Nieuw-Amsterdam denied entry Casablanca port.

[mermaid72]

Let's see, according to Muslim & Moroccan laws & mores, Gay's are 3rd class & not welcome, women are 2nd class and must dress in a tent & act servile towards men (but not Gay men I assume!), and absolutely no one can smoke. Well, who is welcome in their country?

Straight, non-smoking, non-Infidel males who dress conservatively. Perhaps there can be a special cruise to Morocco just for them!

[Boytjie]

I wanted to go on this cruise; the itinerary was interesting and Casablanca was definitely a draw for me. Alas, due to work I could not get vacation. I have quiet a few friends on the cruise.

 

As Reint has said, Atlantis has called on Egypt in the past and last year RSVP's Med charter cruise went to Tunis without any incident, so I am sure RSVP and HAL did not go into this blindly.

 

Casablanca was replaced with a call to Malaga so it has become a Spanish cruise with calls on Cadiz, Ibiza and Valencia (departing from and returning to Barcelona). I would have been happy with this port change too - I have always wanted to go to Torremolinos. :)

 

This summer Atlantis is scheduled to be in St. Petersburg which outlawed the promotion of homosexuality, transsexuality and paedophilia to minors - without specifying what "promotion" means according to the law. Would a ship full of gays be considered "promoting homosexuality"?

[SwissMyst]

Let's see, according to Muslim & Moroccan laws & mores, ....... women are 2nd class and must dress in a tent & act servile towards men ....... and absolutely no one can smoke. Well, who is welcome in their country?

Straight, non-smoking, non-Infidel males who dress conservatively. Perhaps there can be a special cruise to Morocco just for them!

 

We dressed conservatively in western clothes on a recent HAL shore excursion in Morocco. We did not dress in a tent and no one was asked to be servile towards men, while visiting a town an hour or so outside of Tangiers.

 

More Islamic countries have had, and do currently have, women Presidents or chiefs of state than Northern American ones. So you might want to rethink where in fact women are "2nd class" citizens.

[kazu]

In the United States people dress for church like they are going to the beach except in the poor areas. Poor people wear their Sunday best!

 

 

Happy to tell you Father that here in Canada that is not always the case:) Most don't dress like we did in the years gone by - however - they do dress nicely - at least at my church and dh's:D (yes, two religiions, two churches - go figure)

[kazu]

I wanted to go on this cruise; the itinerary was interesting and Casablanca was definitely a draw for me. Alas, due to work I could not get vacation. I have quiet a few friends on the cruise.

 

As Reint has said, Atlantis has called on Egypt in the past and last year RSVP's Med charter cruise went to Tunis without any incident, so I am sure RSVP and HAL did not go into this blindly.

 

Casablanca was replaced with a call to Malaga so it has become a Spanish cruise with calls on Cadiz, Ibiza and Valencia (departing from and returning to Barcelona). I would have been happy with this port change too - I have always wanted to go to Torremolinos. :)

 

This summer Atlantis is scheduled to be in St. Petersburg which outlawed the promotion of homosexuality, transsexuality and paedophilia to minors - without specifying what "promotion" means according to the law. Would a ship full of gays be considered "promoting homosexuality"?

 

 

Sounds like a great cruise to me - Malaga is an awesome port and actually much easier to diy than in Casablanca. Casablanca by itself only has a few points of interest and most head to Rabat for most of the day. You can easily get to Torremolinos by the very reliable train - only takes about 20 minutes - I'd go back to Malaga (and have) many times.

 

Sounds like a good port choice to me. I hope they have a great cruise

[sail7seas]

I wanted to go on this cruise; the itinerary was interesting and Casablanca was definitely a draw for me. Alas, due to work I could not get vacation. I have quiet a few friends on the cruise.

 

As Reint has said, Atlantis has called on Egypt in the past and last year RSVP's Med charter cruise went to Tunis without any incident, so I am sure RSVP and HAL did not go into this blindly.

 

Casablanca was replaced with a call to Malaga so it has become a Spanish cruise with calls on Cadiz, Ibiza and Valencia (departing from and returning to Barcelona). I would have been happy with this port change too - I have always wanted to go to Torremolinos. :)

 

This summer Atlantis is scheduled to be in St. Petersburg which outlawed the promotion of homosexuality, transsexuality and paedophilia to minors - without specifying what "promotion" means according to the law. Would a ship full of gays be considered "promoting homosexuality"?

 

 

 

Malaga for Torremolinos is a great port. We have had resort stays several times at Torremolinos as well as down the coast at Marbella which is beautiful. It's on the beach at Torremolinos that I learned how delicious grilled salmon and swordfish are. They set grills into the sand and as the fishing boats brought the fish ashore, they put it immediately on the grill. Wonderful!!!! :)

 

I'm sorry for those aboard who were disappointed and hope they had a wonderful time regardless.

 

 

Seems we agree, Kazu.

I was typing while you were posting.

[Jade13]

Let's see, according to Muslim & Moroccan laws & mores, Gay's are 3rd class & not welcome, women are 2nd class and must dress in a tent & act servile towards men (but not Gay men I assume!), and absolutely no one can smoke. Well, who is welcome in their country?

Straight, non-smoking, non-Infidel males who dress conservatively. Perhaps there can be a special cruise to Morocco just for them!

 

I know someone who is gay, Jewish, and parent from Morocco. He and his partner took a group tour there a couple of years ago, and another gay couple was also on the tour because they made sure in advance it would not be a problem with others. I guess the difference is that no one would know they were gay, but bringing a RSVP charter there was risky. For all we know the government denied entry because there were threats of retaliation. But I doubt that was the reason. They LOVED Morocco by the way.

[Sea42]

HOWEVER, we can not denigrate nor berate any country or religion for their laws. As I understand it, it is a Law and being Gay can get you anywhere from 6 months to 3 years in prison!!!

 

 

 

Joanie

I must disagree. When people accept discrimination they contribute to it. While we cannot change the laws of other countries we can let them know, loud and clear, that we do not find this attitude acceptable and we will not support an economy where discrimination is acceptable.

[Boytjie]

Sometimes perceptions and minds are changed when they are exposed to gays and lesbians.

 

Some Caribbean islands remain hostile while others are quite happy to have gay tourists spend money on their islands. In 2009 we tendered at St. John USVI and when I shopped at a outdoors stall the woman said to me: "they did not tell us you were coming!" She said we were very good customers and asked that we come back the next year.

 

In Curacao (gay friendly) three of us took a cab to go scuba diving and the taxi driver thought he'd warn us about "the gay ship" that was going to be there that day. We told him "we are on the gay cruise". He seemed a bit surprised, maybe we did not look like some stereotype he expected.

 

We have seen that kind of thing happen everywhere: the tour guide in St. John, New Brunswick; the tour guide in Roatan; the Lumberjack MC and "contestants" in Ketchikan, Alaska etc.

[iancal]

Sea42 is right...just because some jurisdicition/country legislates discrimination does not make it right. It can never be right.

[dakrewser]

Let's see, according to Muslim & Moroccan laws & mores, Gay's are 3rd class & not welcome, women are 2nd class and must dress in a tent & act servile towards men (but not Gay men I assume!), and absolutely no one can smoke. Well, who is welcome in their country?

Straight, non-smoking, non-Infidel males who dress conservatively. Perhaps there can be a special cruise to Morocco just for them!

 

Sounds like South Carolina!

 

:)

[serendipity1499]

Most are aware of Morocco stance on Gays. So I ask the same as OP, why would RSVP as a group or Hal try to go into Morocco? Seems a little strange to me, did RSVP or Hal really think Morocco wasn't going to abide by their own laws?

 

Agree with you..Why in heavens would anyone want to go into a country that has laws which might land them in jail..I can't understand why HAL would even consider that these Psgrs. would be safe in Morocco..

 

We dressed conservatively in western clothes on a recent HAL shore excursion in Morocco. We did not dress in a tent and no one was asked to be servile towards men, while visiting a town an hour or so outside of Tangiers.

 

More Islamic countries have had, and do currently have, women Presidents or chiefs of state than Northern American ones. So you might want to rethink where in fact women are "2nd class" citizens.

 

I drove through Morocco twice with two different Friends from my office in the early 70's ..We had a wonderful time both times & met some lovely people..In Agadir we were invited to the Mayor's home for dinner.. There were a several other men & us (2 ladies).. the Mayor's Wife & Daughter served us, but never came into the dining room until Dinner was done..Then his wife was invited in to join us..Very interesting, dinner was wonderful, but we both felt a bit uncomfortable about his wife not being able to join us until later..

 

I was excited several years ago to go back to Morocco with DH..While we were in a square in Casablanca we got to talking with a Gentleman.. In fun he offered DH 2 goats & 1000 Moroccan Dirhams if DH would agree to sell me to him;)..Said he needed a good wife to help him with his work...When I asked DH if he sometimes wishes he had taken the goats his answer was "What would I do with a bunch of goats?" :D:D Hmmmm

 

Cheers...Betty

[mermaid72]

We dressed conservatively in western clothes on a recent HAL shore excursion in Morocco. We did not dress in a tent and no one was asked to be servile towards men, while visiting a town an hour or so outside of Tangiers.

 

More Islamic countries have had, and do currently have, women Presidents or chiefs of state than Northern American ones. So you might want to rethink where in fact women are "2nd class" citizens.

Well, I guess that "some" of the Muslim women who must wear burkas, can't vote, can't drive, are discouraged from attending school, nor are allowed outside of their homes without a male relative in attendance, might disagree with you, that sounds pretty second class to me.

 

But I digress, I would love to visit Morocco, what a fascinating and mysterious place it must be. But how sad that a religion puts such stringent and archaic laws upon some of its citizens and visitors.

[dakrewser]

But I digress, I would love to visit Morocco, what a fascinating and mysterious place it must be. But how sad that a religion puts such stringent and archaic laws upon some of its citizens and visitors.

 

And I'm sure they'd say the same about us and our laws.

 

We've also heard of other countries blocking cruise ships from docking, like Argentina (Christian) and Israel (Jewish) - so it isn't really a religious thing at all. Much more cultural and nationalistic.

[RuthC]

Well, I guess that "some" of the Muslim women who must wear burkas, can't vote, can't drive, are discouraged from attending school, nor are allowed outside of their homes without a male relative in attendance, might disagree with you, that sounds pretty second class to me.

That does not sound like the culture of Morocco. It sounds more like Saudi Arabia. There is a difference.

Morocco is a secular country, although the culture is heavily rooted in religious tenets.

 

But I digress, I would love to visit Morocco, what a fascinating and mysterious place it must be. But how sad that a religion puts such stringent and archaic laws upon some of its citizens and visitors.

It is not the Islamic religion that puts stringent laws on people so much as it's the fundamental interpretation of those laws.

[pmacher61]

Sea42 is right...just because some jurisdicition/country legislates discrimination does not make it right. It can never be right.

I agree. Moreover, those ethical relativists who give discriminators and other wrong doers a free pass because it is " their culture" are either ignorant of the evil they help perpetuate or are culpable co-conspirators who should be brought to their senses by forceful means.

 

There is a moral wrong and a moral right. True, the definition of wrong and right may vary from culture to culture, but the spectrum of variance is limited by obvious boundaries that all rational people ought to be able to agree upon. So, for example, in all societies unjustified murder is unethical and against the law. The same is true for incest, theft, slavery, etc. Discrimination (especially that which calls for criminal penalty) based upon gender and homosexuality should be included in that list upon which all ethical people should be able to agree.

 

To allow others, no matter what their culture or religion, to commit injustices that for whatever reason transgress the acceptable boundaries of moral conduct is wrong. It should not be condoned. It should be criticized for what it is - horrible immoral conduct.

 

Intelligent civilizations and societies evolve based upon improved awareness of the world aound us. All value systems are not equal. Some are more enlightened than others. The value system adhered to by Moroccans (at least the ones who called the shots here) is unethical and should be challenged, not condoned as "theirs."

[SwissMyst]

Well, I guess that "some" of the Muslim women who must wear burkas, can't vote, can't drive, are discouraged from attending school, nor are allowed outside of their homes without a male relative in attendance, might disagree with you, that sounds pretty second class to me.

 

But I digress, I would love to visit Morocco, what a fascinating and mysterious place it must be. But how sad that a religion puts such stringent and archaic laws upon some of its citizens and visitors.

 

Before you paint with such a wide brush about "Muslim" countries, you need to visit them. Saudi Arabia, the site of the religion's most holy place Mecca, is the most strict as you describe and does highly regulate its limited number of visitors. But so does Bhutan. I think you would be surprised at the others, including all those "Muslim" countries who have elected women Presidents or Heads of State. (Turkey, Pakistan, Sir Lanka, India, Indonesia,.......)

 

I do hope you get to see these countries and even learn some of the advantages women have under Islamic constitutional law that are not exercised in many western countries. Plus it is important to separate tribal cultural practices that have existed for eons in the more remote areas of central asia from what can be popularly depicted as "Islamic".

 

The French ruled Morocco for years. What does that tell you. I am not sure "mysterious" is a word I would use any more for almost any country now widely connected to the world wide web.

 

Start with Turkey and Jordan for "Islamic country light" - move on to Sri Lanka, Oman, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Qatar, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Indonesia, western China, Pakistan, North Africa and India just to get started.

[pmacher61]

It is not the Islamic religion that puts stringent laws on people so much as it's the fundamental interpretation of those laws.

Interesting. How do square your comment with the fact that in every traditional school of Islamic jurisprudence, apostasy is a capital offense. Moreover, were you aware that in Morocco rapists may go scot free by offering to marry their victims? See http://za.news.yahoo.com/outrage-over-suicide-moroccan-teen-forced-marry-rapist-171035293.html

.

[pmacher61]

Before you paint with such a wide brush about "Muslim" countries, you need to visit them.

This is like saying that in order to be a doctor, one first has to be sick. One doesn't have to visit a place to know about it.

 

I think you would be surprised at the others, including all those "Muslim" countries who have elected women Presidents or Heads of State. (Turkey, Pakistan, Sir Lanka, India, Indonesia,.......)

As your quotation marks indicate, the countries you have listed are not ruled by Islamic (sharia) law. Except for India, the countries may have majority Muslium populations, but the governance is secular.

 

I do hope you get to see these countries and even learn some of the advantages women have under Islamic constitutional law that are not exercised in many western countries.

Can you give an example? Under Islamic Sharia law a woman's testimony in court counts for one half that of a man. A woman must have four witnesses to establish the crime of rape. Premarital sex (by a woman only of course) and homosexual sex are punishable by death. Would you really deny that discrimination (as we define it in the English language) against women exists in Islamic law states as well as all Muslim majority states?

[SwissMyst]

This is like saying that in order to be a doctor, one first has to be sick. One doesn't have to visit a place to know about it.

 

As your quotation marks indicate, the countries you have listed are not ruled by Islamic (sharia) law. Except for India, the countries may have majority Muslium populations, but the governance is secular.

 

Can you give an example? Under Islamic Sharia law a woman's testimony in court counts for one half that of a man. A woman must have four witnesses to establish the crime of rape. Premarital sex (by a woman only of course) and homosexual sex are punishable by death. Would you really deny that discrimination (as we define it in the English language) against women exists in Islamic law states as well as all Muslim majority states?

 

As the Bible says, take the log out of your own eye before you attempt to remove the cinder from another's. Matthew 7:3

 

American culture can look strange to those from the outside looking in too: http://www.scrippsnews.com/content/ambrose-marriage-solution-many-social-problems

[mightycruisequeen]

Really, whether Morocco's laws on homosexuality are good or evil, who was the big brain that made the decision to visit a place where this particular group clearly would not be welcome? Were they on a mission to "enlighten" Moroccco? :rolleyes:

[Boytjie]

Were they on a mission to "enlighten" Moroccco? :rolleyes:

 

No, just on a mission to visit a foreign country. :rolleyes:

[pmacher61]

Really, whether Morocco's laws on homosexuality are good or evil, who was the big brain that made the decision to visit a place where this particular group clearly would not be welcome? Were they on a mission to "enlighten" Moroccco? :rolleyes:

Would that be a bad thing?

p.s. Is there really any question in your mind whether the Moroccan law that criminalizes homosexual acts is good or evil?

[dakrewser]

Would that be a bad thing?

p.s. Is there really any question in your mind whether the Moroccan law that criminalizes homosexual acts is good or evil?

 

There are lots of laws in the various US states that I am repulsed by, and there are activities allowed that I think should be outlawed. Nevertheless, when in Rome...

[SwissMyst]

Would that be a bad thing?

p.s. Is there really any question in your mind whether the Moroccan law that criminalizes homosexual acts is good or evil?

 

It would be quite a burden to survey all the laws on the books before choosing to visit another country, including walking out your own front door right here in America when you see some of the laws still on the books here. People are better for holidays off going where they are welcomed, and stay away from where they are not.