Nieuw-Amsterdam denied entry Casablanca port.

[greatam]

Is it as bad as being a non-Mormon in Utah? ;)

 

I'll go with that one. My brother had to put his Christian kids (Presbyterian) in Catholic school when he lived in Salt Lake. The kids were totally left out of everything until they changed schools.

[cruisin'girl]

I don't understand the need for a "gay cruise". Can't gay people travel on cruises not designated as "gay cruises"? You can find a cruise line to take you almost anywhere in the world (I know that you already know that - just sayin'). I'm pretty sure there are gay people on almost every cruise there has ever been.

Gay couples do travel on "non-gay" cruises all the time. Almost every cruise we have been on, including HAL, we have made friends with delightful and interesting gay couples and they have made our cruise that much more enjoyable.

[Boytjie]

I don't understand the need for a "gay cruise". Can't gay people travel on cruises not designated as "gay cruises"? You can find a cruise line to take you almost anywhere in the world (I know that you already know that - just sayin'). I'm pretty sure there are gay people on almost every cruise there has ever been.

 

That's a whole other discussion. :) Who needs a Christian/Blues/Jazz/Nude cruise? They can go on just any cruise too. :D Why should anyone charter a ship for that matter?

 

Yes, gays/Christians/Blues fans/Jazz fans can all go on regular cruises - and they do - but there are times when they just want to hang out with people from their affinity group.

 

Cruises are generally welcoming to gay customers, but not everyone is OK with having gays around and gays have to mind their Ps and Qs just so they don't offend anyone.

[Boytjie]

Very easily, passengers from the ship could have been beaten up or worse. Or could have ended up in jail.

 

That could happen in a number of Caribbean islands too. Are we supposed to stay home or just go to the same 5 ports all the time?

 

Maybe they were vying for a new reality show-"1000 gay cruise passengers locked up in a Muslim country". That was a bad joke but that is the kind of trouble that possibly awaited the passengers.

 

Agreed, it's a bad joke.

 

And if RSVP REALLY made announcements that they were taking a gay cruise into the Mosque, shame on them. A total affront to a county's culture and mores'.

 

Here is what RVSP actually had in ads for the cruise:

After a relaxing day at sea, we’ll be the first gay cruise to visit Casablanca, Morocco’s most famous coastal city. Bargain in the New Media markets, explore the Hassan Mosque, or head over to magical Marrakech. From there we’ll sail to the Spanish city of Cadiz, the gateway to historical Seville with treasures beyond your imagination.

I guess gay groups should also not enter churches, synagogues, temples or mosques on excursions since it could be an affront, even if they were members of that religion.

[Boytjie]

Gay couples do travel on "non-gay" cruises all the time.

 

Even gay singles do! :D

[SwissMyst]

Great term....."Islamic country light"!

Great idea, SwissMyst.

I think I will stay out of the stricter Muslim countries, what an intimidating culture; isn't it sad what super conservative orthodox religion does to a culture? Any religion, not just Muslim, I might add.

 

Those in those countries you label as "sad", think many of our Western customs are appalling too. Interesting, isn't it? I hope you do get a chance to visit these "Islamic light" countries and Jordan is probably one of the best to start with and Turkey second. They are rich in history, culture, wonderful food, great tourism infrastructure, warm and welcoming hospitality and even travel bargains.

 

One of the best "dialogues" about East trying to meet West is in the final pages of Thomas Friedman's classic book on globalization "The Lexus and the Olive Tree". He created an imaginary conversation between a pro-western leader and a pro-middle east traditional leader. Each makes excellent points for each side and each makes candid observations of value about the other. http://www.thomaslfriedman.com/bookshelf/the-lexus-and-the-olive-tree/

[greatam]

That could happen in a number of Caribbean islands too. Are we supposed to stay home or just go to the same 5 ports all the time?

 

No one said that. It is not the issue of gay, it is the issue of 1000's of gay men all in one place. Most countries would have no idea if it was a small group, a couple, etc. etc. But to unleash 1000+ gay men, some of whom you will agree will NOT be discreet, is a recipe for disaster in a Muslim country.

 

 

 

Agreed, it's a bad joke.

Bad joke maybe, BUT it is exactly what COULD happen. RSVP should have been more cognizant of both the cultural climate and their own clients feelings about being denied entry in various places. WHY would a reputable company put their clients at risk of at the worst jail? At the least, hurt feelings. Seems rather spurious to me. Or maybe just arrogance on the part of the company???

 

 

Here is what RVSP actually had in ads for the cruise:

After a relaxing day at sea, we’ll be the first gay cruise to visit Casablanca, Morocco’s most famous coastal city. Bargain in the New Media markets, explore the Hassan Mosque, or head over to magical Marrakech. From there we’ll sail to the Spanish city of Cadiz, the gateway to historical Seville with treasures beyond your imagination.

 

That may be the ads but someone posted that they made an ANNOUNCEMENT to the media about being the first gay group to visit the Mosque. That is the affront and in your face attitude that probably got the ship denied portage. This isn't the USA or Europe.

 

 

I guess gay groups should also not enter churches, synagogues, temples or mosques on excursions since it could be an affront, even if they were members of that religion.

 

No one said that either. But openly gay Muslims are NOT welcome at Mosques. It is a fundamental tenet of Islam.

 

Gay Muslims are VERY, VERY discreet in the Middle East. Just need to spend some time in the Middle East to know what I mean. There is a gay club/bar in Bahrain. VERY, VERY underground. Bahrain is one of the more "liberal" Muslim countries with booze and a pretty free for all attitude. It has a large expat community and is the weekend getaway for all the US government/military contractors that work in the "war zones".

 

BUT for gays, it is a proposition of "sneaking" into the gay bar. Gay people that I work with in the Middle East are VERY, VERY careful. They are NOT in the company of their partners except on American bases, DO NOT have any physical contact with their partners while out and about and generally act as "straight" as possible, some even taking US women with them on their trips to Bahrain. You never know when an Imam issues a order DEMANDING people be arrested or the "cultural, vice or moral" police have been sent out to do the dirty work. You may not like it, think it is discriminatory and shouldn't be allowed but that truly is the way it is in the Middle East.

 

RSVP put their clients at risk. I truly believe they realized this at the last minute and CYA'd their butts as best they could.

[zahav1]

And not necessarily religion - think Myanmar, Ukraine, even Singapore for that matter. Being a non-Jew in Israel is no fun either.

 

I don't think racist comments belong on this board

[Jumbiecruiser]

What I don't understand is why this has come up at this late stage.

 

When the call at the port was originally scheduled, was it not mentioned by HAL that this was a charter? Did no one think to mention that this was a 'gay' charter?

 

If it was not previously mentioned then I think that maybe HAL is at fault for not anticipating a potential problem in a Muslim country.

 

 

I agree. Sounds like HAL didn't properly communicate that this was a gay charter to the local authorities but the charter company has to take some responsibility for not checking each country out before setting an itinerary.

[andyandsue]

Agree with them or not, it is refreshing to see principles prevailing over a quick buck. Not every country is so quick to sell out.

 

I find myself questioning HAL's decision to send a gay charter to a country that punishes gay men. Perhaps HAL should put the safety of the passengers over profits.

 

igraf

 

 

Wait- This is refreshing? PRINCIPLES? That's called archaic discrimination.

 

I'm as straight as an arrow, but some of the comments here are just beyond my comprehension (can't gays just cruise on a regular cruise-UGH really?), but I guess I am just a progressive, accepting New Yorker who thinks PEOPLE should be treated as such; gay or straight, black or white, fat or skinny, naked or clothed, or otherwise.

 

I do agree though, bad idea that they went to country where they had to know it might be an issue.

 

And for the record, most likely not with my kids, but I'd probably rather cruise with a bunch of "gays" than many "straights" There were gay couples and families on our NCL cruise, and the ones who were drunk and dry humping with kids in plain sight weren't the "gays". Just sayin'

 

Over and out on this one.

[SwissMyst]

I agree. Sounds like HAL didn't properly communicate that this was a gay charter to the local authorities but the charter company has to take some responsibility for not checking each country out before setting an itinerary.

 

The minister or tourism for Morocco has publicly stated there is no policy against welcoming this particular cruise or any others like it. It appears therefore, this was a last minute decision made by the port agent. Or, a nicely finessed public relations moment after the fact.

[arewethereyet]

It's interesting to see that some people would criticize the cruise organizer for choosing to visit a port in a country, Morocco, known to maintain barbaric neanderthal values e.g. criminalizing homosexual acts, discriminating against women and non-Muslims (which is exactly what Morocco does) instead of criticizing the Moroccan officials who denied entry to the ship because it contained homosexuals. I, for one, think that it is Morocco that should be criticized, castigated and boycotted by all ethical persons of all races, creeds and sexual preferences.

On the one hand you readily acknowledge that Morocco is "known to maintain barbaric neanderthal values e.g. criminalizing homosexual acts, discriminating against women and non-Muslims (which is exactly what Morocco does)", then give the cruise organizer a pass for choosing to visit the place.

 

If you want to express outrage at countries that embrace repressive, fundamentalist Islamic values, have at it. You can do that any day of the week. But that doesn't excuse RSVP's apparent lack of judgement.

 

It's like walking through a bad neighborhood late at night and being attacked and beaten. The neighborhood may be well known as extremely dangerous at night. You can be shocked at the victim's lack of sound judgement without excusing the perpetrators.

 

YMMV.

[world~citizen]

Well if you travel to learn about new cultures, you have to be prepared for all manner of surprise and disappointment. This one seems over the top.

 

Too bad.

 

Smooth sailing...

[Minoushka]

And not necessarily religion - think Myanmar, Ukraine, even Singapore for that matter. Being a non-Jew in Israel is no fun either.

 

ISRAEL ??????you really are misinformed!!!!

[DFD1]

New Orleans or Key West would have worked better...LOL

 

My Momma taught me to never go looking for trouble.

[pmacher61]

But that doesn't excuse RSVP's apparent lack of judgement.

 

It's like walking through a bad neighborhood late at night and being attacked and beaten. The neighborhood may be well known as extremely dangerous at night. You can be shocked at the victim's lack of sound judgement without excusing the perpetrators.

YMMV.

 

Your analogy is flawed. Accordingly, your attempt to criticize RSVP's lack of judgment is not convincing - assuming RSVP gave reasonable advice about the laws of Morocco to the passengers. I presume the passengers were made aware of the laws and general attitudes prevalent in Morocco.

Planning to port in a country that has barbaric laws criminalizing homosexual ACTS between consenting adults does not neccessarily involve the same risk to the passengers as would walking through a bad neighborhood at night. That is because one can fairly presume that the law against homosexual ACTS was known to the passengers so, unlike the helpless victim of street crime, the passengers could easily avoid the consequences of the immoral law. Really, no sensible gay visitor would expose himself to imprisonment by violating the law against homosexual acts.

Are you suggesting that some of these gay passengers were so mad with uncontrollable lust as to chance violating the law against ACTS. Sorry, I don't fault RSVP as long as it gave reasonable notice to its customers of the laws.

[arewethereyet]

Your analogy is flawed. Accordingly, your attempt to criticize RSVP's lack of judgment is not convincing - assuming RSVP gave reasonable advice about the laws of Morocco to the passengers. I presume the passengers were made aware of the laws and general attitudes prevalent in Morocco.

Planning to port in a country that has barbaric laws criminalizing homosexual ACTS between consenting adults does not neccessarily involve the same risk to the passengers as would walking through a bad neighborhood at night. That is because one can fairly presume that the law against homosexual ACTS was known to the passengers so, unlike the helpless victim of street crime, the passengers could easily avoid the consequences of the immoral law. Really, no sensible gay visitor would expose himself to imprisonment by violating the law against homosexual acts.

Are you suggesting that some of these gay passengers were so mad with uncontrollable lust as to chance violating the law against ACTS. Sorry, I don't fault RSVP as long as it gave reasonable notice to its customers of the laws.

??? Are you suggesting that children be burned at the stake? See how that works? I made that up just like you made up the part in bold.

 

Get a grip, and have a nice day.

[pmacher61]

You might consider editing that post. No need to call another poster names.

No tolerance for intolerance.

[Typhoon1]

Even gay singles do! :D

 

Straight people travel on gay cruises too. We have met several over the years.

[Arwen]

Really, tell that to the people in this story.

 

I am Jewish and I am Christian as well...a Messianic Jew. Therefore, I can "smell" anti-semitism a mile (or several miles away).

 

I read the story. Israel has every right to protect their citizens from attacks.

 

There was a loud hue and cry when Israel built their "wall"...in order to protect lives of all. Even the UN condemned it. Too bad, people have a right to live and to protect their sovereignty.

 

And by the way...when my husband and I took our Med trip this past November, we were told over and over again by HAL that Israeli authorities would have their people actually on the ship to check out each and every one of us. HAL apologized so often for this, I was ready to complain!!!

 

All of us met individually with a Israeli security/visitor/immigration officer. No one that I asked was questioned, but I was!! I was asked several questions from the female security officer. And more than one question. Why? Because I have a "middle eastern look" and my ancestry is Turkish. Was I offended? NO. They are trying to keep out anyone with nefarious plans.

 

Then when when we were in Cairo and on the shopping part of our trip, our female guide was gushing all over the place about how much I looked like Queen Nefertiti and even pulled the shopkeeper over to have him look at me :eek:

 

I love traveling and I do respect the security and customs of those countries I visit.

[pmacher61]

??? Are you suggesting that children be burned at the stake? See how that works? I made that up just like you made up the part in bold.

Get a grip, and have a nice day.

I don't get your point. My comment about gays having such uncontrollable lust as to be unable to control their sexual urges in port was a lampoon of the classic, straight misconception about gays. What is it you are accusing me of? I'm defending gays and RSVP and criticizing those who seek to put some blame on them for having the gall to schedule a port stop in a place where cruise ships commonly port.

Methinks your ire is misdirected.

[zahav1]

Really, tell that to the people in this story.

 

 

This whole story in inaccurate. This forum is not supposed to be for terrorists.

 

The ship should have changed the port to Ashdod and bused everyone to Tel Aviv which is the most open, liberal, gay friendly city in the Middle East and some parts of Europe. Read up on that.

[SwissMyst]

No tolerance for intolerance.

 

Good time to review board posting guidelines.

[dakrewser]

So I'm a "bigot" and "anti-semitic" because I link to an Electronic Frontier Foundation story about privacy at the Israeli frontier? Joe McCarthy would love it!

[Hlitner]

Some folks need to step back, take a deep breath, and think through the situation. Countries have their own laws and mores and homosexuality is not looked upon in a kindly way in most Muslim countries. Arguing right or wrong, discrimination, etc etc does not change this fact. Can gays go to Muslim countries? Sure..and it happens all the time as long as they are discrete and do not go around shouting "I am gay." But when a cruise ship, which is chartered by a company that operates gay cruises wants to go to a Muslim country it is hard for that country to ignore the facts. To some folks in those countries it means that the gay cruise is flaunting a lifestyle and culture that is not acceptable in their own country or religio. By our standards this is wrong.......but that is not relevant to those folks.

 

Hank