Nieuw-Amsterdam denied entry Casablanca port.

[world~citizen]

Some folks need to step back, take a deep breath, and think through the situation. Countries have their own laws and mores and homosexuality is not looked upon in a kindly way in most Muslim countries. Arguing right or wrong, discrimination, etc etc does not change this fact. Can gays go to Muslim countries? Sure..and it happens all the time as long as they are discrete and do not go around shouting "I am gay." But when a cruise ship, which is chartered by a company that operates gay cruises wants to go to a Muslim country it is hard for that country to ignore the facts. To some folks in those countries it means that the gay cruise is flaunting a lifestyle and culture that is not acceptable in their own country or religio. By our standards this is wrong.......but that is not relevant to those folks.

 

Hank

 

Yes, this is the situation, for better or worse.

[pmacher61]

So I'm a "bigot" and "anti-semitic" because I link to an Electronic Frontier Foundation story about privacy at the Israeli frontier? Joe McCarthy would love it!

No. You appear to be a bigot because you attempt to draw an analogy between the true discrimination of Morocco in criminalizing homosexualtity and the very rational and common place conduct of Israel in conducting a search of electronic equipment belonging to those crossing into its borders. There is such a difference between the two that one might rightfully suspect anyone making this analogy in order to criticize Israel of bigotry against Israel.

Your attempt at ridicule by invoking Joe McCarthy is inapposite...despite your use of a quotation mark as emphasis. McCarthy became notorious for psuedo patriotic red baiting, not anti-semitism. Like you, he was put to shame.

[kazu]

Some folks need to step back, take a deep breath, and think through the situation. Countries have their own laws and mores and homosexuality is not looked upon in a kindly way in most Muslim countries. Arguing right or wrong, discrimination, etc etc does not change this fact. Can gays go to Muslim countries? Sure..and it happens all the time as long as they are discrete and do not go around shouting "I am gay." But when a cruise ship, which is chartered by a company that operates gay cruises wants to go to a Muslim country it is hard for that country to ignore the facts. To some folks in those countries it means that the gay cruise is flaunting a lifestyle and culture that is not acceptable in their own country or religio. By our standards this is wrong.......but that is not relevant to those folks.

 

Hank

 

Just the facts and well put.

[pmacher61]

Some folks need to step back, take a deep breath, and think through the situation. Countries have their own laws and mores and homosexuality is not looked upon in a kindly way in most Muslim countries. Arguing right or wrong, discrimination, etc etc does not change this fact. Can gays go to Muslim countries? Sure..and it happens all the time as long as they are discrete and do not go around shouting "I am gay." But when a cruise ship, which is chartered by a company that operates gay cruises wants to go to a Muslim country it is hard for that country to ignore the facts. To some folks in those countries it means that the gay cruise is flaunting a lifestyle and culture that is not acceptable in their own country or religio. By our standards this is wrong.......but that is not relevant to those folks.

 

Hank

I do not agree. It is unethical to complacently condone wrongdoing. In my opinion one should do what is within one's power to do to eliminate injustice even if it is simply taking a stand against discrimination in a public forum. Contrary to your assertion that arguing right and wrong will not effect change, the consciousness raising of cogent criticism may ultimately bring about change. It is only "hard for that country to ignore the facts" if the country's mores are barbaric and injust in which case there ought to be a strong outporing of condemnation from the civilized world such that Morocco's economy based upon tourism, from straights as well as gays, suffers.

[jrzebird]

I must disagree. When people accept discrimination they contribute to it. While we cannot change the laws of other countries we can let them know, loud and clear, that we do not find this attitude acceptable and we will not support an economy where discrimination is acceptable.

 

It really isn't discrimination, it's religious beliefs, in a Muslim country, based on the teachings of the Koran. They may not be your belief or mine, but they are the basis of a religion that flourishes around the world. I disagree that when we accept what others believe we contribute to it. Just because we don't think or believe the same does not make them wrong and us right. I lived in Saudi Arabia for 3 years and enjoyed the culture, the people and the customs. I didn't give up my religion, but I was careful not to throw theirs in their faces,or try to tell them where they are wrong and I am right. We all have the right to believe as we believe. It's what America was founded on.

[pmacher61]

It really isn't discrimination, it's religious beliefs, in a Muslim country, based on the teachings of the Koran. They may not be your belief or mine, but they are the basis of a religion that flourishes around the world. I disagree that when we accept what others believe we contribute to it. Just because we don't think or believe the same does not make them wrong and us right. I lived in Saudi Arabia for 3 years and enjoyed the culture, the people and the customs. I didn't give up my religion, but I was careful not to throw theirs in their faces,or try to tell them where they are wrong and I am right. We all have the right to believe as we believe. It's what America was founded on.

 

It really is discrimination whether or not based upon religious beliefs. Does the fact that the religion prescribes it make it less discriminatory or less unethical? Nonsense. Discrimination against gays and women is evil, perod. All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing (Edmund Burke).

 

There is a right and a wrong and while there may be slight differences from culture to culture, almost all civilized people can agree on certain boundaries of what constitues right and wrong. That's why murder, slavery, incest and theft are universally outlawed. Several gay boys were publicly hung in Iran not long ago for nothing more evil than homosexual acts. That's madness. Only stultified "mad" cultures still discriminate virulently against women and gays and those cultures should be condemned for it, not kowtowed to simply because the source of the mores is "holy." Moreover, while we may all have the right to believe as we want, we don't have the right to act as we want. Your may believe it is your right to swing your fist, but your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins (Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.).

 

Obviously, someone living in Saudi Arabia, one of, if not, the most repressive misogynistic society in the world, is constrained from uttering a contrary opinion. That's because criticism of their mores aka blasphemy is a capital offense for which a foreigner like you might well have been put to death (and I bet you knew that). You don't hear a whole heck of a lot of public debate in the Kingdom, but that doesn't mean you have to succumb to the Stockhom syndrome and adopt the mind set of your captors.

 

Trying to justify your acquiescece to immorality by invoking America's founding principles is demogoguery. Whatever America was founded upon (and we had slavery and misogyny back then), it has nothing to do with what modern society now knows to be just and fair. And discrimination against gays is not just or fair. Is that really such a controversial proposition?

[Mar56]

It really is discrimination whether or not based upon religious beliefs. Does the fact that the religion prescribes it make it less discriminatory or less unethical? Nonsense. Discrimination against gays and women is evil, perod. All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing (Edmund Burke).

 

. Only stultified "mad" cultures still discriminate virulently against women and gays and those cultures should be condemned for it, not kowtowed to simply because the source of the mores is "holy."

And discrimination against gays is not just or fair. Is that really such a controversial proposition?

 

No it's not but perhaps you could spend your energy and excellent debating skills on promoting the rights of gays in your own country first i.e. the right to marry - before condemning other countries for their religious and cultural beliefs.

[pmacher61]

No it's not but perhaps you could spend your energy and excellent debating skills on promoting the rights of gays in your own country first i.e. the right to marry - before condemning other countries for their religious and cultural beliefs.

It's good to read that you agree that discrimination against gays is unjust and unfair and that it's not a controversial proposition. Also, thank you for the compliment on my writing/debating skills, but what have I written to lead you to believe that I don't promote the rights of gays to marry in my own country?

p.s. One of my own countries (where I own a residence) is Argentina where gay marriage was recently legalized by federal law. Hooray for the Argentines. Not all states in the US have gay marriage or domestic partners laws yet, but the trend is a positive one. No state criminalizes homosexual acts between consenting adults. That's a big difference.

p.p.s. For those interested in the debate on sexual liberty taking place in Morocoo today here is a recent report involving a death fatwah against a newspaper editor who advocated a change in certain laws pertaining to sex. http://www.worldcrunch.com/moroccan-imam-investigated-after-calling-journalists-death/5789

[Mar56]

My issue is this: We all live in countries that have discriminatory laws, or habits, or beliefs. My apologies for seeming to indicate that you were not promoting gay rights - my debating skills are lacking. My point is: I do not believe that we, as world citizens, have the RIGHT to ask other countries, cultures or faiths to live as we do, to believe as we do. I live in a country that subscribes to (or at least used to) a "mosaic" cultural attitude. We are all Canadians but we are not the same and we don't want to be. Unfortunately, I see that attitude shifting more towards the "melting pot" theory which makes me unhappy.

 

I don't believe that we should insist, or attempt to insist, that our way is the only way. I am not condoning the practices of other countries where people are killed or inprisoned because they are "different" - either by sexual orientation, religion, culture etc. I do NOT, however, think that we should believe that our way is the ONLY way - it isn't. Our world is enriched by all of the faiths, cultures, belief structures etc. that live on it. I don't agree with any interference in the operation of another "state" - it has the appearance of arrogance to me - you know the "we are right, you are wrong" approach. Now, I DO believe that there comes a time when the world NEEDS to step in - thinking of course of the Holocaust, Rwanda etc. But....and there is always a but....we need to be careful always that our motives for that interference/stepping in are adequately examined.

 

But that's just me.

[Boytjie]

No one said that. It is not the issue of gay, it is the issue of 1000's of gay men all in one place. Most countries would have no idea if it was a small group, a couple, etc. etc. But to unleash 1000+ gay men, some of whom you will agree will NOT be discreet, is a recipe for disaster in a Muslim country.

 

Oh, I see, we should only travel in small, discreet (closeted?) groups. :rolleyes:

 

That may be the ads but someone posted that they made an ANNOUNCEMENT to the media about being the first gay group to visit the Mosque. That is the affront and in your face attitude that probably got the ship denied portage. This isn't the USA or Europe.

 

Oh, but of course... when someone posts that someone posted something that was said somewhere I should accept that it actually happened! I seriously doubt that RSVP said anything about taking a 1,000 gays into a mosque. Heck, the biggest RSVP excursion I have ever been on (or heard of) was 500 of us at Carnival in Curacao. And we had a great time there; some older folks were not happy that we were there but many wanted to hangout with us, take pictures with us and thanked us for coming and wanted us to come back.

 

Sometimes people just need to see that gays are quite not what they thought or expected. It changes minds.

[pmacher61]

My issue is this: We all live in countries that have discriminatory laws, or habits, or beliefs. My apologies for seeming to indicate that you were not promoting gay rights - my debating skills are lacking. My point is: I do not believe that we, as world citizens, have the RIGHT to ask other countries, cultures or faiths to live as we do, to believe as we do. I live in a country that subscribes to (or at least used to) a "mosaic" cultural attitude. We are all Canadians but we are not the same and we don't want to be. Unfortunately, I see that attitude shifting more towards the "melting pot" theory which makes me unhappy.

 

I don't believe that we should insist, or attempt to insist, that our way is the only way. I am not condoning the practices of other countries where people are killed or inprisoned because they are "different" - either by sexual orientation, religion, culture etc. I do NOT, however, think that we should believe that our way is the ONLY way - it isn't. Our world is enriched by all of the faiths, cultures, belief structures etc. that live on it. I don't agree with any interference in the operation of another "state" - it has the appearance of arrogance to me - you know the "we are right, you are wrong" approach. Now, I DO believe that there comes a time when the world NEEDS to step in - thinking of course of the Holocaust, Rwanda etc. But....and there is always a but....we need to be careful always that our motives for that interference/stepping in are adequately examined.

 

But that's just me.

 

No apology necessary, but as long as you offer one, it's accepted.

You make a sensible reply and it's not just you that thinks as you do. I'm sure there are many who share your opinion. I, too, believe the world is enriched by different cultures (not so much by faiths, differences of which tend to engender strife). Where we disagree is how to deal with the norms of others which we believe constitute a violation of an individual's civil or human rights.

 

We, as world citizens, do have the right to ASK other cultures to behave ethically and to INFLUENCE them (as in withholding aid or tourism $) to do the ethical thing. Ask, influence, but not enforce by invasion. The rub is determining what is ethical. Rwanda and the Holocaust were easy examples when non-intervention was unethical. Some other situations are not as clear cut, but they deserve our attention nonetheless.

 

As I opined earlier there is an acceptable range of difference in ascertaining unethical conduct. I would not expect all cultures to manifest perfectly identical mores. Uncontrollable conditions will influence mores. I remember reading in my college sociology class about certain Eskimo tribes in which a mother had to kill one of two newborn twins because conditions would not allow both to survive. Simarlarly, certain Eskimo tribes placed senile seniors on iceberg flows to perish because conditions did not allow for any other rational course of action. These are extreme examples of norms that exceed acceptable limits of all other civilized standards, but the Eskimo can reasonably argue they are rationally based "ethical" norms necessitated by uncontrollable conditions.

 

In other socities it might be argued that it is ethical to arrange the marriage of a minor child, to allow minors to work long hours, to maintain no minimum wage laws, to abolish abortion or the death penalty, to deny free or cheap medical care to all persons, to place a heavier tax burden on the wealthy, etc. People of good faith may be able to debate these propositions. However, there is no rational basis for a culture to criminalize homosexual conduct between consenting adults. Such unethical conduct deserves our scorn and we should act in an acceptable manner to change it, at least by speaking out against it. What is not acceptable is to complacently condone it simply because it is prescribed by a "religious" belief system. That same belief system prescribes death for blasphemy and death for apostasy. Should we condone that, too, because it is part of a "religion"?

[dakrewser]

This thread has more than run its course . I'm out of it.

[Mar56]

You have made some very good points in your post above. I agree that asking and withholding tourism dollars would be an appropriate response. HOWEVER, withholding aid only hurts those who are already hurting the most. I disagree with that response.

 

However, there is no rational basis for a culture to criminalize homosexual conduct between consenting adults. Such unethical conduct deserves our scorn and we should act in an acceptable manner to change it, at least by speaking out against it.

 

And I agree with this also.

 

What is not acceptable is to complacently condone it simply because it is prescribed by a "religious" belief system. That same belief system prescribes death for blasphemy and death for apostasy. Should we condone that, too, because it is part of a "religion"?

 

This one is difficult for me. We do a lot of damage to people through our religious beliefs - whatever they might be, which you alluded to in your comments in your post above. But while I might not condone it complacently, I would defend to my death their right TO THAT religious belief. However, we know how things can get "twisted" in their interpretation, and how religious tenats can be ignored or utilized in support of any argument.

 

You have provided some "food for thought" - it's a difficult issue and one that I think will be around for a long time, given our human nature to belong to specific "tribes".

 

I think that this thread is likely to be closed or taken off the boards soon - if you would like to continue this discussion my email is sam dot watt at hotmail dot com

[rbyrd2531]

I am humbled by the many straight people who are supportive of gay people on here...(It must be the cruise lifestyle that leads to this) :>) We are about to go on our second cruise in December and it is not a gay cruise. I feel much better now seeing there will probably be nice people with us.

 

I went with my partner a few years back on an RSVP Alaska cruise and everyone was nice and I saw no "over the top" behavior and Alaska was unscathed. (Sarah Palin quit her job and left town right before we went, but she is probably back shooting wolves from a helicopter again).

 

As for these other countries....

 

My two cents about these countries is that they will slowly evolve just as ours does. In my mind , it is not a matter of respecting their culture, but that there should be basic human rights in all countries. (In some of these countries, teenage boys are hanged if it is discovered they were raped by male terrorists) This is absurd, as is the homophobia that drives it.

 

Russ

[greatam]

 

Oh, but of course... when someone posts that someone posted something that was said somewhere I should accept that it actually happened! I seriously doubt that RSVP said anything about taking a 1,000 gays into a mosque.

 

The comment was made by an RSVP rep in response to a question by an Al Arabiya reporter in Europe. The exact comment, after talking about the ship being at full capacity (1500+ passengers)-"Our programme for Morocco includes visits to traditional souks and the Hassan Mosque".

 

This comment was sent around the Middle East by Al Arabiya TV and internet. Then it was picked up by Zain, Godudu and Sharq (kind of the Middle East versions of Facebook) and if you can't read Arabic, you can't read the scathing comments. But let it suffice that there were many, many death threats.

 

And with the death threats came this from RSVP: "the "visit of a gay cruise ship" turned into "a public and potentially controversial matter".

 

Still going to believe that the government of Morocco was the ONLY reason RSVP/HAL suddenly changed the Morocco port??? RSVP put their clients in danger by even attempting to take a gay charter into a Muslim country. Then they made it worse by making "in your face" statements to a SAUDI reporter that were NOT well received by the general populace of the Middle East. They received death threats to their passengers. I am sure HAL must have had second thoughts about the safety of their ship. RSVP CYA'd their butts after a firestorm from the general public across the Middle East erupted. As I posted previously, just have to spend some time on the ground in the Middle East to understand why this was such a stupid, stupid idea to begin with

[peaches from georgia]

We have enough discrimination right here to worry about without trying to solve Morocco's ethical problems. Just following the news here and being aware of the anti-gay sentiment so apparent in our current politics should be enough to tell us to tend to our own business first.

 

We had an uncomfortable situation at a dining table for 8 on the Oosterdam several years ago. Two of our tablemates were a gay couple from Canada, one an actor and one a director of movies and stage plays. Very well traveled, interesting and fun guys and we enjoyed their company all during the week for drinks and lunch, too. Unfortunately there also was an elderly couple from Miami at the table who refused to speak to the Canadians during dinner and couldn't have been more rude. No, I don't give them a pass because of their age either.

[Jade13]

Some folks need to step back, take a deep breath, and think through the situation. Countries have their own laws and mores and homosexuality is not looked upon in a kindly way in most Muslim countries. Arguing right or wrong, discrimination, etc etc does not change this fact. Can gays go to Muslim countries? Sure..and it happens all the time as long as they are discrete and do not go around shouting "I am gay." But when a cruise ship, which is chartered by a company that operates gay cruises wants to go to a Muslim country it is hard for that country to ignore the facts. To some folks in those countries it means that the gay cruise is flaunting a lifestyle and culture that is not acceptable in their own country or religio. By our standards this is wrong.......but that is not relevant to those folks.

 

Hank

 

 

Agree.

 

And as I mentioned earlier this could have been a large security issue. For all we know the local authorities were getting death threats that passengers on the ships would be harmed, and decided it best to deny entry for security reasons to not only the ships passengers, but the security of their own citizens.

[Jade13]

The comment was made by an RSVP rep in response to a question by an Al Arabiya reporter in Europe. The exact comment, after talking about the ship being at full capacity (1500+ passengers)-"Our programme for Morocco includes visits to traditional souks and the Hassan Mosque".

 

This comment was sent around the Middle East by Al Arabiya TV and internet. Then it was picked up by Zain, Godudu and Sharq (kind of the Middle East versions of Facebook) and if you can't read Arabic, you can't read the scathing comments. But let it suffice that there were many, many death threats.

 

And with the death threats came this from RSVP: "the "visit of a gay cruise ship" turned into "a public and potentially controversial matter".

 

Still going to believe that the government of Morocco was the ONLY reason RSVP/HAL suddenly changed the Morocco port??? RSVP put their clients in danger by even attempting to take a gay charter into a Muslim country. Then they made it worse by making "in your face" statements to a SAUDI reporter that were NOT well received by the general populace of the Middle East. They received death threats to their passengers. I am sure HAL must have had second thoughts about the safety of their ship. RSVP CYA'd their butts after a firestorm from the general public across the Middle East erupted. As I posted previously, just have to spend some time on the ground in the Middle East to understand why this was such a stupid, stupid idea to begin with

 

This is exactly what I was just posting that this was a security issue all around. Thank you for clarifying what was said on Al Arabiya TV and internet. I agree that HAL probably was concerned about the safety of their ship.

[Himself]

I would hope that this conversation would shed more light than heat. I am not sure that this is the case.

[greatam]

Agree.

 

And as I mentioned earlier this could have been a large security issue. For all we know the local authorities were getting death threats that passengers on the ships would be harmed, and decided it best to deny entry for security reasons to not only the ships passengers, but the security of their own citizens.

 

You are absolutely correct. There were many, many death threats, "blow up the ship" threats, etc. etc. on the social networking sites/forums operating in the Middle East. It truly wouldn't take much to get some of the thugs/hardliners/militants to act upon the threats.

[hypercafe]

I agree with the above post. There is a lot of anti this and that going on all over the world. As a country I thing we spent too much time trying to fix the world while we have lots of problems at home. When our President said he was in favor of gay marriage there was a uproar. let's be sure this charter would be welcome in all US cities before we worry about other places. Happy 4th to all.

[readytogo2]

After reading this entire thread all I can say is I will totally be enjoying my life in the US more than usual on this fine 4th of July.:) We all seem to take our freedom for granted.

[IRL_Joanie]

.............Sometimes people just need to see that gays are quite not what they thought or expected. It changes minds.

 

I removed all but the last paragraph of Peter's Post for a SPECIFIC REASON!!!!!!!!!!!

 

That reason is 100% correct and means so much to me.

 

I have a brother who is gay. For about 50% of his life he tried to keep up a "Straight" front, even to the point of denying to himself and all of his family, me included his homosexuality. (He came out when he was 40 years old)

 

My brother was miserable!!! His life was a living hell and until he came out to himself in particular, his life was almost not worth living.

 

He came to visit me a few years back in the mid 90's and we sat and talked for hours. I brought the subject up to him, he'd not come out yet, and told him that no matter what, I was his big sister and would stand beside him. He finally opened up and told me his thoughts and feelings throughout all the years of his life up til then.

 

When he made the announcement to the family, and started living his life as he needed to, as a a Gay Man, he became more peaceful not only with himself, but everyone around him. Our father at first disowned him and swore he'd never ever have anything to do with my brother. Thankfully, our father relented and came to know my brother as he really was/is and came to love him the best of all 6 of us kids!!! My brother finally got the love of a father who knew the truth and could accept him for what he truly was, and not as someone hiding his true self to the world!!

 

What does this have to do with this thread and most importantly with Peter's comment???

 

It has to do with acceptance of someone for being a human being, no matter who they are, their sexuality, lack of or whatever.

 

For some reason, I tend to gravitate more to male gays than I do to any other human being, straight, lesbian or whatever. I seem to have an affinity for knowing that in a male gay's presence I am safe (hope that makes sense??) I just feel like they are my brothers and I do not care that they are gay, I know that they know I am straight and they respect me for it and treat me with the respect I think I deserve.

 

I do not continence any form of disrespect to someone's sexuality or mores, anymore than I do to their religion or political affiliation.

 

A person is who they are and that is why I either like them, or detest them.

 

Attitudes should change, laws should change, religious beliefs should change, BUT....IF we look at history, how long does it take to change anything....We cannot force our thoughts, our mores/morals, our religious beliefs upon the world in general. Hell, if anything, the Crusades, WWII, Vietnam, Desert Storm and our current war(s) are showing us this fact.

 

We cannot rush in and try to force ourselves and our beliefs in Right and wrong on anyone. People, Countries, Governments have to be led to the truth/right or wrong, the hard way, over time. Baby Steps.... Baby Steps...

 

Sorry that I've started going off and babbling, but this issue has me upset. Not the issue of a cruise ship with a Gay Charter aboard was trying to enter a port where they were at first told it was alright that they could come to, but that a few people, rightly or wrongly, have seen fit to denigrate not only the cruise line, but also the Gay Charter for attempting to go there and being denied their (in my eyes, but not the eyes of that Country's government) rightful entry.

 

We can play the Blame Game forever:( The truth of the matter is that the people who could have benefited the most, locals, government officials, and the passengers themselves, lost out on a good time in port. The locals and the Government lost out on being able to see that the Gay passengers were not a threat to their young men or women, that they are human beings just like all the rest of humanity.

 

Let's stop playing the blame game and try to make the changes as we can, not force our beliefs and all upon the world as fast as we can...... Baby Steps.... Baby Steps...

 

Joanie

[SwissMyst]

.....

For some reason, I tend to gravitate more to male gays than I do to any other human being, straight, lesbian or whatever. I seem to have an affinity for knowing that in a male gay's presence I am safe (hope that makes sense??) I just feel like they are my brothers and I do not care that they are gay, I know that they know I am straight and they respect me for it and treat me with the respect I think I deserve. ....

 

You introduced a new perspective to this debate, particularly if Muslim countries care deeply about protecting their women from untoward male advances. Amazing.

[greatam]

 

I do not continence any form of disrespect to someone's sexuality or mores, anymore than I do to their religion or political affiliation.

 

Attitudes should change, laws should change, religious beliefs should change, BUT....IF we look at history, how long does it take to change anything....We cannot force our thoughts, our mores/morals, our religious beliefs upon the world in general. Hell, if anything, the Crusades, WWII, Vietnam, Desert Storm and our current war(s) are showing us this fact.

 

We cannot rush in and try to force ourselves and our beliefs in Right and wrong on anyone. People, Countries, Governments have to be led to the truth/right or wrong, the hard way, over time. Baby Steps.... Baby Steps...

 

 

Let's stop playing the blame game and try to make the changes as we can, not force our beliefs and all upon the world as fast as we can...... Baby Steps.... Baby Steps...

 

Joanie

 

I sure don't understand your post at all.

 

One minute you are all for respecting the prime religion of the Middle East, the next minute it is baby steps, baby step for CHANGE.

 

You can't have it both ways. And the Middle East is going BACKWARDS very, very rapidly. I have spent 19-20 months in the last 5 years living and working in the Middle East. As long as you have the heavy arm of the Imams and radical fundamentalists exerting their presence, there will be no DEMOCRACY as we know it and NO CHANGE.