AoS Refused Entry to St Lucia And Antigua

[Scotsnomad]

Just to keep things in perspective... in the 10 weeks or so since H1N1 surfaced in the US there have been 60 confirmed deaths due to H1N1 (141 worldwide). In the same period there have been approximately 8000 deaths from non-H1N1 influenza strains in the US alone! Just a little perspective to counter the media hype.

 

OMG 8000 !! I should imagine that 6999 of these were gun crimes and the rest drug related !

 

You cant use general numbers like 8000 without breaking it down to the relevant information. Gun and drug crime as we all know accounts for the majority of deaths !!!

[Scotsnomad]

I know this was earlier, but I just saw a new post by this poster saying they work with infectious diseases all the time. Not to be offensive, but this is what is so scary to me about new strains of things like this. Even the people that we are trusting to take care of us and take our symptoms seriously aren't up to date with critical information. I'm not sure if this is just someone looking at the 'no big deal' reporting of some media or just counting their chickens before they hatched or simply thinking that since they haven't seen anything in their hospital then it isn't a big deal - but a day later the WHO declared it a pandemic and they and the CDC let us know the ways in which this virus is certainly different than type A influenza. You only need to look through this thread to read those ways, including one that was just found that pregnant women can pass this on to their fetus' - something that the experts weren't aware of. So - I say to all of us posting, even those in healthcare that aren't actively working on understanding this virus - let's leave the facts to the experts and enough with the assumptions (that have turned out to be incorrect, mostly). When given the health status of ill people aboard a ship then I think I'm going to trust the island or port making the decision to let them in or not. Although we think we'll do well to pour our money into trinkets, alcohol, cheeseburgers and waverunners and create revenue - what good is that revenue when a virus that the islanders don't have immunity against or the best medical facilities to fend against creates sickness and/or deaths? Revenue shouldn't be placed over health. End of my rant :)

 

 

Well said !!!!!!!!! Ranted like a trooper !!!

[B767drvr]

OMG 8000 !! I should imagine that 6999 of these were gun crimes and the rest drug related !

 

You cant use general numbers like 8000 without breaking it down to the relevant information. Gun and drug crime as we all know accounts for the majority of deaths !!!

 

You need better reading spectacles my friend! ALL 8000 deaths were from influenza! US annual deaths from influenza is estimated 36,000 - 40,000. Worldwide death rates from influenza is estimated 250,000 - 500,000.

[Scotsnomad]

You need better reading spectacles my friend! ALL 8000 deaths were from influenza! US annual deaths from influenza is estimated 36,000 - 40,000. Worldwide death rates from influenza is estimated 250,000 - 500,000.

 

And these are statistical information from where?

But as you say yourself 'estimated'

[butrflynlambie]

looking to sail on AOS on 8/9 and hope no issues are affecting our sailing when the time comes.

 

I can't fault the islands for refusing entry, nor can I fault the cruise line for rerouting from ports in mexico earlier this year.

 

No one wants to be unnecessarily sick, especially if it has the potential to be life threatening.

 

I hope the cruise affected had good weather.

[B767drvr]

And these are statistical information from where?

But as you say yourself 'estimated'

 

World Health Organization and US Center for Disease Control...

 

Here's a good starting point with lots of links:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_swine_flu_outbreak

[hawkfish]

How about getting angry with the person who got on board with 'flu-like' symptoms? It's more their fault that RCCI's.

 

Or for that matter, who went to the infirmary to be treated for flu? It's the freaking flu! Drink lots of liquids, and get rest. Nothing the infirmary could do for you.

[hawkfish]

OMG 8000 !! I should imagine that 6999 of these were gun crimes and the rest drug related !

 

You cant use general numbers like 8000 without breaking it down to the relevant information. Gun and drug crime as we all know accounts for the majority of deaths !!!

 

Actually gun-related deaths in the US are right around 7000 people annually, and auto-related deaths are around 50,000 people. Not sure where you're getting the idea that gun and drug crimes result in the largest numbers of deaths.

 

As for the H1N1, the deaths were all among people who 1) have compromised immune systems anyway, or 2) live in places like Mexico City that have horrendous air quality conditions (there are actually measurable quantities of fecal matter in Mexico City's air). The average healthy person would just get this flu, be sick for a bit, and then get over it, like every other flu.

[Aquahound]

Actually gun-related deaths in the US are right around 7000 people annually, and auto-related deaths are around 50,000 people.

 

Well then it's a good thing these islands don't let us bring in cars and guns on the cruise ships! :D

 

 

Sorry, just lightening up the tense debate.

[iluvnyc]

Actually gun-related deaths in the US are right around 7000 people annually, and auto-related deaths are around 50,000 people. Not sure where you're getting the idea that gun and drug crimes result in the largest numbers of deaths.

 

As for the H1N1, the deaths were all among people who 1) have compromised immune systems anyway, or 2) live in places like Mexico City that have horrendous air quality conditions (there are actually measurable quantities of fecal matter in Mexico City's air). The average healthy person would just get this flu, be sick for a bit, and then get over it, like every other flu.

Sorry - that isn't true at all. 1/2 the deaths from H1N1 were of healthy young people with no underlying medical conditions. One such death was one of the 15 here in NYC, and perhaps more than that so also not just Mexico City.. You can check out the WHO and CDC for those reports. That's really the kind of misinformation I was talking about that I find dangerous. It makes people complacent, I think - something that the experts warn against...

P.S. - Reading what I just wrote I realized it may come off as snotty or argumentative - just wanted to let you know its not how I meant it - hard to convey that with the written word, you know?

[iluvnyc]

Well then it's a good thing these islands don't let us bring in cars and guns on the cruise ships! :D

 

 

Sorry, just lightening up the tense debate.

Lol! funny!:D

[Got2Cruise]

I totally "hear ya". I happen to be a teacher in the NYC schools and I do know that plenty more kids had the flu than has been officially reported. You know why? THEY DON'T TEST ANYONE! The little girl who just died, they tested her for it AFTER she died. Plus you hardly see anything in the media about it. They don't want people to panic. The answer is nobody "knows" how this is going to turn out. There is no vaccine yet. This flu is expected to mutate. It is "something", but to avoid panic the government is downplaying it.

 

Sorry - that isn't true at all. 1/2 the deaths from H1N1 were of healthy young people with no underlying medical conditions. One such death was one of the 15 here in NYC, and perhaps more than that so also not just Mexico City.. You can check out the WHO and CDC for those reports. That's really the kind of misinformation I was talking about that I find dangerous. It makes people complacent, I think - something that the experts warn against...

P.S. - Reading what I just wrote I realized it may come off as snotty or argumentative - just wanted to let you know its not how I meant it - hard to convey that with the written word, you know?

[Ocean Boy]

I know this was earlier, but I just saw a new post by this poster saying they work with infectious diseases all the time. Not to be offensive, but this is what is so scary to me about new strains of things like this. Even the people that we are trusting to take care of us and take our symptoms seriously aren't up to date with critical information. I'm not sure if this is just someone looking at the 'no big deal' reporting of some media or just counting their chickens before they hatched or simply thinking that since they haven't seen anything in their hospital then it isn't a big deal - but a day later the WHO declared it a pandemic and they and the CDC let us know the ways in which this virus is certainly different than type A influenza. You only need to look through this thread to read those ways, including one that was just found that pregnant women can pass this on to their fetus' - something that the experts weren't aware of. So - I say to all of us posting, even those in healthcare that aren't actively working on understanding this virus - let's leave the facts to the experts and enough with the assumptions (that have turned out to be incorrect, mostly). When given the health status of ill people aboard a ship then I think I'm going to trust the island or port making the decision to let them in or not. Although we think we'll do well to pour our money into trinkets, alcohol, cheeseburgers and waverunners and create revenue - what good is that revenue when a virus that the islanders don't have immunity against or the best medical facilities to fend against creates sickness and/or deaths? Revenue shouldn't be placed over health. End of my rant :)

 

I totally "hear ya". I happen to be a teacher in the NYC schools and I do know that plenty more kids had the flu than has been officially reported. You know why? THEY DON'T TEST ANYONE! The little girl who just died, they tested her for it AFTER she died. Plus you hardly see anything in the media about it. They don't want people to panic. The answer is nobody "knows" how this is going to turn out. There is no vaccine yet. This flu is expected to mutate. It is "something", but to avoid panic the government is downplaying it.

 

I stongly suggest that if you both are so concerned about this virus that you get out of NYC as soon as possible. And I am not trying to be stide at all. But I highly doubt that you can go a day in the city without potential exposure to it. If it is as common in the schools as Got2Cruise says I would bet that it is almost impossible to get on the subway without being exposed to the virus before you get off of the subway.

 

Iluvnyc, by the way I also love NYC, each viral strain and substrain is going to have its own nuances and behave (somewhat) in its own way. You keep talking about assumptions and facts. The fact is that this virus is not proving, at this time, to be any more lethal than typical stains of flu that we have seen in recent years. That may change in the future but we need to react to what is happening now. And, by the way, you will always be able to find examples of people with no underlying health conditions that end up dying from viral and bacterial infections that in most instances are very mild. Unfortunately it happens. I have a very healthy respect for the microbial world as should we all.

 

And once again, if the premise is that an island and population need to be protected from this virus turning away one cruise ship isn't going to cut it. Either take some steps that might actually make a difference or take your chances. Either way, turning away Adventure this week in all likelyhood made zero impact on whether or not these islands see their own pandemics.

[hawkfish]

The fact is that this virus is not proving, at this time, to be any more lethal than typical stains of flu that we have seen in recent years. That may change in the future but we need to react to what is happening now. And, by the way, you will always be able to find examples of people with no underlying health conditions that end up dying from viral and bacterial infections that in most instances are very mild. Unfortunately it happens. I have a very healthy respect for the microbial world as should we all.

 

 

OB - this was my point (which apparently I didn't make very well).

 

Children (including teenagers) are always more susceptible to flu deaths. As are the elderly. As are the infirm. So far, everyone I have read aboutu dying falls into those categories, or live in places like Mexico City, where unhealthy living conditions could easily contribute to a weakened immune system.

 

And I'd think if there were actually a government conspiracy to cover up the swine flu, they wouldn't be working with the WHO in managing the pandemic.

[goneclear]

For these islands to make a decision to refuse entry must have been a very difficult one especially in these tough economic times and especially since tourism is the main income earner for these countries. It Is is of course good to know that taking all of that into consideration they took a decision that they thought best for their citizens. I am not judge or jury here but I am sure they made the best decision based on the information they had at the time and that should be respected.

[Got2Cruise]

Ocean Boy, again you take something that is quite serious and make a flip answer. You are not an infectious disease specialist are you? You are the one who is talking off the top of your head and not quoting facts. You are trying to tell me what is happening in NYC schools and you don't even live here, forget about working in the schools. It is stated on the NYC Dept of Education website, that if you have flulike symptoms, it most likely is the Swine Flu. Again, the disease is being underreported because they are not testing for it. Now, mostly healthy middle school students are getting it and recovering. But if you read the articles, the health community is bracing for it to mutate in the fall, and there will be no vaccine and then many with compromising health situation will get the flu. It is not only these two islands who are turning people away. China recently put people into quarantine. I have no idea whether this is a good idea or not, but neither do you, because you simply do not know how this virus is going to mutate.

 

I stongly suggest that if you both are so concerned about this virus that you get out of NYC as soon as possible. And I am not trying to be stide at all. But I highly doubt that you can go a day in the city without potential exposure to it. If it is as common in the schools as Got2Cruise says I would bet that it is almost impossible to get on the subway without being exposed to the virus before you get off of the subway.

 

Iluvnyc, by the way I also love NYC, each viral strain and substrain is going to have its own nuances and behave (somewhat) in its own way. You keep talking about assumptions and facts. The fact is that this virus is not proving, at this time, to be any more lethal than typical stains of flu that we have seen in recent years. That may change in the future but we need to react to what is happening now. And, by the way, you will always be able to find examples of people with no underlying health conditions that end up dying from viral and bacterial infections that in most instances are very mild. Unfortunately it happens. I have a very healthy respect for the microbial world as should we all.

 

And once again, if the premise is that an island and population need to be protected from this virus turning away one cruise ship isn't going to cut it. Either take some steps that might actually make a difference or take your chances. Either way, turning away Adventure this week in all likelyhood made zero impact on whether or not these islands see their own pandemics.

[Ocean Boy]

Ocean Boy, again you take something that is quite serious and make a flip answer. You are not an infectious disease specialist are you? You are the one who is talking off the top of your head and not quoting facts. You are trying to tell me what is happening in NYC schools and you don't even live here, forget about working in the schools. It is stated on the NYC Dept of Education website, that if you have flulike symptoms, it most likely is the Swine Flu. Again, the disease is being underreported because they are not testing for it. Now, mostly healthy middle school students are getting it and recovering. But if you read the articles, the health community is bracing for it to mutate in the fall, and there will be no vaccine and then many with compromising health situation will get the flu. It is not only these two islands who are turning people away. China recently put people into quarantine. I have no idea whether this is a good idea or not, but neither do you, because you simply do not know how this virus is going to mutate.

I was not being flip and how many times have I stated that we do not know what this virus will do in the future????????? And no, I do not specialize in infectious disease....do you? I think it would be a pretty safe bet that I have treated more cases of swine flu than you have. It seems, according to your post, That the schools are loaded with swine flu in NYC. Yet people are getting it and recovering. That is the point, and really only point, that some of us have been trying to make. No one is arguing the point that there is a lot of the virus around. That is what a pandemic is. However, so far it has not been unusually lethal. How much hysteria can people get over what this virus will do in the future? The fact is you could be better off getting it now, recovering, and developing immunity while the virus is non-lethal rather than waiting for some possible lethal mutation that you have no immunity to and no vaccine for.

 

I have no more to really say on this. I've stated my opinion. You have stated yours. There is no need for concensus.

[iluvnyc]

I stongly suggest that if you both are so concerned about this virus that you get out of NYC as soon as possible. And I am not trying to be stide at all. But I highly doubt that you can go a day in the city without potential exposure to it. If it is as common in the schools as Got2Cruise says I would bet that it is almost impossible to get on the subway without being exposed to the virus before you get off of the subway.

 

Iluvnyc, by the way I also love NYC, each viral strain and substrain is going to have its own nuances and behave (somewhat) in its own way. You keep talking about assumptions and facts. The fact is that this virus is not proving, at this time, to be any more lethal than typical stains of flu that we have seen in recent years. That may change in the future but we need to react to what is happening now. And, by the way, you will always be able to find examples of people with no underlying health conditions that end up dying from viral and bacterial infections that in most instances are very mild. Unfortunately it happens. I have a very healthy respect for the microbial world as should we all.

 

And once again, if the premise is that an island and population need to be protected from this virus turning away one cruise ship isn't going to cut it. Either take some steps that might actually make a difference or take your chances. Either way, turning away Adventure this week in all likelyhood made zero impact on whether or not these islands see their own pandemics.

Okay, I have to be honest here - I would not feel comfortable with you treating me if I had an infectious disease. You just seem to want to believe what you want to believe without looking at actual facts. I wouldn't leave NYC because of this - and the schools are certainly riddled with it as is NJ - one of the schools in Morris County that my friend works at has 27 cases just right now. Yes - its here and anyone can catch it - but I find it funny that you would recommend I leave since its so prevalent here if I'm concerned but you don't 'get' the islands not wanting possible cases coming to infect them when they don't yet have it. It's the same principle.

As well, I wasn't citing 'finding a few examples' of people with no underlying health conditions dying from flu. And to the other poster that suggested that young, healthy people normally die from flu - no - wrong. I am talking about 1/2 of the people that have died from H1N1 were young and healthy. Not sure why you want to sweep that under the carpet - its not common, that is not the norm AT ALL with regular flu strains. I keep saying it and it doesn't seem to be sinking in with certain folks. :confused: If you have been treating infectious diseases for a long time I certainly HOPE that you have learned that you don't 'wait and see' how it mutates and what it does. You contain to the best of your ability, study it, stop it from spreading if possible, create a vaccine or treatment and keep at it. You don't throw up your hands and say 'well, we'll just wait and see what it does'. Makes no sense to me at all.

Again, you aren't an expert in infectious diseases, I'm assuming. As well, I thought I had read that your hospital didn't have any cases yet - maybe I was wrong about that - don't you know Esmerelda? I probably read it wrong. However, lets leave this to the experts who have called a pandemic and wish to eradicate rather than treat this virus and respect each island and ports decision to protect their people over their revenue. I've also said all I can I think...

[Ocean Boy]

Okay, I have to be honest here - I would not feel comfortable with you treating me if I had an infectious disease. You just seem to want to believe what you want to believe without looking at actual facts. I wouldn't leave NYC because of this - and the schools are certainly riddled with it as is NJ - one of the schools in Morris County that my friend works at has 27 cases just right now. Yes - its here and anyone can catch it - but I find it funny that you would recommend I leave since its so prevalent here if I'm concerned but you don't 'get' the islands not wanting possible cases coming to infect them when they don't yet have it. It's the same principle. As well, I wasn't citing 'finding a few examples' of people with no underlying health conditions dying from flu. And to the other poster that suggested that young, healthy people normally die from flu - no - wrong. I am talking about 1/2 of the people that have died from H1N1 were young and healthy. Not sure why you want to sweep that under the carpet - its not common, that is not the norm AT ALL with regular flu strains. I keep saying it and it doesn't seem to be sinking in with certain folks. :confused: If you have been treating infectious diseases for a long time I certainly HOPE that you have learned that you don't 'wait and see' how it mutates and what it does. You contain to the best of your ability, study it, stop it from spreading if possible, create a vaccine or treatment and keep at it. You don't throw up your hands and say 'well, we'll just wait and see what it does'. Makes no sense to me at all.Again, you aren't an expert in infectious diseases, I'm assuming. As well, I thought I had read that your hospital didn't have any cases yet - maybe I was wrong about that - don't you know Esmerelda? I probably read it wrong. However, lets leave this to the experts who have called a pandemic and wish to eradicate rather than treat this virus and respect each island and ports decision to protect their people over their revenue. I've also said all I can I think...

 

First of all, I don't really mean that you should leave NYC. Heck, I love that place so much that if I were there it would take more than some virus to get me out! But lets face it, with the virus being so prevelent I think it would be pretty impossible to live one's normal routine without being exposed to the virus every day. That is all I was really trying to say. Obviously, it didn't quite come across that way. And typically things are misinturpreted on these boards when the subject is something that people feel passionate about.

 

However, you are completely missing my point as far as the islands go. Of course I can understand them not wanting this virus spreading around. But if they are really serious about this it will take much more than stopping one cruise ship from making port. You keep talking about how prevelent this virus is. No one is arguing that point. You have to realize that there is a reasonable chance that every cruise ship and every plane going to the islands has someone, and likely many more than one, aboard carrying this virus. My only point all along has been that if they really want to make a difference they need to take far more widespread action. Stopping Adventure from porting this week while allowing another ship to dock and allowing countless planes to land is not going to accomplish their goal if, in fact, the goal is to try to keep the virus from spreading around the islands and to protect the population from exposure.. That was, and is, my point. I could understand turning Adventure away if they were taking a more widespread approach to stopping the spread of this disease. I have nowhere, at least intentionally, said that this virus should be allowed to spread unchecked or that people should not be concerned. But I see the action taken with Adventure this week as sticking one's finger in the hole in the dike while the water is flowing over the top. Why bother locking the front door of your house when the back door, garage, and windows are all wide open?

 

Also, have I somewhere said that we should through up our hands and wait and see what this virus does in the future? What I have said is we can only know what this virus is doing now. We have no way to predict what it will do. We do need to do what we can to contain it. We do need to study and watch it so that we learn its nuances and pick up on any changes in its characteristics that may occur. We may need to change our strategies toward this virus as we learn more and it evolves...or we might not. And we do need a vaccine... a safe and effective one and not one that is rushed to production in order to quench a sense of fear about what this virus might do at sometime in the future. And, just as you are not about to leave NYC over this, we all need to live our lives as normally as is possible as we deal with this issue.

[Ocean Boy]

......and... we need to not let fear guide our actions and reactions.

[stanford's girl]

The difference here is that in your case, the choice to skip was RCI's. In this case, the ship was blocked from porting by the local authorities.

 

In your case, more should have been offered. In this case, RCI owes nothing.

 

JMO.

Thanks Paul but I wish that RCI felt the same way about it. We have all written our letters and RCI still says that our sailing was dealt with fairly. :mad:

 

According to the RCI press person, there were no refunds in the form of obc issued to passengers for the sea day replacing the port day.

This answer doesn't surprise me on little bit!! :rolleyes:

 

My Father said that RCCL was VERY Careful with the verbage they have used reguarding the "outbreak".

That's so RCI will be able to spin it anyway they want to later. :rolleyes:

[stanford's girl]

Perhaps the ports took it on their own authority because RCI got caught in a lie when they told the news channel that the Mariner of the Seas never stopped in any Mexican ports that week, which was a lie, we spent 6 hours there!!! :P

You got that right, Ziggy!!! :D

 

I happen to be a teacher in the NYC schools and I do know that plenty more kids had the flu than has been officially reported. You know why? THEY DON'T TEST ANYONE!

I hear you. I came back back from my Mariner cruise, which stopped in Cabo and had all the symptoms of the swine flu. I went to the doctor to be tested and she said they have no confirmed cases in our county, so she wasn't going to test me. I told her that I had traveled to Mexico and wanted to be sure so could she please test me. Again she said there was really no need to because I was already past the worst of it.

I ended up having to convince her to test me for it. The only reason that she finally agreed to do it was because my work wouldn't let me come back until the test came back negative or I was past the incubation period.

[CrucianGal]

I am relieved that none of the crew nor passengers on AoS tested positive for Swine Flu as they were in St. Croix yesterday and shopping in the store I manage. With that said if there had been cases of Swine Flu verified I would have been very nervous about them coming onto the island. If there is an out break on a small Caribbean island and even 1% of the island comes down with the virus the island could come to a hault. We are isolated, so it's not like we can call in outsiders to help with the everyday functions of our island. As I stated earlier our medical is not on par with the mainland and any out break would stretch the resources here to the max.

 

Now I know that any person flying in could bring the virus and I am not proposing banning flights in or out, but I do believe it would be irresponsible for an island's health authorities to knowingly let people exposed to Swine Flu onto their island. St. Lucia and Antigua made a mistake but they did it with the information they had at the time. Once it was confirmed that the tests results for Swine Flu were negative St. Thomas was added to the itinerary. Most of the passengers I spoke with yesterday in St. Croix had a great time on their cruise regardless of the change in itinerary.

 

Regards from sunny St. Croix,

CrucianGal

[CrucianGal]

People posting here likely have biases.

 

My bias is that I live on a small Caribbean Island, (St. Croix) so I don't want the island to come down with a virus that could harm the island population.

 

Another person posting is a Royal Champion so it is possible that this person would not want the cruise line he champions to look bad by missing a port.

[Ocean Boy]

People posting here likely have biases.

 

My bias is that I live on a small Caribbean Island, (St. Croix) so I don't want the island to come down with a virus that could harm the island population.

 

Another person posting is a Royal Champion so it is possible that this person would not want the cruise line he champions to look bad by missing a port.

You seriously think that is what this discussion is about?:(