Getting Past my Paranoia

[happy cruzer]

Glad to provide an option.

 

PS I meant to be putting my comprehision in question not anyone elses. I love Don's posts. :)

[spindrift]

You know, Hondorner--there can be so many interpretations. Regardless of the small print, right? Any medical condition which "pre-existed" prior to your booking is considered "pre-existing," regardlss of how well it is controlled. If it wasn't controlled, you probably wouldn't be here or wouldn't be booking a trip. Your health will be well-documented through your medical records, and if diagnosed prior to the trip booking - think "pre-existing."

 

Anyway, I feel comfortable getting my insurance and don't have to worry whether or not I bought it in time. The reputable companies will transfer your policy to other trips, which I mentioned earlier. I believe that company is Travel Guard in this case. Very well handled.

 

Bottom line - go with what you find comfortable, but make sure you get "names" of the individuals to whom you have spoken to assure your back-up.

[St. Louis]

Your paranoia is probably an entirely normal reaction in these economic straits. The site mentioned by Murphy is where I get my trip insurance; you can drill down to the details for all of there companies and policies. In addition, you can compare 2 or 3 policies at a time side-by-side. I have insured through that site 4 or 5 times, and have chosen a different company or policy each time as they suit my needs.

 

I won't try to dissuade you from your feelings, but I will say that I have never purchased trip insurance with the primary purpose of protecting against a default. I'm primarily concerned with health and possible medical transportation.

 

As far as the financial health of Oceania, I cannot think of a cruise line better positioned to ride the rising tide. I have not yet insured my back-to-back cruises next March and April, and I eagerly await the release of the deck plans and booking for the New ship, Marina, due out at the end of 2010.

 

As long as Frank Del Rio has anything to do with it, quality and service will never be cut.

 

Are you kidding? Frank Del Rio was responsible for Renaissance lines and they went bankrupt - he was CEO until four months before the bankruptcy. Be careful.

[Benita]

Never buy travel insurance from the cruise line or tour operator - it does not cover you in the event of the bankruptcy of that line. I am a bit of a nerd (OK, quite a nerd) and actually read the small print of all these insurance plans - easy to do via insuremytrip.com

I tend to stay away from Access America, because they are very limited in the airlines they cover for bankruptcy. I tend to stay away from Travelguard, as they do not cover things like airline stikes by Alitalia, which happens all the time. We usually wind up with Travelinsured or Highway to Health. Make sure you buy within the time frame, usually 10-14 days after the initial deposit, to have both bankruptcy protection and pre-existing condition protection.

Hopefully, my comments are not violating Cruise Critic rules, but since the question of different agencies was asked, I think I am OK in replying.

[hondorner]

Are you kidding? Frank Del Rio was responsible for Renaissance lines and they went bankrupt - he was CEO until four months before the bankruptcy. Be careful.

I feel sorry for you. You obviously have an axe to grind and you seem not to miss an opportunity. I would not like to live in such a negative manner.

 

Moreover, my understanding of the role played by FDR in Renaissance is considerably different than yours. You manage to word your statements in such a way that it appears that FDR was responsible for the bankruptcy. Yet, you, yourself state that he left Renaissance four months prior to the bankruptcy.

 

My understanding is that Ren was struggling due to their ill-fated attempt to bypass the travel agents when they first started, and FDR turned that around by bringing the travel agents back into the fold. My understanding is that Ren was beginning to recover under FDR's management, but never had a chance to fully recover when the 9/11 tragedy occurred. As everyone knows, the days immediately following the 9/11 tragedy were not good for travel, and Ren ceased operating on September 25, 2001.

 

The CEO at the time of the bankruptcy was Manfred Ursprunger, who came from Celebrity. He was appointed on April 20, 2001, shortly after Malvern Maritime, led by Norwegian shipowner Peter Gram, became the majority shareholder of R Holdings, the parent company of Renaissance Cruises. FDR and Richard Kirby were co-CEO's of Ren at the time.

 

So, was FDR responsible for the bankruptcy? I sincerely doubt it. I think Ren had a chance of succeeding either under FDR and Kirby or under the new owner's choice of CEO, had it not been for the 9/11 tragedy.

[Benita]

It does not matter who was responsible for the bankruptcy. The lesson to be learned is to protect your investment with insurance that will protect you against bankruptcy.

[LAexNY]

It does not matter who was responsible for the bankruptcy. The lesson to be learned is to protect your investment with insurance that will protect you against bankruptcy.

 

You may be right but Don's point relates to St. Louis' being a one trick pony - 20 posts in 8 years and every one complaining about Renaissance!

[threeedogmedia]

TaxJam, my husband and I were on this exact same cruise in 2006 and there were pirates out and about during that time. I never once had a concern onboard because they were quite prepared and had a good number of guards onboard. If you wish to communicate more about this situation privately, please send a note to threeedogmedia at yahoo dot com. This was a truly delightful cruise and I have no hesitation going on Oceania again.....in fact, we're booked on a 36 day cruise next April with them. The only reason we got travel insurance on this trip is because I am recovering from cancer and didn't want to have a health problem develop after we paid for business class air and our final deposit - not because of any concern about their financial position. I have a wonderful travel agent who many on this board use and have not had one moment of apprehension about traveling with Oceania on our soon to be seventh - ninth cruise. In my opinion, Oceania is a class act and we've never had a bad cruise with them.....

Karen

[threeedogmedia]

Oops, after my long winded explanation of why I am not concerned about Oceania's financial position or the area you plan on cruising through, I neglected to tell you that the company I insured our trip with was Access America. They have insured many of our past cruises and we've seen how wonderful they treat their customers when they become ill. I did look at insuremytrip.com and did a lot of comparison shopping but still came back to the one I am familiar with.....

[Friscorays]

I had not realized it was August 2009 already.

 

St Louis worried about Oceania going bankrupt in a thread from August 2007: http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=934561&highlight=bankrupt

 

St Louis worried about Oceania going bankrupt in a thread from August 2008: http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=834429&highlight=bankrupt

 

St Louis worried about Oceania going bankrupt in thread from February 2009 (a few months early): http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=834429&highlight=bankrupt

 

See you all August 2010!

 

PS concerning original posters issue #2, I'll quote myself from one of the older threads:

 

"I'll begin by saying that I am by no means an expert. However from what I gather, if you paid for a trip with a credit card and the airline or cruise line ceases to operate before your trip, you are covered by your credit card company under federal credit laws since you bought or contracted for a service which you did not get."

[taxjam]

I'd like to thank everyone for their comments; many were insightful and helpful. After reviewing several trip insurance policies and looking at the insuremytrip website, I selected Access America which in my analysis provided the coverage we wanted at a reasonable price. We are really looking forward to the cruise.

 

I was surprised by some of the comments regarding potential supplier default and the use of credit cards as payments. The 35 day Oceana cruise involves an expenditure of over $20,000 and payment for the April 9th departure for us is due in November.

 

Re supplier default. Two years ago, who would have thought GM, Chrysler, etc. would be going through bankruptcy. Indeed, two years ago, several brokers had buy ratings on these pillars of American capitalism. In our current economic environment, even if Oceana or its parent were a publicly traded company with readily accessable financial information (which it isn't), it is only prudent to have a concern even if everything looks rosey. Given the amount of money involved, it would be careless not to consider the possibility and evaluate whether protection is warranted.

 

Re credit cards. The Fair Credit Billing Act does allow a consumer to dispute a credit card charge for services that were not rendered; however, the cardholder must dispute the charges within 60 days of the billing date (thus a maximum of about 90 days). Here's a link to a simple, non-legalese FTC explanation of the law.

 

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/credit/cre16.shtm

 

The last time I looked April 2010 is more than 90 days from the November 2009 final payment in November as well the August 2009 deposit. Unless you think your credit card company (bank) has a practice of making restitution out of sympathy, I wouldn't rely exclusively on this provision.

 

One final thing I learned - if you select a policy that offers supplier default and/or pre-existing condition protection you need to purchase the policy within 14 days of your initial deposit for that coverage to be effective.

[Friscorays]

The General Motors death watch began in April 2005:

 

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/category/editorials/gm-death-watch/page/25/

 

I hope that you enjoy your cruise. I really think you have absolutely nothing to worry about as far as Oceania failing to exist between now and next April but if it gives you anxiety not to insure your trip, you should of course do so.

[taxjam]

The General Motors death watch began in April 2005:

 

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/category/editorials/gm-death-watch/page/25/

 

I hope that you enjoy your cruise. I really think you have absolutely nothing to worry about as far as Oceania failing to exist between now and next April but if it gives you anxiety not to insure your trip, you should of course do so.

 

 

Funny, the obscure publication knew more than the sophisticated financial press. On June 2nd 2008 Barron's recommended buying GM stock in its cover feature!

 

http://online.barrons.com/article/SB121218756175534083.html

 

MONDAY, JUNE 2, 2008

BARRON'S COVER

Buy GM

 

By VITO RACANELLI | MORE ARTICLES BY AUTHOR

 

General Motors' turnaround could accelerate in coming years, driving handsome gains for bold stockholders. Needed: A jolt from the hybrid Chevrolet Volt.

 

and Barron's wasn't alone, I just don't have more time to waste making the point that no matter how secure you think something is you need to exercise a minimal standard of care when the amounts involved are not de minimis. And no, I never bought GM stock.

[Friscorays]

Seems to me that you have made a very good argument for not believing everything you read in Barron's or the "sophisticated financial press." I follow the car industry fairly closely and people have been expecting GM to go under for years now. It hardly came as a surprise but if you insist it was than we will agree to disagree.

 

I'll try to remember to dig this thread up after your cruise in April once your "paranoia" has been proven to be unfounded or maybe you can bring it back to the top with a review of the trip.

[bigdipper]

Don't want to start a fight here, but anyone with access to S&P ratings of financial strength of Oceania/Prestige/Apollo might find it somewhat informative. This is a long way from a AAA organization and while I am not forecasting defaults no question IMHO that one should insure against it. Watch the travel insurance companies list of non-covered organizations to see the ones really in dire straights. We are planning on being with Oceania 58 days shortly so it should be clear that we are expecting all to go OK financially.

[WillTell]

I would like some confirmation about how the "Pre-existing condition" thing works. Here's what I understand:

 

I have a heart condition, cardiomyopathy, which is essentially dead heart muscle. No one is sure how it happened, but the cardiologists speculated I had a series of silent heart attacks which caused the damage. At the time I was diagnosed (about 5 years ago), I had an ejection fraction (a measurement of heart function) of 17 (normal is around 65). After 5 years of exercise to tolerance, careful diet and medication (Coreg), my EF is up to 30 and I lead a nearly normal life, although I tire more quickly than others. I also have an implanted defibrillator in case I have heart failure, which is how I discovered this condition in the first place.

 

Obviously, I always buy travel insurance in case something goes wrong, and I especially am concerned about medical transportation or repatriation of remains. But, like everyone else who books as early as 15 months before sailing, and who has had to cancel two cruises before final payment, I don't want to signup and pay for the insurance that early.

 

So, I carefully questioned the agent at insuremytrip.com, and she assured me that any condition that is under control, that is a condition that is entirely controlled by medication and has had no more than routine care by physicians, is not considered a pre-existing condition. In other words, I don't about my heart condition when ordering the insurance. I repeated the question a couple of different ways to be sure we were understanding each other.

 

According to what I understood her to say, a pre-existing condition is a condition that occurs or worsens within within a certain time period before the insurance is purchased. In other words, it is not a stable condition that existed before the coverage was purchased, but a condition that became extant within the period specified in the contract before the insurance is purchased. If the insurance is purchased within a set time of initial payment (for most of us, the time of deposit), any such condition is covered. But, if one waits to purchase the insurance, apparently they feel the only reason you might be purchasing the insurance is to cover a condition that just started to occur. In other words, they assume you would not be booking the trip if you were sick, but if you become sick, you might try to purchase the insurance.

 

I also understood her to say that any medical condition that arose after the insurance was purchased is automatically not a pre-existing condition, and would be covered.

 

According to my understanding, what it boils down to is that if I do not purchase the insurance at the time of initial payment, but purchase it later, and if I have contracted a serious medical condition that prevents me from taking the trip, they will investigate to determine if the condition existed at the time of the insurance purchase. If so, they will not cover it. If the condition arises after the insurance purchase, they will cover it.

 

What it boils down to is that my heart condition is considered stable and under control and is therefore not a pre-existing condtion under the terms of the insurance contract. I believe there is a period of time, perhaps one or two years, during which the condition must be under control. And, as long as I have no medical problems that have cropped up within those limits when I purchase the insurance, I will be covered for anything that occurs later. This coverage is effective even if it is my heart condition that worsens and causes the medical problem.

 

That's how it was explained to me, but it's possible my understanding is flawed.

 

Don, I read your posting with great interest. The medical history surrounding your heart condition, cardiomyopathy, makes it almost impossible for you to argue that it is not a pre-existing condition. The medications and your self monitoring vigilance is to be commended but the diagnosis of 5 years ago still remains, thereby making it (cardiomyopathy) a pre-existing condition - stable or otherwise. Sadly, I think coverage would be denied by claims department at the insurance company. The agent that sells the insurance and the claims department often have vastly different interpretations of this exclusionary clause. Best of luck.

[Bowie MeMe]

I also think it would be pre-exisiting condition. I still get "questions" about colon cancer that was completely "cured" by surgery in 1992. Doctor says any cancer now would be new but long term care insurance and health care etc. all say history of cancer pre-existing and diagnoised condition.

 

Have you considered Medjet Assist for medical evacuation insurance? It runs for a year and will jet you to hospital of choice if you are 150 miles from home. Never had to use it but think it is comforting to have. AARP gets you a great discount.

 

I buy travel insurance from deposit. Then add all prepaid excursions, hotels, land package later ($32 for about $5000 worth of other parts of cruise vacation). I don't like paying for car insurance "before I need it" but understand that it is essential. Travel insurance on an expensive cruise is also hopefully never used but neccessary. On a cheap travel (like SWA to Florida $39 each way) I self insure -- just forget it if the trip has to be cancelled.

 

Good luck and enjoy your travel. Do what you can do and be thankful.

[hondorner]

Don, I read your posting with great interest. The medical history surrounding your heart condition, cardiomyopathy, makes it almost impossible for you to argue that it is not a pre-existing condition. The medications and your self monitoring vigilance is to be commended but the diagnosis of 5 years ago still remains, thereby making it (cardiomyopathy) a pre-existing condition - stable or otherwise. Sadly, I think coverage would be denied by claims department at the insurance company. The agent that sells the insurance and the claims department often have vastly different interpretations of this exclusionary clause. Best of luck.

I've done a little more research since I posted that message. Specifically, I looked for definitions of pre-existing conditions. What I discovered is that the key is the Look Back Period, which generally varies from 60 to 180 days, depending on the policy.

 

Here is one defintion I found -- all were similar: "If [during the Lookback Period] the person with the condition has any symptoms, appointment or visit or consultation with a medical professional, test, diagnosis, medication adjustment or change, then a pre-existing condition exists."

 

By definition, therefore, if there has been no symptoms, no appointment, visit or consultation regarding the condition (obviously, a visit to the dentist does not create a pre-existing condition regard one's heart, for example), and if there have been no tests, no diagnosis or medication adjustment, or if the condition has not changed, during the lookback period, then there is no pre-existing condition.

 

It is confusing, and there are contradictory statements out there, but as I said, the ley is whether there has been any activity related to any condition during the lookback period. I suppose if I consulted an optician for new glasses, and then had to cancel the trip due to sudden blindness, that would constitute a pre-existing condition. But, since I have had no tests, diagnoses, medication changes, no consultations and no changes in the condition within the lookback, it is not considered a pre-existing condition.

[threeedogmedia]

We too use MedjetAssist on a yearly basis to have extra insurance if we are over 150 miles away from home and are in the hospital for a condition that requires you to remain in the hospital. Then they will transport you to a hospital of your choice - home or if a certain hospital treats your condition better, they will transport you there. MedjetAssist is not an insurance company but a private membership. The Access America insurance would cover the cost of the hospital initially but would act as secondary after medjetassist for your transport home.

 

We've been fortunate to never have to use any of these but as we get older, you never know!

 

Have fun on the trip.

Karen

[Benita]

Don, There is a policy, which you can purchase via http://www.insuremytrip.com which will cover you for preexisting conditions, as long as you buy it before 24 hours after your FINAL payment. It is from HTH. If we book a trip long in advance, that is the company we buy from - we even had to make a claim when I broke my ankle just before a trip and they were prompt payers.

Face it, your condition is a preexisting one, even if it is stable,and insurance companies do their hardest not to pay claims, so why put yourself in the position of having to fight a denial, when you can purchase a policy that will cover your condition? Since you do not buy the coverage until your final payment for the trip, you will not be out the insurance money should you cancel earlier.

[vaitape]

Great thinking Benita. Will check into HTH and thanks for posting your positive experience with them. Much appreciated!

[DrHemlock]

DO NOT trust that your credit card will reimburse you after 60 days of the billing date for money paid to bankrupt companies. Some cards may do so, but they can just as easily refuse under current law regardless of whether services have been rendered.

 

In 2001, Diners Club immediately refunded our cruise fare when Ren went bankrupt despite the fact that I had paid Ren many, many months before. But that's one card -- a top tier card at that -- and it was eight years ago.

 

In 2007, Citibank MasterCard refused to cover my $14K deposit made to a contractor who went belly-up after taking my money but before beginning work on remodeling the kitchen in my house. He managed to string me along with reasons for delay after delay until about six months had passed before finally calling it quits. Citi told me, "Tough luck, buddy. Your 60-day federally-mandated claim period has expired. We don't have to pay you squat." They lost a timely-paying, non-defaulting cardholder that day, but hey, they've still got plenty of the other kind to keep them awake at night.

 

Buy trip insurance. It's cheap compared to the alternative.

[Friscorays]

How was the cruise taxjam?

[Leonid]

I would like some confirmation about how the "Pre-existing condition" thing works. Here's what I understand:

 

I have a heart condition, cardiomyopathy, which is essentially dead heart muscle. No one is sure how it happened, but the cardiologists speculated I had a series of silent heart attacks which caused the damage. At the time I was diagnosed (about 5 years ago), I had an ejection fraction (a measurement of heart function) of 17 (normal is around 65). After 5 years of exercise to tolerance, careful diet and medication (Coreg), my EF is up to 30 and I lead a nearly normal life, although I tire more quickly than others. I also have an implanted defibrillator in case I have heart failure, which is how I discovered this condition in the first place.

 

Obviously, I always buy travel insurance in case something goes wrong, and I especially am concerned about medical transportation or repatriation of remains. But, like everyone else who books as early as 15 months before sailing, and who has had to cancel two cruises before final payment, I don't want to signup and pay for the insurance that early.

 

So, I carefully questioned the agent at insuremytrip.com, and she assured me that any condition that is under control, that is a condition that is entirely controlled by medication and has had no more than routine care by physicians, is not considered a pre-existing condition. In other words, I don't about my heart condition when ordering the insurance. I repeated the question a couple of different ways to be sure we were understanding each other.

 

According to what I understood her to say, a pre-existing condition is a condition that occurs or worsens within within a certain time period before the insurance is purchased. In other words, it is not a stable condition that existed before the coverage was purchased, but a condition that became extant within the period specified in the contract before the insurance is purchased. If the insurance is purchased within a set time of initial payment (for most of us, the time of deposit), any such condition is covered. But, if one waits to purchase the insurance, apparently they feel the only reason you might be purchasing the insurance is to cover a condition that just started to occur. In other words, they assume you would not be booking the trip if you were sick, but if you become sick, you might try to purchase the insurance.

 

I also understood her to say that any medical condition that arose after the insurance was purchased is automatically not a pre-existing condition, and would be covered.

 

According to my understanding, what it boils down to is that if I do not purchase the insurance at the time of initial payment, but purchase it later, and if I have contracted a serious medical condition that prevents me from taking the trip, they will investigate to determine if the condition existed at the time of the insurance purchase. If so, they will not cover it. If the condition arises after the insurance purchase, they will cover it.

 

What it boils down to is that my heart condition is considered stable and under control and is therefore not a pre-existing condtion under the terms of the insurance contract. I believe there is a period of time, perhaps one or two years, during which the condition must be under control. And, as long as I have no medical problems that have cropped up within those limits when I purchase the insurance, I will be covered for anything that occurs later. This coverage is effective even if it is my heart condition that worsens and causes the medical problem.

 

That's how it was explained to me, but it's possible my understanding is flawed.

 

Tripinsurancestore.com offers policies that allow one to purchase them beyond the "14 day period" if one has a pre-existing condition. At least they use to offer them at a higher premium.

[threeedogmedia]

Here are some things that I just learned because we had to cancel our Grand Circle of the Med because of my husband's a-fib and complications to an ablation procedure. If you are planning a trip, buy the insurance within 14 days of your initial deposit and those conditions will be covered. We originally booked this cruise in June 2009 and purchased the insurance within a couple of days.

 

Since we just cancelled our trip, (1 week before the volcano activity that would have made it almost impossible to get to the ship anyway) I called Access America to see when we would be eligible to book another cruise and purchase insurance. They told me that if on the day we purchase the insurance my husband is considered "fit for travel" or "has no travel restrictions" than we can book and be covered. If for any reason, he was still under doctor's orders not to travel until his heart healed from his last procedure, we would be denied coverage. When he gets cleared, I plan on getting an RX from his cardiologist stating that he is now considered healthy enough to travel. That way, there will be no questions later if we ever have to cancel a trip again.

 

We had hoped to be able to take a cruise next year to the fjords of Norway but can't book until such time as he is cleared to travel. Now, there are only a couple of penthouse staterooms available and I don't expect his doctor to clear him for another 4 weeks....... so, I guess we wait until we can travel then try and find an itinerary that we like.

 

We still haven't been reimbursed by Access America though. British Airways is holding up our refund (minus the penalty for cancellation) and until such time as that part of our coverage gets refunded, we're stuck waiting. The only way you can reach that particular department is via fax or email. No phone number at all. I was initially told by BA that our refund would be processed within 7-10 days. It's now been 18 days and no word from them. We cancelled a full week before our scheduled departure date too. Sometimes, no matter what you do $%#$ happens.

Karen