surveys?

Also, there seems to be some confusion on this thread about the most recent changes to policy. It would be interesting to hear from people who have just cruised as to what the current policies were on their ships.

[kryos]

Rita, I was told the change regarding the Ocean Bar did come from corporate and that is why it is happening fleet wide. :confused:

Okay, then we both got conflicting stories. Who knows what the rules are? I just know for a fact that while smoking was allowed in the Ocean Bar during my Statendam cruise last September/October, it is no longer permitted now. And I got that from a high ranking officer onboard the ship right now.

 

As for me, I will hang in with HAL a bit longer. But if the day ever comes when I'm told that I can no longer smoke in my stateroom, then I fear I will be joining you in taking many of my vacations at land resorts in the future.

 

Sadly, this is a trend in the U.S. and we can "kick against the gourds" all we want, we're not going to stop it. The anti-smoking contingent is very strong here, and the ships we sail do a lot of their business with U.S. consumers. Someone said it best ... and while I don't like it, I have to agree ... for every one complaint a smoker makes, there are a couple of hundred from the non-smokers. The bottom line is that if HAL truly sees they are losing revenue in smoking venues onboard, they are slowly going to widdle away at them until there are simply none left. Maybe the Paradise didn't make it as a 100% non-smoking ship, but times have changed since the Paradise plied the seven seas. Who knows? Maybe a 100% non-smoking ship would be a resounding success today?

 

Revenue drives everything in our society, and the cruise lines will do those things that bring in the most revenue. If the casino manager notices that the casino revenue is off on smoking nights, and booming on smoke-free nights, I would imagine he will simply turn the casino into a 100% smoke-free venue. Same with the bars and lounges. Even if smoking is still allowed in staterooms, what ... I want to go on a cruise ship and then spend most of my time holed up in my stateroom? That doesn't make much sense.

 

So, like you, when the smoking policies onboard become too restrictive, I will probably begin seriously researching my land-based alternatives ... because I have a feeling that as HAL gets more and more restrictive, the other lines will be doing the same, so cruising simply won't be a viable option any longer for smokers.

 

Sad, huh?

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[Taxguy77]

Nice letter Jim, and not really sarcastic. I'm not a smoker, and don't like it, but I dislike the morality legislators always trying to force people to conform with their ideas of "what's good for you." I won't be sorry, for my own part, that smoking areas are gone, but I'm sorry for all the smokers who are despised, insulted, and made to feel like outcasts. JMO

My sentiments exactly! I used to smoke but now have an aversion to direct smoke. I can sit next to smokers in some bars, but not in oters. All depends on the A/C and airflow of the room/bar.

On Azamara, there was a smoking area indoors near one bar, and one on the pool deck. Worked fine for us non-smokers butwould have bothered me in the old days.

 

Perhaps some few would have HAL still provide spittoons in their bars. That would make about as much sense as continuing to permit smoking, wouldn't it? Is there any difference?

Several of my friends would appreciate that.

[NHRedSoxFan]

This may be helpful for both smokers & non-smokers. There is a guide in the Jan/Feb issue of Cruise Travel magazine giving the current smoking policies of each cruise line. (page 22). I'll type in the portion on HAL:

 

Holland America Line - Smoking and non-smoking areas are available in most lounges. Smoking is not permitted in show lounges, dining venues, and common public areas like atriums and hallways. It is allowed in staterooms, on balconies, and on open decks. Cigars and pipes are permitted only in the Lido Bar and smoking lounges.

 

another portion of the article:

 

No Major line currently offers a smoke-free ship, but the trend is certainly in that direction and clearly in line with the policies of hotels, restaurants, and municipalities. The strictest cruise lines have reduced the number of smoking areas to just a few patches of shipboard real estate. Smoke-free restaurants, theaters, and main show lounges are now universal. The same goes for lobbies and hallways.

 

Seaborn has reduced the smoking areas twice in the last year. Royal Caribbean banned smoking in staterooms and Celebrity Cruises declared all staterooms and balconies smoke-free. Celebrity will charge your on board account a $250 cleaning fee if a guest breaks the rule and smokes in the cabin.

 

According to this article HAL treats smokers better than most cruise lines, but all lines are reducing smoking areas of the ship. There is no disputing this trend. I think the most unfortunate thing for the OP is that they planned to be able to smoke and weren't informed of the change before hand, but most guests do not smoke, so the cruise lines have a tough balancing act.

[Krazy Kruizers]

I read that article - and thought that HAL had more relaxed rules than a couple of the other cruise lines.

[FNSIII]

Keep up the good work. I am sure appreciative. Aboard RCI a couple of years ago smoke ran me nuts.

Frank