HAL strategy wrong? Go upmarket, better than going down market?

[Wakepatrol]

While some things have changed a lot, along with that change, costs have also changed. Back in the day, cruising was for the elite or well off. Ordinary folks couldn't afford to cruise HAL or Cunard. I STILL CAN"T AFFORD CUNARD!:eek:

 

The cruiselines have had to change their offerings as the client demands changed. Folks today want a more relaxed atmosphere. A lot don't even want to dress up for dinner. And they want amusement park offerings. If the cruiselines don't change they will definitely go under.

 

I think HAL does a good job of trying to walk a tightrope. I like the size of their smaller ships (no behemoths for me). I enjoy formal nights (which HAL does still have). I think their ships are understated elegance. They remain my cruiseline of choice if they have my itinerary, that's who I sail with.

 

 

There are plenty of cruise lines that offers these options those that want these can gladly book on them.

[dan1618]

the so called good old days....I was young & my family took cruises often since the 1960's out of NYC. WE could choose from many lines - some great some not so...our favorites were the Italian & Home Lines and Holland America.

 

Back then the food & service was 4 star and passengers rose to the occasion in every way. It was an elegant experience - start to finish. We never brought on liquor - we had cockatils, wine w/ dinner and danced & drank in the nite clubs almost every evening - we were not such great partiers but the entertainment was that great. One nite on the Rotterdam V Shirley Bassey had the place going crazy -singing , dancing...the sun was coming up when we headed back to our staterooms still in gowns & black tie.

 

Through the 1980's we continued to sail w/ HAL even after Carnivire took over. From the start the crew & officers were not happy. And it wasn't just HAL = Cunard w/ the beloved QE2 was being short changed left & right. Not only was service levels cut & food offerings comprimised but maintainence was not kept up to the levels the ships necessitated. New ships just don't magically appear in no time & costs must be met.....interesting enough CCL has recently announced a multi million dollar program dedicated to ships maintainence & yet are backing away from the Costa Concordia Captain saying CCL is not responsible for their captains actions!

 

Some people say w/o CCL $$$ some of these lines would not be in existance today...well I say I would of rather seen them go w/ some dignity than have CCL take control.

 

The last time I was on a HAL ship was 3 years ago on the NYC - Bermuda run on the Veendam. I can't count the # of times I've done this trip over the years,,,docking in FRont St is wonderful...Bermuda is a gem. The ship was so disappointing....worn soft goods, bad entertainment, the aft pool removed so additional cabins could be put in, the diningroom ceiling had netting placed over it because the nurano glass fixtures were falling.....maintainance!!!!!! We tend to ead ashore a great deal to experience local food - but we were so disappointed in the quallity of the food onboard we avoided it at any cost. Staff use to be 1 for every 2 passengers - w/ CCL reductions the staff neeed roller blades to keep up.

 

The year before I took a Transatlantic on the Prinsendam - a wonderful engineering design...tehn too the shortage of staff & lack of quality in food onboard was a disappointment.

 

So we do not sail as often as we did before - yes the rates are ridiculouly low - you get what you pay for...we are taking more land vacations now & avoid CCL lines & ships at all costs.....

 

so those of you that do enjoy what you are experiencing onboard CCL ships - fine - but please know you have no idea what people like myself are talking about and why CCL is not a good thing in our books.

 

Nicely said, Thurston H. III

[iancal]

If you shop around we find that the mass market cruise lines, including HAL, provide excellent value for money. Yes, they are all cutting corners but the value remains high. They still offer good products but lack some of the attributes of the past. And yes, we would be willing to pay a little more for less corner cutting but that does not seem to be what this particular market segment wants.

 

The one thing that we will not do is pay premium dollars for a mass market line-any line. Our attitude is that if we have to pay premium prices then we should select a cruise line that truly offers a premium product.

 

A premium 'environment' without the attributes of a premium cruise line does not cut it for us. But we can travel any time-we do not have a requirement to book months in advance and we can take advantage of specials within the cancellation window. This can make a significant difference

[NickCDN]

If you shop around we find that the mass market cruise lines, including HAL, provide excellent value for money. Yes, they are all cutting corners but the value remains high. They still offer good products but lack some of the attributes of the past. And yes, we would be willing to pay a little more for less corner cutting but that does not seem to be what this particular market segment wants.

 

The one thing that we will not do is pay premium dollars for a mass market line-any line. Our attitude is that if we have to pay premium prices then we should select a cruise line that truly offers a premium product.

 

A premium 'environment' without the attributes of a premium cruise line does not cut it for us. But we can travel any time-we do not have a requirement to book months in advance and we can take advantage of specials within the cancellation window. This can make a significant difference

 

I agree 100%. We have now paid a 'premium' for HAL twice. the first cruise on Nieuw Amsterdam is what I would consider a 'premium' experience. My recent cruise on the Zuiderdam.... not so.

[keithm]

While some things have changed a lot, along with that change, costs have also changed. Back in the day, cruising was for the elite or well off. Ordinary folks couldn't afford to cruise HAL or Cunard. I STILL CAN"T AFFORD CUNARD!:eek:

 

The cruiselines have had to change their offerings as the client demands changed. Folks today want a more relaxed atmosphere. A lot don't even want to dress up for dinner. And they want amusement park offerings. If the cruiselines don't change they will definitely go under.

 

I think HAL does a good job of trying to walk a tightrope. I like the size of their smaller ships (no behemoths for me). I enjoy formal nights (which HAL does still have). I think their ships are understated elegance. They remain my cruiseline of choice if they have my itinerary, that's who I sail with.

actually, I've found Cunard to be frequently cheaper than HAL. You'll find room prices are surprisingly similar. That being said, I only am able to travel in the winter(we have a catering company)as Spring/Summer/Fall are the busy time for us. Cunard has now pretty much abandoned the Caribbean to other lines. We also like the formality of "Ocean Liner" travel(Cunard's schtick)Hal still offers formal nights, but people seem to be "dressing down" more now a days. At least Cunard pretty much sticks to it's dresscode(we pax insist on it)I'm now looking at HAL/Celebrity & Oceania(which is more informal,but has great food)as potential replacements for Cunard.

[Wakepatrol]

actually, I've found Cunard to be frequently cheaper than HAL. You'll find room prices are surprisingly similar. That being said, I only am able to travel in the winter(we have a catering company)as Spring/Summer/Fall are the busy time for us. Cunard has now pretty much abandoned the Caribbean to other lines. We also like the formality of "Ocean Liner" travel(Cunard's schtick)Hal still offers formal nights, but people seem to be "dressing down" more now a days. At least Cunard pretty much sticks to it's dresscode(we pax insist on it)I'm now looking at HAL/Celebrity & Oceania(which is more informal,but has great food)as potential replacements for Cunard.

 

 

I wonder how the crocs and tracksuit brigade hasn't penetrated this,with their "Times Are A Changing" chant:confused:

[iancal]

I think that the big difference is that Cunard knows exactly who their target market is and gears all of their efforts toward that market.

 

Oceania does exactly the same, but targets a different market.

 

HAL is trying to target the entire mass market while at the same time trying to hold on to the premium smaller ship market. The result is a cruise line that has a very mixed marketing message, one that provides greatly varying products based on the ship, and a cruise line that is probably unsure of what it wants to be. They have a great product and no doubt the direction/messaging will become clear at some point.

Edited April 24, 2013 by iancal

[lovetocruise2020]

We would happily pay more to get a more premium experience on HAL...

 

That being said, we have stopped paying retail for suites, (if we get a upsell fine, but not counting on it) because the value is not there and the decline for us is very evident.

 

NCL has it right, the Haven guests pay much more and get much more.

 

If I am paying for a suite, I expect more. And I would happily pay, if I knew that I would get what I was paying for...

 

Therefore, we are doing VD cabins in the future. HAL is a great value in the standard cabins, in suites, they just do not stack up...

[lovetocruise2020]

I think that the big difference is that Cunard knows exactly who their target market is and gears all of their efforts toward that market.

 

Oceania does exactly the same, but targets a different market.

 

HAL is trying to target the entire mass market while at the same time trying to hold on to the premium smaller ship market. The result is a cruise line that has a very mixed marketing message, one that provides greatly varying products based on the ship, and a cruise line that is probably unsure of what it wants to be. They have a great product and no doubt the direction/messaging will become clear at some point.

 

HAL is having an idendity crisis.

We would love to sail Cunard if the dates worked!!!

Edited April 24, 2013 by surfergirle

[sail7seas]

We would happily pay more to get a more premium experience on HAL...

 

That being said, we have stopped paying retail for suites, (if we get a upsell fine, but not counting on it) because the value is not there and the decline for us is very evident.

 

NCL has it right, the Haven guests pay much more and get much more.

 

If I am paying for a suite, I expect more. And I would happily pay, if I knew that I would get what I was paying for...

 

Therefore, we are doing VD cabins in the future. HAL is a great value in the standard cabins, in suites, they just do not stack up...

 

 

You are smart. You get it.

 

We have sailed in those Suites since they first started having them in the "S" Ships 20 or so years ago.

 

For those of us who know they will not be happy in a "VD".........

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2013 by sail7seas

[Sage]

We would happily pay more to get more. I miss the old HAL, and I fear that we may find that they are no longer worth the price, as the service and benefits of the suites and PS are now offered to others who have reached certain mariner levels or buy the suite packages for their lesser cabins. I know that I am dreaming here, but would't it be nice to offer the amenities that used to be offered, service, incredible food, entertainment, activities on a few ships at a higher price and see what happens? I would also be willing to pay more for all inclusive, dress codes and more serving staff.

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

Some good points...

[localady]

Staffing cuts are evident just upon observation.

We always sit at the same table on various ships and have for years.

We know how many dining stewards and service areas used to be busily serving in past years. The same section, same tables today have fewer people doing the work. They work as hard as they can but there are not enough of them.

 

 

For years we discussed how low can you go as far as crew size.

 

Judging by the stress I witnessed in the crew on the last few cruises I have taken, they are at, or past, their saturation point.

Dining is not an enjoyable experience when your waitstaff is obviously stressed.

 

Crew size (at least in hospitality) has hit rock bottom Seattle. This is as low as you can go.

Edited April 24, 2013 by localady

[Rotterdam]

here's some posts from people on a current cruise on Seabourn Sojourn:

 

"We are on day four of this cruise. We have noted a few changes on board since our last Seabourn cruise. The staff are as friendly as ever and the overall feel of the ship is great. Food is excellent, unfortunately the choice of wines on the free list has been reduced somewhat. There are no Argentinian, Chilean or Australian reds available which to me is a big minus. The sommelier told me that he was expecting a large uplift in Rome, so we see if there any improvement after that.

There also seems to be a smaller number of wait staff in the main dining room for dinner and consequently the service is a little slower than previous cruises.

 

And -

 

Won2go - I am on this cruise as well. We have been having a good time. It's hard for me to imagine not having a good time on vacation.

 

I have noticed what you and Prunella have commented on about the MDR. They are understaffed, many of the staff seem very green and the service has been very slow. I don't mind, because I really don't have anything else to do anyways, but I can get very tipsy with all this time in between courses and unlimited wine. If you think things are bad in the MDR at dinner, please avoid at all costs during lunch and especially breakfast. Hardly any wait staff at all, 2 hours for breakfast seems glacial to me. Also at breakfast, I feel like I have somewhere else to be, which makes the wait all the more painful.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Rotterdam

[kazu]

here's some posts from people on a current cruise on Seabourn Sojourn:

 

"We are on day four of this cruise. We have noted a few changes on board since our last Seabourn cruise. The staff are as friendly as ever and the overall feel of the ship is great. Food is excellent, unfortunately the choice of wines on the free list has been reduced somewhat. There are no Argentinian, Chilean or Australian reds available which to me is a big minus. The sommelier told me that he was expecting a large uplift in Rome, so we see if there any improvement after that.

There also seems to be a smaller number of wait staff in the main dining room for dinner and consequently the service is a little slower than previous cruises.

 

And -

 

Won2go - I am on this cruise as well. We have been having a good time. It's hard for me to imagine not having a good time on vacation.

 

I have noticed what you and Prunella have commented on about the MDR. They are understaffed, many of the staff seem very green and the service has been very slow. I don't mind, because I really don't have anything else to do anyways, but I can get very tipsy with all this time in between courses and unlimited wine. If you think things are bad in the MDR at dinner, please avoid at all costs during lunch and especially breakfast. Hardly any wait staff at all, 2 hours for breakfast seems glacial to me. Also at breakfast, I feel like I have somewhere else to be, which makes the wait all the more painful.

 

Interesting - when we were on the Westerdam we had magnificent dining room service - we could have literally been out in 1 and 1/2 hours if we chose. Our dining room stewards and wine steward were magnificent.

 

The same experience on the Prinsendam (only better). the Maasdam and Nieuw Amsterdam both had really slow service and what I considered inexperienced staff.

 

I'm looking forward to our cruise again on the Prinsendam and hoping that the service is what we experienced in 2011.

 

You'll all know - one way or the other. LOL:D

[Swice]

I wonder how the crocs and tracksuit brigade hasn't penetrated this,with their "Times Are A Changing" chant:confused:

 

Devoted HAL family (my wife and I are in our 40's).

 

On our very first HAL cruise about 13 years ago, we did a cruise tour in Alaska. Actually our "land tour" was first. To make a long story short-- our HAL provided hotel sent our luggage on a Carnival cruise while we were touring Denali. When it was time to board our ship, I had my purple and teal track suit (remember the old NBA Charlotte Hornets?) and a sweatshirt and jeans. I wore my track suit to the captain's dinner. You should have seen the looks we got!!!!! It proved to be a great ice breaker. We were the stars of the ship once HAL picked up our luggage at a port and we were actually wearing our formal clothes.

 

We prefer the formal nights-- but please don't judge the track suits. ;-)

[Rotterdam]

In times gone by when we saw someone casually dressed(this is pre jogging suits) we believed their luggage was lost....sometimes women would get together & help the women get an outfit together for formal nites - now unfortunately people feel its ok to be a slob at all times no matter the occasion...put out the trash, go to mall, captains night - those sweat suits go everywhere & like plastic bags - never seem to decompose(and obviously many people do not look in mirrors)....yikes!!!!\\

 

Devoted HAL family (my wife and I are in our 40's).

 

On our very first HAL cruise about 13 years ago, we did a cruise tour in Alaska. Actually our "land tour" was first. To make a long story short-- our HAL provided hotel sent our luggage on a Carnival cruise while we were touring Denali. When it was time to board our ship, I had my purple and teal track suit (remember the old NBA Charlotte Hornets?) and a sweatshirt and jeans. I wore my track suit to the captain's dinner. You should have seen the looks we got!!!!! It proved to be a great ice breaker. We were the stars of the ship once HAL picked up our luggage at a port and we were actually wearing our formal clothes.

 

We prefer the formal nights-- but please don't judge the track suits. ;-)

[keithm]

In times gone by when we saw someone casually dressed(this is pre jogging suits) we believed their luggage was lost....sometimes women would get together & help the women get an outfit together for formal nites - now unfortunately people feel its ok to be a slob at all times no matter the occasion...put out the trash, go to mall, captains night - those sweat suits go everywhere & like plastic bags - never seem to decompose(and obviously many people do not look in mirrors)....yikes!!!!\\

Thanks. Totally agree. That's what we like about Cunard. Their thing is staying formal. If you don't like formal, don't dress like you're going to a trailer trash jamboree! A nice shirt,nice khakis & decent shoes.

[swedish weave]

Thanks. Totally agree. That's what we like about Cunard. Their thing is staying formal. If you don't like formal, don't dress like you're going to a trailer trash jamboree! A nice shirt,nice khakis & decent shoes.

 

That is what we like about NCL. We don't see the arrogance and insults over what people wear.

[Seago2]

That is what we like about NCL. We don't see the arrogance and insults over what people wear.

 

Zing! I miss NCL.

[Ians Grandma]

The arrogance and insults are definitely not what I consider "classy".

[dan1618]

The arrogance and insults are definitely not what I consider "classy".

 

I find it somewhat ironic that the same person who cringes at track suits likes the idea of men in Speedos. Let's see -- someone in the MDR in a track suit -- or a 60 year old in a Speedo -- which is gonna kill more appetites???!!! :eek:

 

It really has nothing to do with anyone else. Some folks have to have others to look down on or they shrivel up into nothing. I have no horse in this race. I dress formally for formal nights, and dress "business casual" all the rest of the time. That said, I would far rather be seated with some of Rotterdam's "trailer trash" that might actually have a heart and be decent people underneath it all, than be seated with a bunch of impeccably dressed, yet classless people, who have nothing better to do than look down on those who aren't like them. For my dollar, I hope they do give up on HAL. I'd rather have nice people who aren't used to dressing formally than "refined" people with a superiority complex. Likeable people make for a much better cruise atmosphere than well dressed boars.

 

ALL people deserve to be treated with respect. I also find it ironic that someone who has been on the receiving end of undeserved disrespect and condescension is condescending to others.

Edited April 28, 2013 by dan1618
Addition

[startwin]

I find it somewhat ironic that the same person who cringes at track suits likes the idea of men in Speedos. Let's see -- someone in the MDR in a track suit -- or a 60 year old in a Speedo -- which is gonna kill more appetites???!!! :eek:

 

It really has nothing to do with anyone else. Some folks have to have others to look down on or they shrivel up into nothing. I have no horse in this race. I dress formally for formal nights, and dress "business casual" all the rest of the time. That said, I would far rather be seated with some of Rotterdam's "trailer trash" that might actually have a heart and be decent people underneath it all, than be seated with a bunch of impeccably dressed, yet classless people, who have nothing better to do than look down on those who aren't like them. For my dollar, I hope they do give up on HAL. I'd rather have nice people who aren't used to dressing formally than "refined" people with a superiority complex. Likeable people make for a much better cruise atmosphere than well dressed boars.

 

ALL people deserve to be treated with respect. I also find it ironic that someone who has been on the receiving end of undeserved disrespect and condescension is condescending to others.

 

 

Bingo!:D Please visit more often;)

[arewethereyet]

ALL people deserve to be treated with respect.

Until they prove otherwise. That is one rule I live by. You start at 100% on the respect scale (unmet). The rest is up to you.

[Ians Grandma]

I find it somewhat ironic that the same person who cringes at track suits likes the idea of men in Speedos. Let's see -- someone in the MDR in a track suit -- or a 60 year old in a Speedo -- which is gonna kill more appetites???!!! :eek:

 

It really has nothing to do with anyone else. Some folks have to have others to look down on or they shrivel up into nothing. I have no horse in this race. I dress formally for formal nights, and dress "business casual" all the rest of the time. That said, I would far rather be seated with some of Rotterdam's "trailer trash" that might actually have a heart and be decent people underneath it all, than be seated with a bunch of impeccably dressed, yet classless people, who have nothing better to do than look down on those who aren't like them. For my dollar, I hope they do give up on HAL. I'd rather have nice people who aren't used to dressing formally than "refined" people with a superiority complex. Likeable people make for a much better cruise atmosphere than well dressed boars.

 

ALL people deserve to be treated with respect. I also find it ironic that someone who has been on the receiving end of undeserved disrespect and condescension is condescending to others.

I am not sure if you are referring to me...was I condescending? I really don't know??