Nieuw-Amsterdam denied entry Casablanca port.

[Boytjie]

Really, whether Morocco's laws on homosexuality are good or evil, who was the big brain that made the decision to visit a place where this particular group clearly would not be welcome?

 

A few years ago my partner and I, with his parents and other relatives, visited China. We stayed with one of his uncles. Maybe I should not have gone because we might not have been welcome in a out-of-the-tourist past of the country? Actually, it was there in China that my partner's mother was given a sit-down talk by his aunts regarding the way she was treating me. It was an eyeopener for sure.

[pmacher61]

As the Bible says, take the log out of your own eye before you attempt to remove the cinder from another's. Matthew 7:3

 

American culture can look strange to those from the outside looking in too: http://www.scrippsnews.com/content/ambrose-marriage-solution-many-social-problems

I don't disagree that American culture may not only look strange to foreigners, but it may contain certain negative elements not found in other cultures. However, that is not relevant to the point I was making. The point is that we can not excuse injustice by invoking ethical relativism beyond certain indisputable moral boundaries. In Morocco, a convicted rapist may avoid all penalty by offering to marry the victim. Are you okay with that? Do you condone imprisonment for homosexual acts between consenting adults?

To suggest, as you do, that those who address these issues are hypocritical or unaware of their own shortcomings is sophistry. The log is out of my eye as concerns these matters. Is it out of yours? You have not answered the questions from above.

[pmacher61]

There are lots of laws in the various US states that I am repulsed by, and there are activities allowed that I think should be outlawed. Nevertheless, when in Rome...

The adage "When in Rome, do as the Romans" means to know the rules, not necessarily to agree with them. After all, the Romans threw Christians to the lions, an act which I would decline to do if I had free will. My point is only that we should not excuse the behavior of Moroccan officials in discriminating against gay people, those aboard the Nieuw Amsterdam or those who live in Morocco. Moreover, in my opinion (which should be obvious by now) it would be immoral not to protest this conduct.

[pmacher61]

It would be quite a burden to survey all the laws on the books before choosing to visit another country, including walking out your own front door right here in America when you see some of the laws still on the books here. People are better for holidays off going where they are welcomed, and stay away from where they are not.

Who is talking about surveying all laws? This thread is about the official Moroccan government denial of a ship full of homosexuals from entering into Morocco for a day. Better to stay focused on the issue at hand. And in that regard, which people would be better off? Certainly not the Moroccan gays who might continue to suffer discrimination in the absence of criticism from others in the world community that could lead to an amelioration of their condition.

I am reminded of something attributed Edwin Louis Cole:

Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men.

 

 

 

[SwissMyst]

......

I am reminded of something attributed Edwin Louis Cole:

Reasonable men adapt to the world around them; unreasonable men make the world adapt to them. The world is changed by unreasonable men.

 

 

Men? How quaint.

[SwissMyst]

I don't disagree that American culture may not only look strange to foreigners, but it may contain certain negative elements not found in other cultures. However, that is not relevant to the point I was making. The point is that we can not excuse injustice by invoking ethical relativism beyond certain indisputable moral boundaries. In Morocco, a convicted rapist may avoid all penalty by offering to marry the victim. Are you okay with that? Do you condone imprisonment for homosexual acts between consenting adults?

To suggest, as you do, that those who address these issues are hypocritical or unaware of their own shortcomings is sophistry. The log is out of my eye as concerns these matters. Is it out of yours? You have not answered the questions from above.

 

In America it was only recently laws were taken off the books that a husband cannot be convicted of the rape of his wife. We ignore statutory rape laws every day in this country. Point being there are often large disconnects between the laws on the books and their actual practice, let alone enforcement. It think it is best to get more than a cartoon view of the Islamic world and "sharia" law. I took a course in Islamic Constitutional Law at the University of Malaya back in the 1980's -it opened my eyes when this topic was approached with scholarly detachment.

 

Take a look at the documentary "Divorce Iranian Style" you will find another interesting insight into the application of marriage laws in Islamic countries that honor the sharia traditions for domestic matters. Be sure to watch it all the way to the end for the full effect of what you thought you knew and how it gets practiced even in their courts of law: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7607777740102230188

[dakrewser]

The adage "When in Rome, do as the Romans" means to know the rules, not necessarily to agree with them. After all, the Romans threw Christians to the lions, an act which I would decline to do if I had free will. My point is only that we should not excuse the behavior of Moroccan officials in discriminating against gay people, those aboard the Nieuw Amsterdam or those who live in Morocco. Moreover, in my opinion (which should be obvious by now) it would be immoral not to protest this conduct.

 

And what other conduct will you protest? Will you only visit places whose every law you condone? Should I choose to do that I'd spend the rest of my life on a one-man ship at sea, because there is no lace on earth whose every law I condone.

 

Nor is it for me to say what is right for the people of another place to consider lawful or unlawful. It is for the citizens f that place to create the legal environment that's best for them, at least as they see it.

 

To get back to the original issue, though, the Moroccan authorities might have been quite willing to let the ship dock until RSVP started publicizing the fact that their GLBT pax would be swooping down on the Hassan II Mosque as the ""the first gay cruise to visit Casablanca." I'd imagine that Vatican City would react the same way if RSVP promoted an All-Gay trip to St. Peter's Basilica.

[kazu]

And what other conduct will you protest? Will you only visit places whose every law you condone? Should I choose to do that I'd spend the rest of my life on a one-man ship at sea, because there is no lace on earth whose every law I condone.

 

Nor is it for me to say what is right for the people of another place to consider lawful or unlawful. It is for the citizens f that place to create the legal environment that's best for them, at least as they see it.

 

To get back to the original issue, though, the Moroccan authorities might have been quite willing to let the ship dock until RSVP started publicizing the fact that their GLBT pax would be swooping down on the Hassan II Mosque as the ""the first gay cruise to visit Casablanca." I'd imagine that Vatican City would react the same way if RSVP promoted an All-Gay trip to St. Peter's Basilica.[/quote]

 

The bold and underline is mine - I watched the ad - there was nothing here about that - it was simply listed as a port of call. that would be expected IMO:) I still maintain that the port they ended up with was a better choice with much more options that Casablanca. While we liked Casablanca it was probably one of the least favourite stops on our cruise (thankfully we went to Rabat)

 

The bottom line is they were denied the port:( While I understand the reasons from their cultural points of view I don't think it's right. And by the way, I have seen lots of gays at St. Peter's Basilica. I didn't see anyone objecting or stopping them. ;)

[Boytjie]

To get back to the original issue, though, the Moroccan authorities might have been quite willing to let the ship dock until RSVP started publicizing the fact that their GLBT pax would be swooping down on the Hassan II Mosque as the ""the first gay cruise to visit Casablanca." I'd imagine that Vatican City would react the same way if RSVP promoted an All-Gay trip to St. Peter's Basilica.

 

Hmm, I have never seen an RSVP ad that talked about "swooping down" anywhere. And I have been on a few RSVP cruise. ;)

 

FYI last year's RSVP Med cruise called on Civitavecchia two days after it was in Tunis. :D

 

As for excursions, most of the excursions on an RSVP cruise are the same as the cruise lines usual excursions. I guess gay charters cannot list potential highlights to visit in its ports of call, lest it be seen as an invasion. :rolleyes:

[DFD1]

Perhaps RSVP was attempting some cultural "ground breaking" by being the first gay cruise to visit Casablanca....and thereby gaining an edge over their competition.

 

Just a thought.....

 

Also, I wonder how welcome a gay cruise would be in Egypt now, with the new government there.

[dakrewser]

 

Also, I wonder how welcome a gay cruise would be in Egypt now, with the new government there.

 

I wonder how welcome a gay cruise would be in Biloxi!

[usn1964]

I would think so as well. As I said, it seems RSVP didn't do their homework...nor did HAL.

 

One of the stories I read indicated that a recent gay cruise caused some real problems while in port. I would expect that is the reason for the denial of entry. Apparently they would not have had an issue with HAL entering had it not been for the problems caused by the passengers of the previous gay cruise.

 

I don't agree with the rules of the country but then I don't run the country nor am I Muslim so it is their way or the seaway.

[SwissMyst]

One of the stories I read indicated that a recent gay cruise caused some real problems while in port. I would expect that is the reason for the denial of entry. Apparently they would not have had an issue with HAL entering had it not been for the problems caused by the passengers of the previous gay cruise.

 

I don't agree with the rules of the country but then I don't run the country nor am I Muslim so it is their way or the seaway.

 

Then how could this be the "first gay cruise" in port as RSVP has claimed? Moroccan Minister of Tourism has a public statement there is no policy that discourages any tourism based upon sexual preference, and claims this was an action by the local port agent only.

[Boytjie]

One of the stories I read indicated that a recent gay cruise caused some real problems while in port. I would expect that is the reason for the denial of entry. Apparently they would not have had an issue with HAL entering had it not been for the problems caused by the passengers of the previous gay cruise.

 

I doubt that what happened in Dominica had much to do with this. In Dominica 2 out of maybe 2,500 behaved utterly stupid and indecent. They were arrested, taken to court, fined and thrown out of the country. The rest of the visit went fine and many on the ship did not know anything until they returned to the ship after their excursions.

 

 

Then how could this be the "first gay cruise" in port as RSVP has claimed?

 

I believe the poster means the first gay cruise in Casablanca and that the incident referred to happened took place on the Caribbean island of Dominica.

[Boytjie]

Perhaps RSVP was attempting some cultural "ground breaking" by being the first gay cruise to visit Casablanca....and thereby gaining an edge over their competition.

 

Just a thought.....

 

Or maybe they wanted to take their customers to somewhere exotic and new. Or do we have to just keep going back to the same old ports all the time?

[Arwen]

We dressed conservatively in western clothes on a recent HAL shore excursion in Morocco. We did not dress in a tent and no one was asked to be servile towards men, while visiting a town an hour or so outside of Tangiers.

 

More Islamic countries have had, and do currently have, women Presidents or chiefs of state than Northern American ones. So you might want to rethink where in fact women are "2nd class" citizens.

 

We, too were on a Med cruise, this past November, and stopped in Tangiers with a shore excursion to Tetuoan. We were already aware of the dress code and dressed modestly. I didn't feel like wearing my "tent" that day :D, but I did wear (ladies') cargo pants, a short sleeved shirt (shoulders covered) and a hat, though the hat was likely not required, but it was hot and sunny.

 

It is also against the law to proselytize. Actually very serious crime if you do. But, interestingly enough, our guide did make some comments, while we were on the bus on our way to Tetuoan, about Islam, that I interpreted as a "sell". It was a very short soft sell, though. He was a very good guide.

 

And by the way, Tangiers is quite the city, complete with casinos!!

[arewethereyet]

We, too were on a Med cruise, this past November, and stopped in Tangiers with a shore excursion to Tetuoan. We were already aware of the dress code and dressed modestly. I didn't feel like wearing my "tent" that day :D, but I did wear (ladies') cargo pants, a short sleeved shirt (shoulders covered) and a hat, though the hat was likely not required, but it was hot and sunny.

 

It is also against the law to proselytize. Actually very serious crime if you do. But, interestingly enough, our guide did make some comments, while we were on the bus on our way to Tetuoan, about Islam, that I interpreted as a "sell". It was a very short soft sell, though. He was a very good guide.

 

And by the way, Tangiers is quite the city, complete with casinos!!

It is not forbidden to proselytize for Islam in Morocco. The ban is on other religions.

[mermaid72]

Before you paint with such a wide brush about "Muslim" countries, you need to visit them. Saudi Arabia, the site of the religion's most holy place Mecca, is the most strict as you describe and does highly regulate its limited number of visitors. But so does Bhutan. I think you would be surprised at the others, including all those "Muslim" countries who have elected women Presidents or Heads of State. (Turkey, Pakistan, Sir Lanka, India, Indonesia,.......)

 

I do hope you get to see these countries and even learn some of the advantages women have under Islamic constitutional law that are not exercised in many western countries. Plus it is important to separate tribal cultural practices that have existed for eons in the more remote areas of central asia from what can be popularly depicted as "Islamic".

 

The French ruled Morocco for years. What does that tell you. I am not sure "mysterious" is a word I would use any more for almost any country now widely connected to the world wide web.

 

Start with Turkey and Jordan for "Islamic country light" - move on to Sri Lanka, Oman, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Qatar, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Indonesia, western China, Pakistan, North Africa and India just to get started.

Great term....."Islamic country light"!

Great idea, SwissMyst.

I think I will stay out of the stricter Muslim countries, what an intimidating culture; isn't it sad what super conservative orthodox religion does to a culture? Any religion, not just Muslim, I might add.

[Minoushka]

According to Islam tradition homosexuality is punishable by death or stoning as it is considered an abomination

So explain why a GAY cruise would choose to go in a predominantly Arab/Muslim country ?Why tempt the devil?

I laugh when I read about womens rights in Arab countries ...WHAT RIGHTS ????MEn decide they must cover up for fear of attracting other men particularly if they are married

I see men HERE in shorts and tees comfy in this heat but the women in long heavy dresses all covered up and veiled Do tyou know how hot they must be under all those clothes?

You tell me they have rights? If they did you don't think they would prefer something more airy...not necessarily sexy ...just lighter But they cannot choose THey must remain submissive and obedient ...or else

[arewethereyet]

Or maybe they wanted to take their customers to somewhere exotic and new. Or do we have to just keep going back to the same old ports all the time?

I don't understand the need for a "gay cruise". Can't gay people travel on cruises not designated as "gay cruises"? You can find a cruise line to take you almost anywhere in the world (I know that you already know that - just sayin'). I'm pretty sure there are gay people on almost every cruise there has ever been.

[arewethereyet]

And not necessarily religion - think Myanmar, Ukraine, even Singapore for that matter. Being a non-Jew in Israel is no fun either.

Is it as bad as being a non-Mormon in Utah? ;)

[dakrewser]

I don't understand the need for a "gay cruise". Can't gay people travel on cruises not designated as "gay cruises"? You can find a cruise line to take you almost anywhere in the world (I know that you already know that - just sayin'). I'm pretty sure there are gay people on almost every cruise there has ever been.

 

It's not a "gay cruise" per se (non-gay people can go also) but a charter by a group (RSVP Vacations) which specializes in a particular clientele.

 

Ther are also charters for "women only," "blues" or "jazz" or "rock" (or other musical genre) lovers, Winos, foodies, techies and just about any clearly defined, reasonably large segment of the population. You'll find thse people on other cruises, also, but it IS more fun when you all have a shared interest.

[arewethereyet]

OK. In that context it makes sense. Thanks.

[brightonbuoy]

Hey, I'm onboard with my partner. Most people don't really care. We had fun in Malaga anyway. Plus it was the first day of the sales! Malaga is a beautiful city.

[greatam]

Really, whether Morocco's laws on homosexuality are good or evil, who was the big brain that made the decision to visit a place where this particular group clearly would not be welcome? Were they on a mission to "enlighten" Moroccco? :rolleyes:

 

EXACTLY!!!

 

RSVP made a BIG mistake even entertaining the idea of taking a gay charter into a Muslim country. Forget the government and whether they denied portage or not. What about the general population watching what they consider to be totally against their religion and culture???

 

Very easily, passengers from the ship could have been beaten up or worse. Or could have ended up in jail. Maybe they were vying for a new reality show-"1000 gay cruise passengers locked up in a Muslim country". That was a bad joke but that is the kind of trouble that possibly awaited the passengers.

 

And if RSVP REALLY made announcements that they were taking a gay cruise into the Mosque, shame on them. A total affront to a county's culture and mores'.