Oh no not the tipping question again

Tipping is becoming a problem. I think that it is largely attributable to employers who wish to underpay their employees and have customers make up the difference.

 

I was astounded when I received a missive from Marriott Hotels recommending that I tip the housekeeping staff. Why should I pay someone for doing their job? What is next...tip the pharmacist, tip the cashier at the grocery store. I am tired of getting restaurant bills where 12 or 15 percent service charge has been added yet there is still a blank line called tip and a recommendation that an additional 15 or 18 percent would be acceptable.

 

We never remove cruise line auto tips and we tip extra for good service above and beyond. But we are not going to tip someone for simply doing their job. IMHO tipping in America is out of control. Businesses have brainwashed us into subsidizing their labor costs.

Like you, we pay the HSC and tip extra to those who we feel give us excellent service on our cruise. I also agree with what you say in regards to businesses expecting customers gratuities to make up the difference for poor wages, and I don't think it's right either, especially auto gratuities and the expectation of another 15%-20%.

But I also can't in good conscience take the hard earned money from stewards, waiters, bartenders, laundry people, busboys, etc. because I don't agree with the employee compensation system that is part of cruising culture. I started out as a room cleaner after high school, and I know the sting of providing excellent service to people and not receiving a gratuity for my hard work. If you think that was greedy, service jobs are often set up with tipping appreciated. Customers aren't obligated, but if certain people keep you running like a race dog giving them personal service, a few bucks is appreciated. I'm a switchboard operator now so no tipping allowed LOL

Long story short I just can't do that to someone else unless the service is downright atrocious, and there have been very few times in my 52 years when I didn't tip appropriately because of bad service.

Lorie

No, you are incorrect. If a passenger removes the HSC a room or MDR steward risks losing his/her job if s/he keeps cash received.

If someone leaves their cabin attendant $25 a day in cash, and the HSC is "on" but on the final day the guest turns HSC "Off" explain to me what happens to that money.

You are adamant in claiming to be privy to the way things are handled. This is a question no one has ever before answered. You would be the first.

Edit: One time I saw a waiter we had out in port. We said hello and made a little chit chat about our daily plans. I handed him a $20 bill and said go have a couple cold ones and lunch on us, thank you. I don't for a second believe he had to do anything with that money other than what he chose to do.

If someone leaves their cabin attendant $25 a day in cash, and the HSC is "on" but on the final day the guest turns HSC "Off" explain to me what happens to that money.

You are adamant in claiming to be privy to the way things are handled. This is a question no one has ever before answered. You would be the first.

Edit: One time I saw a waiter we had out in port. We said hello and made a little chit chat about our daily plans. I handed him a $20 bill and said go have a couple cold ones and lunch on us, thank you. I don't for a second believe he had to do anything with that money other than what he chose to do.

He turns the money in to the pool as he should or he rolls the dice and hopes he is not discovered. He might get away with it once or twice, but in a close crew environment it would not be long before others notice that he always seems to have more money to spend on shore leave than others of equal experience who are drawing from the pool.

So on a longer voyage the crew member just stock piles the cash, or turns it anyways and hopes to get it back at the end. Come on, sniff test, this doesn't pass it. What does HAL have a Fat Tony to come break someones legs if they spent money given to them and then the HSC is removed? They cut back in customer services so that they can micromanage the pockets of their crew? I don't buy it.

As you are adamant that I am wrong. Please cite your authoritative source.

Your explanation does not pass the common sense sniff test. If you have access to documentation which substantiates your claims of a nonsense system now would be a good time to share them, or otherwise just state that you don't know with 100% certainty and don't have any "proof". That's fine too. That's really the most honest answer anyone can give.

That's fine ... because you always pay your HSC, right?

 

Not that it's really your concern, but yes.

Participating in a nonsense system so that workers can earn money is not the same as defending or cheerleading the system and I'm entitled to my own opinions and voice my concerns, as well as defend some other stranger for electing choices that HAL allows (playing within their rules) without the implication that I either do not pay for services or that I would defend any/every one that would choose not to.

Since we are all adults here, let's present the options HAL offers guests. We can have opinions on this or that, but if someone claims something is done with 100% certainty, it certainly bears asking for some proof. Then the OP can know whatever all the facts are and make their own decisions.

One sure thing about tipping that I learned a long time ago ... regardless of what they write on internet forums or what they actually tip, people have to live with whatever decision they make once onboard and look at themselves in the mirror the next morning. After reading these forums for many years, I am now convinced that some people must not like what they see :eek:

We consider the HSC part of the cost of cruising, and we tip extra for personal service. I am not going to short the staff because I feel it is a convoluted system for compensating cruise ship employees. Some people don't have a conscience about this and just consider it their way of doing business. They think others cave in to "tip guilt." I think people who are cheapskates will find any reason they can to save a buck. Maybe like me you notice they find reasons to justify their cheapness so that they can feel okay about themselves.

The OP said that they work too hard for their money to pay the HSC, but they will spend even more on tips they feel are justified. If that money is so dear that they choose not to part with roughly $12 a day, can they really see themselves tipping anyone generously? I think it's just an excuse to take the HSC off, tip little and sporadically and feel okay about it. As the OP is a cleaner themself I feel sorry for the steward who will most likely be judged the harshest, and as such will probably receive little to no tips. Like I said, they get on here and try to justify saving a buck with a list of excuses, but really they are just trying to feel okay by getting someone, anyone, to agree with them about shorting the cruise staff. And I don't. People can take whatever route they want in regards to tips, this "guilt tipper" thinks non-tippers are usually just greedy cheapskates. They're not the only ones working hard for their money, they need to stop using that excuse to justify their need to save a buck. It's not like the rest of us are independently wealthy for cripes sake.

Lorie

Of course there isn't any question. The OP's title indicates that he knows that this will not be favorite topic. From the Urban Dictionary, "troll: one who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument."

You've got that 100% right. The OP knew exactly what they were doing. Start a fight then run. Beautiful. I feel so sorry for hal employees based of some of the replies here.

i write this knowing Many of you will not agree with me. I have been trawling this forum for some time now seeking information and tipping (or not) has had main stage a lot. I am a Aussie and as you all know it is not the norm to pay for something you haven't yet got,although I have done this on two occasions on Group land tours where we had a compulsory tipping.

Even after parting with my hard working money ( and believe me I do work hard I am a cleaner) I still felt like I needed to tip the smiling porter, the laughing waitress, and the most informative tour guide, so I did top extra and happily.

That being said we are a couple and tip as a couple so it is my intention to have all the gratuities removed and tip as I see fit when the service has been more than just a job done, it's high time that if they are not paid well, they damn well should be.

Pretty sure I read somewhere on this forum about a steward who only works for six months because the next six months are funded by his tips, wish I had kept it as a quote, anyhow those are my thoughts

Happy travels:)

Simple answer. Your money, your decision.

Dan

Here is the deal. If the hotel service charge was simply added to the fare upfront, then the service on the ship would not be as good as the crew would have little incentive to go the extra distance. They will be receiving full pay regardless of their individual effort.

 

The HAL service charge ensures that the crew is keenly aware that their pay comes from the passengers, and that there will be repercussions if the service is poor.

 

 

igraf

I have to disagree. The crew work on contract and if well compensated (whether by wage or tips) can earn significantly more than they could in their own country. I'd say that the threat of non-renewal of said contract is a powerful incentive to perform well.

I have sailed with two lines that do not include a standard gratuity charge. The service has been every bit as good as any line I've sailed (including HAL) that does level the charge.

>SNIP< As the OP is a cleaner themself I feel sorry for the steward who will most likely be judged the harshest, and as such will probably receive little to no tips. >SNIP<

 

Lorie

Alternatively, the OP may realize exactly how difficult the work is, and be more appreciative than most cruisers.

My DH and I have physically demanding jobs that involve working with the public, so we are far more inclined to cut service people a lot of slack, and be more than normally appreciative.

Thought experiment: If you were trying to get people to dislike Australians, would there be a better way than this?

So on a longer voyage the crew member just stock piles the cash, or turns it anyways and hopes to get it back at the end.

If you have access to documentation which substantiates your claims of a nonsense system now would be a good time to share them,

Since we are all adults here, let's present the options HAL offers guests.

"If our service exceeds or fails to meet your expectations, you are free to adjust this amount at the end of each segment and/or voyage."

To simply refuse to pay it after having received adequate services is stealing.

sorry I had the wrong title on my post and I am NOT a Troll, I am new to this I have other postings where I asked questions or offered comments I did not realise how upset some of you could get, maybe you are all brainwashed.

My gratuities add up to $160 , I have stayed in many hotels and have never tipped that much after a weeks stay.

I thought a forum was where you could discuss matters without people being abrasive and all I wanted were opinions, I certainly got some,thank you all who contributed.

Amen to that and Happy Travels

Yet you said in your first post that you've been reading the boards for a while and know that this is a hot issue. Cal me confused.

I doubt that very many people leave cash each day for their cabin steward, so he would have little problem setting it aside until he knows for sure if he can keep it.

 

Likewise I say to you that if you have 100% proof that the vast majority of long-time posters on this forum are wrong this would be a good time to produce it.

The HSC is not an "option", it is a moral obligation to pay for services you have received. The HAL site states

"If our service exceeds or fails to meet your expectations, you are free to adjust this amount at the end of each segment and/or voyage."

To simply refuse to pay it after having received adequate services is stealing.

1. That's an absurd position. It just is. That it should be no big deal for someone to set aside cash and not have the ability to use it as they wish? That if they get very little cash it's even easier to set it aside? So HAL holds its employees hostages to their own cash to end of a voyage? That's certainly a new one for cruise critic.

2. I've yet to see anyone provide any proof whatsoever of the claims they make of a system that doesn't make sense. Not everything in life must make sense, true, but you claim one thing, I say it doesn't make sense show me proof, and all you do is say others on the forum have been posting a long time. Okay, and? You claim to know exactly how it works. How do you know that? Like I said, if you aren't 100% sure, just say you're not 100% sure. I still think that's the most honest answer to the topic. I'm not 100% sure, but I know if something passes a sniff test or not. And if it doesn't, I question it. There's nothing wrong with asking questions to get down to the facts.

3. I'm not saying right or wrong, all I am saying is as long as *HAL* decides it is an option for a guest to stay opted in or to ask to opt out, it is, by definition, an option. Choose one way, or the other way. Telling someone it is mandatory is not providing them with facts on which to make a decision. You may not like that decision in the end, but if you're going to tell someone what to do, frame it as an opinion and not a fact.

I always considered a service charge a charge for services. I find HAL services charges to be a downright bargain for services received. But a "moral obligation"? That is your opinion, not HAL's corporate position.

sorry I had the wrong title on my post and I am NOT a Troll, I am new to this I have other postings where I asked questions or offered comments I did not realise how upset some of you could get, maybe you are all brainwashed.

My gratuities add up to $160 , I have stayed in many hotels and have never tipped that much after a weeks stay.

I thought a forum was where you could discuss matters without people being abrasive and all I wanted were opinions, I certainly got some,thank you all who contributed.

Amen to that and Happy Travels

Ultimately your retain the choice to do whatever you feel is proper given the services you receive. That's the bottom line.

1. That's an absurd position. It just is. That it should be no big deal for someone to set aside cash and not have the ability to use it as they wish? That if they get very little cash it's even easier to set it aside? So HAL holds its employees hostages to their own cash to end of a voyage? That's certainly a new one for cruise critic.

 

2. I've yet to see anyone provide any proof whatsoever of the claims they make of a system that doesn't make sense. Not everything in life must make sense, true, but you claim one thing, I say it doesn't make sense show me proof, and all you do is say others on the forum have been posting a long time. Okay, and? You claim to know exactly how it works. How do you know that? Like I said, if you aren't 100% sure, just say you're not 100% sure. I still think that's the most honest answer to the topic. I'm not 100% sure, but I know if something passes a sniff test or not. And if it doesn't, I question it. There's nothing wrong with asking questions to get down to the facts.

 

3. I'm not saying right or wrong, all I am saying is as long as *HAL* decides it is an option for a guest to stay opted in or to ask to opt out, it is, by definition, an option. Choose one way, or the other way. Telling someone it is mandatory is not providing them with facts on which to make a decision. You may not like that decision in the end, but if you're going to tell someone what to do, frame it as an opinion and not a fact.

 

I always considered a service charge a charge for services. I find HAL services charges to be a downright bargain for services received. But a "moral obligation"? That is your opinion, not HAL's corporate position.

I have on many occasions asked about removing/keeping the hsc and additional tips. I have also asked on princess and gotten the same answer. If the hsc is removed they must turn in the tips according to employees that I have asked. I've been on many hal cruises. I find it's particularly helpful to have sailed on a hal ship before to be able to tell how things are run. I couldn't begin to tell you how things work on RC as I've never sailed them so how could I possibly know.

My gratuities add up to $160 ,

Thought experiment: If you were trying to get people to dislike Australians, would there be a better way than this?

Nah - drink a can of Fosters and then think about the nation that inflicted that garbage on the world.:rolleyes:

I thought this might be interesting to some who are following this thread.

This is from the "House Rules" for HAL employees:

TIPPING NOT REQUIRED POLICY

All ships have the Rewards for Excellence (RfE) Plan which

consists of Hotel Service Charges and Beverage Service

Charges. If a guest chooses to adjust out of the RfE Plan

and instead provide cash tips to an employee, the employee

is required to turn in this cash to their Department Head

so the money can be added to the RfE plan. Any “tips”

received above and beyond the guests standard amount

may be kept by the crewmember.

Of course no one knows whether a crew member will actually hand in any cash tips they receive from a passenger who has removed the HSC.

Michele

I tip or not tip what I want.

If I want to remove the HSC and give only to the staff that I feel earned it I will.

If I want to leave the HSC and give more to the staff that I feel deserve it, I will.

My choice, my money. I won't be browbeaten, shamed or embarrassed into doing what someone else feels it is what I should do.

I will say, I do reward for services received and am happy to do so.

Dan

I tip or not tip what I want.

 

If I want to remove the HSC and give only to the staff that I feel earned it I will.

 

If I want to leave the HSC and give more to the staff that I feel deserve it, I will.

 

My choice, my money. I won't be browbeaten, shamed or embarrassed into doing what someone else feels it is what I should do.

 

I will say, I do reward for services received and am happy to do so.

 

Dan

I do think HAL ought to be more up front about the impact of removing the HSC and then tipping out of hand. We can debate all we want whether or not it ought to be that way but the requirement that the crew member surrender such tips should be somehow published or better known.

Why are we feeding the troll?

Elorac123, what happened in the last 13 days since on 4/10/2015 you wrote the following: :confused::confused:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=46218686#post46218686

No, your gratuities add up to $0 if you so choose. Your Hotel Service Charge for services rendered will be $160.

👀👀

My literature says gratuities

Quote:

Originally Posted by POA1

Thought experiment: If you were trying to get people to dislike Australians, would there be a better way than this?

Nah - drink a can of Fosters and then think about the nation that inflicted that garbage on the world.

👀👀👀👀👀

Proud to be Aussie, ashamed of the Fosters, my tipple is Wild Turkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elorac123

Not trying to prove anything, Did you miss the part that said I am a cleaner I too work hard for my holiday and at this stage am not made to feel very welcome by you!

You have no idea how much or who I intend to tip, in fact it could be more than the 'automatic' tipping, my point IS I would like to be in charge of my own finances and not be dictated to.

And as a by the way, we in Australia pay much more than you do for the same cruise ( nothing to do with the exchange rates)

Happy travels.

.

Don't get me wrong - I have been to Australia and I love the Australian tipping model. It is wonderful not having to try to figure out whom and how much to tip.

But regardless, did you ever think that the reason that Australians are charged more is that they tend to follow the Australian tipping model where it is not appropriate and their failure to conform to local tipping customs means that they have to be charged more for their failure to tip.

👀👀👀👀👀

No I never thought about that but if that is the case (and I doubt it ) I stand firm.

Originally Posted by taxmantoo

One sure thing about tipping that I learned a long time ago ... regardless of what they write on internet forums or what they actually tip, people have to live with whatever decision they make once onboard and look at themselves in the mirror the next morning. After reading these forums for many years, I am now convinced that some people must not like what they see

We consider the HSC part of the cost of cruising, and we tip extra for personal service. I am not going to short the staff because I feel it is a convoluted system for compensating cruise ship employees. Some people don't have a conscience about this and just consider it their way of doing business. They think others cave in to "tip guilt." I think people who are cheapskates will find any reason they can to save a buck. Maybe like me you notice they find reasons to justify their cheapness so that they can feel okay about themselves.

The OP said that they work too hard for their money to pay the HSC, but they will spend even more on tips they feel are justified. If that money is so dear that they choose not to part with roughly $12 a day, can they really see themselves tipping anyone generously? I think it's just an excuse to take the HSC off, tip little and sporadically and feel okay about it. As the OP is a cleaner themself I feel sorry for the steward who will most likely be judged the harshest, and as such will probably receive little to no tips. Like I said, they get on here and try to justify saving a buck with a list of excuses, but really they are just trying to feel okay by getting someone, anyone, to agree with them about shorting the cruise staff. And I don't. People can take whatever route they want in regards to tips, this "guilt tipper" thinks non-tippers are usually just greedy cheapskates. They're not the only ones working hard for their money, they need to stop using that excuse to justify their need to save a buck. It's not like the rest of us are independently wealthy for cripes sake.

👀👀👀👀👀👀

Let me correct the gender I am very female.I am not using removing gratuities as a excuse, if you would care to look all my posts, not just this thread you will see that I did intend to pay this before I started to read other people's comments, I Asked how do I prepay?

I will not judge the person who cleans my room harshly, in fact I gave often give the room maids a day off telling them not to worry about it today, or no need to return to turn down the bed.Good God people on here whining about their bed not being turned down.

Maxwell:

I think I can find a thread of fact on this issue. HAL, or any other line, could solve the problem by putting the HSC into the price of the cruise. Of course, if each person shows $80.50 higher for a 7 day cruise, the marketing suffers.

Under that system, passengers could be told that no gratuities are necessary but are not prohibited. We would eliminate the darker side of human nature at least in the area of not shorting the crew. HAL may not be able to control line jumpers, lounge chair hoggers, the guy that picks all of the shrimp out of the shrimp and broccoli, or the people that ignore formal night requirements, but why not just add the "gratuity" into the cruise price? Wouldn't it end this debate?

That way, the money should be better for the crew since no one gets to opt out....and cruise prices may be better for the rest of us.

👀👀👀👀👀👀

If I want to take a particular holiday I pay the price, if it was $80 dearer than I anticipated I still would book it. in fact I booked this holiday ( it's not just a cruise ) knowing we probably would be paying a lot more in the end because of the fall in our dollar.

So having said that your idea and many others I note of adding it on would be the only way to fix this bone of contention.

I thought I could end this thread by saying in one of my former posts "Amen " but you all seem to be enjoying yourselves blowing your own trumpets about how many dollars you tip and how many cruises you gave been on so carry on I will not be responding to this or any other thread you have effectively chased away a newcomer.

Well done

Because everyone likes a brouhaha.:p