The decline of “traditional” dining

[DMH15]

I just had to giggle about this, and to think we love NCL because we don't have to be forced to share a table with strangers to dine. :D :D

 

Oh my! My mother has a very unique and wierd snore and I walk and talk in my sleep. Mom is a night owl and I am "early to bed, early to rise" type. Wouldn't somebody Love getting paired with us??? Haha.

[luddite]

I know we've all seen the specials on TV about the cruise industry but the numbers come from the cruise industry, kinda like the wolf guarding the chicken coop.

 

All things have risen but do the math, a 3,000 pasenger vessel with an average booking fee of let say $1200 is $3.6 Million per week or $514,000 per day. 've seen articles they use about $250,000 per week in fuel oil so lets quadruple it to $1.o million week. That still leaves $2.6 million dollars.

Guess at $50 day per passenger for food thats about $1 million per week. Still leaving $1.6 million. Subtract 20% for commissions to agents, still $1.3 million left. All thats left is salaries whichthe cruise lines tell us mostly are paid for by our gratuities.

 

C'mon. Now you're just being silly and spewing numbers while ignoring an entire set of numbers.

[Vyhanek]

People who have cruised NCL with no other basis for comparison, probably would have no issues with the food. You go cruise the competition and you'll see.

 

Personally I think you're insulting Applebee's and Ponderosa by comparing NCL to them. How's that for complaining?! If you've been to either of those chains recently their food will compare more with Cagney's and Le Bistro than the main dining rooms.

 

I would compare the NCL main dining room food to a frozen dinner entree.....Stouffer's (not Applebee's). If you'd be happy eating Stouffer's on vacation....you know, because some people are really happy as long as they aren't cooking or cleaning....if you're perfectly happy with Stoeffer's on vacation then NCL dining will be right up your alley!

 

If you go on vacation and want to enjoy good food, because you've worked all year for vacation and you like to eat good food,.....and by that I mean Applebee's quality steaks and Applebee's quality fries and Applebee's quality cheesecake then you need to pay for Cagney's and LeBistro.

 

Paying the upcharge for specialty dining these days get's you Applebee's.

[clean1owner]

People who have cruised NCL with no other basis for comparison, probably would have no issues with the food. You go cruise the competition and you'll see.

 

Personally I think you're insulting Applebee's and Ponderosa by comparing NCL to them. How's that for complaining?! If you've been to either of those chains recently their food will compare more with Cagney's and Le Bistro than the main dining rooms.

 

I would compare the NCL main dining room food to a frozen dinner entree.....Stouffer's (not Applebee's). If you'd be happy eating Stouffer's on vacation....you know, because some people are really happy as long as they aren't cooking or cleaning....if you're perfectly happy with Stoeffer's on vacation then NCL dining will be right up your alley!

 

If you go on vacation and want to enjoy good food, because you've worked all year for vacation and you like to eat good food,.....and by that I mean Applebee's quality steaks and Applebee's quality fries and Applebee's quality cheesecake then you need to pay for Cagney's and LeBistro.

 

Paying the upcharge for specialty dining these days get's you Applebee's.

 

 

 

So then why do you even cruise?

[jmcdon7230]

 

Paying the upcharge for specialty dining these days get's you Applebee's.

 

Apparently our local Applebee's needs to get on the stick!

[DevCruise]

Personally I think you're insulting Applebee's and Ponderosa by comparing NCL to them. How's that for complaining?! If you've been to either of those chains recently their food will compare more with Cagney's and Le Bistro than the main dining rooms.

 

I would compare the NCL main dining room food to a frozen dinner entree.....Stouffer's (not Applebee's). If you'd be happy eating Stouffer's on vacation....you know, because some people are really happy as long as they aren't cooking or cleaning....if you're perfectly happy with Stoeffer's on vacation then NCL dining will be right up your alley!

 

Granted, I've only been on one cruise ship in my life, but I certainly didn't feel like I needed to go to Cagney's or Le Bistro to get better than a Stouffer's box. We did go to Le Bistro btw as it was part of the honeymoon package we received.

[bluechip508]

I don't have the perspective from the "old days" to know if food in the MDR has declined significantly or not, but I find it impossible to believe people who write in their reviews that all the food on a particular ship/cruise line was inedible. I've had a few things I didn't like too, but with the variety and quantity of food available on cruise ships, it's simply not credible that someone cannot find something to eat. I suspect people who make such claims are the same types who travel to France and expect everyone to speak English to them (while supporting English-only agendas here in the US), who snap their fingers to summon the "*****" in restaurants and then complain how rude the French are. I suspect the "rudeness"they complain they get from crewmembers is in direct response to their demanding, condescending attitude towards the crew. I guess my egalitarian nature doesn't expect a waiter to fawn over me, remember my name or preferences (suppose I change my mind from one night to the next?) or make me "feel special." I think the only people who need personal servants are people with special needs who cannot do the normal things in life like the laundry, cleaning the house, etc themslves. One of the great advantages of Freestyle Cruising is I am spared having to endure dining companions like these types every night for a week or more.

[SuiteCruiser]

I don't have the perspective from the "old days" to know if food in the MDR has declined significantly or not, but I find it impossible to believe people who write in their reviews that all the food on a particular ship/cruise line was inedible. I've had a few things I didn't like too, but with the variety and quantity of food available on cruise ships, it's simply not credible that someone cannot find something to eat. I suspect people who make such claims are the same types who travel to France and expect everyone to speak English to them (while supporting English-only agendas here in the US), who snap their fingers to summon the "*****" in restaurants and then complain how rude the French are. I suspect the "rudeness"they complain they get from crewmembers is in direct response to their demanding, condescending attitude towards the crew. I guess my egalitarian nature doesn't expect a waiter to fawn over me, remember my name or preferences (suppose I change my mind from one night to the next?) or make me "feel special." I think the only people who need personal servants are people with special needs who cannot do the normal things in life like the laundry, cleaning the house, etc themslves. One of the great advantages of Freestyle Cruising is I am spared having to endure dining companions like these types every night for a week or more.

 

Nicely said :) I think people who cannot find anything edible on a cruise ship have horrible taste in food and are likely such picky eaters that they have a very limited palate. I travel the world, and I can ALWAYS find something enjoyable to eat. Is it going to be just like home? No! That's the beauty of it. If you want the same thing you get at home, stay at home! Some people limit themselves so much, and because they end up uncomfortable, they lash out at the cruise line or other people.

 

I once cruised with an acquaintance who initially refused to have a Caesar salad because she heard all Caesar salads had whole anchovies on them. I explained it would not have whole anchovies on it, so she finally decided to try. She would not start to eat until they brought dressing. I explained that it was already on, and showed her where it was. She was embarrassed that she didnt know this, so steadfastly refused to believe there was dressing on her salad, holding up dinner and starting a tantrum because they hadn't returned with her dressing. Guess what she took away from that exchange? RCI doesn't care about giving you salad dressing. There is no way to explain plain facts to people like that. What did I take away from that? I didn't need this person in my life. OK, to be fair, there were 7 different tantrums like this, but the other two I was travelling with and I finally gave up on the fourth.

 

I see similar behavior on these boards and hope that they decide to stop cruising NCL and head over to RCi instead and order Caesar salads. They are welcome to them :)

[sparks1093]

So then why do you even cruise?

 

Evidently not for the food;) (or no longer with NCL).

[Minoushka]

I have traveled most main stream companies . Some many times . To say one comany is more this than that is funny . I have been on different ships in the same company and food was different ..although .celebrity tells you its better ...itis not . I would say just as good . iMO all companies have good food and yes you will not starve unless you choose to

Some have great desserts...Princess. Others great lunchesCarnival .great breakfasts .Cunard and Princess .well presented dinners ....alll

i honestly cannot say one was So much better than the other .They do toot their own horns

For sure

Some of my best meals ever were on Epic ...loved Cagneys and the Brazilian steak house

i loved the special brunch on Celebrity

 

To poopoo a whole line because of food is silly iMO

[newmexicoNita]

http://www.cntraveler.com/daily-traveler/2012/11/cruise-line-improvements-2013

 

"Norwegian Cruise Line, home of the “freestyle” concept in which ships feature numerous dining options, most of which levy extra fees, has also earned brickbats from Cruise Critic readers for letting quality lapse in the main restaurants."

 

I thought I would post this for your reaction. I know I used to look at cruising and think what a great culinary experience it would be. Not so much.

 

Now I know I have to pay for that, yes I just add it in. I have long described the MDR as Applebee's on a good day and Bob's Big Boy or Ponderosa on most days.

 

After reading the post here today about the head chef and his comments ending pretty much in "it is business decision", I now understand this is not lack of information that NCL does have but NCL has clearly chosen this food quality status and path as right for them. A price vs profit in that, you want better food pay for it in the pay dinning options.

 

What say you all is food quality lacking in the free choices? is it getting worse? and if not then why is it the number one cruising complaint?

 

From CC themselves this quote.

 

"the biggest complaint we get at Cruise Critic these days is the disintegration of the main dining room venue. Once the pinnacle of cruise dining—and an option that is always fee-free—the main restaurant typically was your table-away-from-home. Fabulous features included adventurous menus and intimate service by waiters who remembered your name, drink, and favorite grandchild’s middle name. But with more emphasis being placed on additional-fee specialty eateries, quality in these venues, by many reports, has sunk to new lows."

 

This certainly isn't only the NCL ships, food quality has gone down on all mass marketed lines...The prices have stayed relatively the same for quite a few years, now many things on cruises are all la carte, you choose how you want to spend your money. Too many people are remembering what cruising was like 20 years ago and expect the same quality for the same price...

[newmexicoNita]

http://www.cntraveler.com/daily-traveler/2012/11/cruise-line-improvements-2013

 

"Norwegian Cruise Line, home of the “freestyle” concept in which ships feature numerous dining options, most of which levy extra fees, has also earned brickbats from Cruise Critic readers for letting quality lapse in the main restaurants."

 

I thought I would post this for your reaction. I know I used to look at cruising and think what a great culinary experience it would be. Not so much.

 

Now I know I have to pay for that, yes I just add it in. I have long described the MDR as Applebee's on a good day and Bob's Big Boy or Ponderosa on most days.

 

After reading the post here today about the head chef and his comments ending pretty much in "it is business decision", I now understand this is not lack of information that NCL does have but NCL has clearly chosen this food quality status and path as right for them. A price vs profit in that, you want better food pay for it in the pay dinning options.

 

What say you all is food quality lacking in the free choices? is it getting worse? and if not then why is it the number one cruising complaint?

 

From CC themselves this quote.

 

"the biggest complaint we get at Cruise Critic these days is the disintegration of the main dining room venue. Once the pinnacle of cruise dining—and an option that is always fee-free—the main restaurant typically was your table-away-from-home. Fabulous features included adventurous menus and intimate service by waiters who remembered your name, drink, and favorite grandchild’s middle name. But with more emphasis being placed on additional-fee specialty eateries, quality in these venues, by many reports, has sunk to new lows."

 

This certainly isn't only the NCL ships, food quality has gone down on all mass marketed lines...The prices have stayed relatively the same for quite a few years, now many things on cruises are all la carte, you choose how you want to spend your money. Too many people are remembering what cruising was like 20 years ago and expect the same quality for the same price... I have still never been on a cruise, regardless of company, where the food was really bad, just not gourmet unless you do choose the sur charge restaurants.

[bjlaac]

I am sure you have a reference for the figures you are quoting. Would you be so kind as to share the source with us ??

 

If you don't produce the source, I will understand.:rolleyes:

 

 

Sorry to take so long to respond. My numbers were made up as an example but if anyone cared to do a little research on the internet

 

Carnival Corp for 2010

 

Revenue from passenger fares $11.1 billion

Commission to travel agents -$2.3 billion (20.7%)

Fuel -$1.6 billion

Onboard salaries -$1.6 billion

Food - $0.9 billion

Other onboard expenses -$0.5 bilion

Other Cruise related -$2.2 billion

Total Cruise related expenses -$9.1 billion

 

Income before the ship sales $2.0 billion

 

So whats not included above

 

Onboard income (Drinks, Stores Specialty, etc) $3.4 billion

Corp Overhead , G&A, Advertising -$1.6 billion

Net interest expense -$0.4 billion

 

Net Income before taxes and Depreciation $3.4 billion

Depreciation and income taxes -$1.4 billion

 

Net Income $2.0 billion

 

 

My only point in all of this is that the ship is generating possitive income before it even sails. What I don't have is the breakdown of the income and cost of the specialty dinning. The costs are buried in the food and labor.

 

But even with those costs included in the general ship expenses the ship still turns a profit before any income is recognized. Which is what I believe some people were questioning my numbers about

[johnmpcny]

This does a pretty good job of explaining the razor thin margins. Also why things like bar, bingo and casinos can make trip a loss or profitable.

 

Did you now if the ship is not 92-95% full they lost money before they even leave port?

 

Your numbers do not tell the whole story this a business segment than runs on less than 2% profit currently.

 

http://www.cnbc.com/id/29139914/Cruise_Inc_Big_Money_on_the_High_Seas

[probuilder2007]

NCL and most cruises offer the best value for you vacation dollar.

 

My first cruise was twenty years ago.

Service is different but food quality is similar.

Fast food offerings are standard now as that is what the market wants.

 

MDR offers linens, flatware, cloth napkins and there is still service there, quality depends on the crew.

Food is on its worst day is better than any Applebees or similar chain cookie cutter outfit.

 

The fact that thir business model includes upsale is just the smart CEO's structure pleaseing stockholders.

 

There is still EXTREME value aboard a cruise and NCL seems to do it better.

[swedish weave]

I don't have the perspective from the "old days" to know if food in the MDR has declined significantly or not, but I find it impossible to believe people who write in their reviews that all the food on a particular ship/cruise line was inedible. I've had a few things I didn't like too, but with the variety and quantity of food available on cruise ships, it's simply not credible that someone cannot find something to eat. I suspect people who make such claims are the same types who travel to France and expect everyone to speak English to them (while supporting English-only agendas here in the US), who snap their fingers to summon the "*****" in restaurants and then complain how rude the French are. I suspect the "rudeness"they complain they get from crewmembers is in direct response to their demanding, condescending attitude towards the crew. I guess my egalitarian nature doesn't expect a waiter to fawn over me, remember my name or preferences (suppose I change my mind from one night to the next?) or make me "feel special." I think the only people who need personal servants are people with special needs who cannot do the normal things in life like the laundry, cleaning the house, etc themslves. One of the great advantages of Freestyle Cruising is I am spared having to endure dining companions like these types every night for a week or more.

 

You say it better than anyone else !!!

[bjlaac]

This does a pretty good job of explaining the razor thin margins. Also why things like bar, bingo and casinos can make trip a loss or profitable.

 

Did you now if the ship is not 92-95% full they lost money before they even leave port?

 

Your numbers do not tell the whole story this a business segment than runs on less than 2% profit currently.

 

http://www.cnbc.com/id/29139914/Cruise_Inc_Big_Money_on_the_High_Seas

 

 

Of course there's always a breaking point, however, how many ships sail below that point. Carnival makes $2 billion before sailing.

 

I also don't get your 2% gross profit reference, the last time i checked $2 billion net profit over $14.5 billion Gross revenue is a net profit of 14% so the margins have to be higher than 14%. Not razor thin at all. Pretty good IMHO

[bjlaac]

If you're trying to say that per passenger base cost for operating a 93,000 ton 2200 passenger ship today costs no more than operating a 13,000 ton 850 passenger ship 29 years ago, sorry, but I'm not buying it.

Just the inflation raises that $200.00 cost to almost $450.00 today.

 

And being able to buy, prepare, and serve lobster for $5.00 a meal? No chance.

 

 

As Swedish weave posted, if you can give a credible source for your figures, I just may change my mind.

 

 

I think you miss my point about the lobster. They are already spending time and money to prepare "hamburger" or insert what ever cheap food you want in its place. I was trying to emphasize if they returned to "better" quality of food in the MDR and it costs $5 more per person per night on a more expensive food (i chose lobster knowing the wholesale cost) it would only be $35 more per week per person. For 3,000 passenger that's $105,000 for the week. so they are not making up huge amounts of money from skimping on the MDR food.

[DevCruise]

I was trying to emphasize if they returned to "better" quality of food in the MDR and it costs $5 more per person per night on a more expensive food (i chose lobster knowing the wholesale cost) it would only be $35 more per week per person. For 3,000 passenger that's $105,000 for the week. so they are not making up huge amounts of money from skimping on the MDR food.

 

In practice, it's probably less than that as not everybody will eat the lobster and even those that do may not have it every night.

[che5904]

I think you miss my point about the lobster. They are already spending time and money to prepare "hamburger" or insert what ever cheap food you want in its place. I was trying to emphasize if they returned to "better" quality of food in the MDR and it costs $5 more per person per night on a more expensive food (i chose lobster knowing the wholesale cost) it would only be $35 more per week per person. For 3,000 passenger that's $105,000 for the week. so they are not making up huge amounts of money from skimping on the MDR food.

 

This is one place I may agree with you but only in part. One lesson I learned a very long time ago was look after your pennies and your dollars will look after themselves. Yes if you take each individual item that NCL has chosen to cut back on, then it seems very miniscule.

 

The below numbers are picked out of the air and used only to explain my point. Lets start with your lobster $5/person/night, NCL purchases and has to have on hand but not all necessarily used on each sailing (overhead, possibly waste if not used in the appropriate time frame). Now let's purchase decent sized shrimp again lets say another $5/person/night, purchased not all necessarily used on each sailing (overhead possibly waste if not used in the appropriate time frame). 2000+ passengers, 2000+ pillow mints per night, most wasted. Let's say 200 game winners, save 1/2 the cost by either changing the way they are distributed or offering smaller prizes. Champagne at embarkation 2000+ glasses, most wasted. The list can continue with the things that have disappeared that I've either experience in previous years or heard NCL had. The point is once you start adding those small amounts that they have saved on, it could be quite a substantial savings to keep costs lower.

[wvfrogg]

I just got back from the Epic (12.1-12.8). I thought the food overall was better than the NCL cruise I took last November. I did not eat in the Manhattan Room, but what I had in Taste was very good. The salmon was perfectly prepared -- not dry and not raw. I had steak and shrimp once, and while the steak was not "prime", it came medium rare as ordered and was pretty good. All three meals I had in specialty restaurants were excellent. I had the salmon and white beans in LaCucina and it was perfect. Teppanyaki was above good -- the food was terrific and the entertainment fun. The only problem I had with LeBistro had nothing to do with the food, but from the noise coming from the Speigel Tent on the deck above us -- sounded like we were under a bowling alley. I thought the buffet did a very good job for lunch and breakfast -- the made-to-order omelets were terrific and I never had to wait more than 3 people to get it. Just my two cents that I am adding ... I am something of a "foodie" (used to be a caterer) and I found the food on the Epic a cut above what I was expecting.

[bjlaac]

This is one place I may agree with you but only in part. One lesson I learned a very long time ago was look after your pennies and your dollars will look after themselves. Yes if you take each individual item that NCL has chosen to cut back on, then it seems very miniscule.

 

The below numbers are picked out of the air and used only to explain my point. Lets start with your lobster $5/person/night, NCL purchases and has to have on hand but not all necessarily used on each sailing (overhead, possibly waste if not used in the appropriate time frame). Now let's purchase decent sized shrimp again lets say another $5/person/night, purchased not all necessarily used on each sailing (overhead possibly waste if not used in the appropriate time frame). 2000+ passengers, 2000+ pillow mints per night, most wasted. Let's say 200 game winners, save 1/2 the cost by either changing the way they are distributed or offering smaller prizes. Champagne at embarkation 2000+ glasses, most wasted. The list can continue with the things that have disappeared that I've either experience in previous years or heard NCL had. The point is once you start adding those small amounts that they have saved on, it could be quite a substantial savings to keep costs lower.

 

I don't disagree that small amounts add up. I guess what really bothers me is everything has an additional charge. If you pick one of say 6 or 7 of these cutback items and leave it alone it may make a world of difference in the long run

 

Trying to get back on topic, the most common belief about the luxury or pleasure of a cruise is the food. Once you take it away, and start charging for it, everything else seems like nickle and diming, and for us "old" timers takes away from the overall splender of the vacation.

[che5904]

I don't disagree that small amounts add up. I guess what really bothers me is everything has an additional charge. If you pick one of say 6 or 7 of these cutback items and leave it alone it may make a world of difference in the long run

 

Trying to get back on topic, the most common belief about the luxury or pleasure of a cruise is the food. Once you take it away, and start charging for it, everything else seems like nickle and diming, and for us "old" timers takes away from the overall splender of the vacation.

 

What you have said here may come the closest to the real issue. It may be just the changing of times.

 

Long time cruisers (I'll avoid call you "old" timers) have an idea of what cruising used to be and may not want the change. Still want it to feel like at least 4* dining, even though the ships have grown way to big IMO to have anything in their main dining room that could be prepared for that many passengers and still meet that. Even if they bought the expensive lobster, I doubt they could serve it like a small quaint 4* or 5* could just because it would be cooked in bulk.

 

New cruisers like myself, may not care about the 4* dining feeling as long as they can find food they enjoy to eat. And love the choice of paying an additional cost to tailor their vacation around their own desires. I would prefer to pay the $10 if I wish to have lobster, but DH on the other hand prefers not to have to pay more for Joe Blow to have lobster when he doesn't eat it. I really do love NCL a la carte options and so happy they have so many things that I can choose from.

[njhorseman]

Sorry to take so long to respond. My numbers were made up as an example but if anyone cared to do a little research on the internet

 

Carnival Corp for 2010

 

Revenue from passenger fares $11.1 billion

Commission to travel agents -$2.3 billion (20.7%)

Fuel -$1.6 billion

Onboard salaries -$1.6 billion

Food - $0.9 billion

Other onboard expenses -$0.5 bilion

Other Cruise related -$2.2 billion

Total Cruise related expenses -$9.1 billion

 

Income before the ship sales $2.0 billion

 

So whats not included above

 

Onboard income (Drinks, Stores Specialty, etc) $3.4 billion

Corp Overhead , G&A, Advertising -$1.6 billion

Net interest expense -$0.4 billion

 

Net Income before taxes and Depreciation $3.4 billion

Depreciation and income taxes -$1.4 billion

 

Net Income $2.0 billion

 

 

My only point in all of this is that the ship is generating possitive income before it even sails. What I don't have is the breakdown of the income and cost of the specialty dinning. The costs are buried in the food and labor.

 

But even with those costs included in the general ship expenses the ship still turns a profit before any income is recognized. Which is what I believe some people were questioning my numbers about

 

No...you have to include taxes, interest, corporate overhead and depreciation in the "before the ship sails" column. The ship can't sail unless you build and pay for all those things. Redo your numbers reflecting that and you'll see they don't turn a profit just based on passenger fares.

[SuiteCruiser]

No...you have to include taxes, interest, corporate overhead and depreciation in the "before the ship sails" column. The ship can't sail unless you build and pay for all those things. Redo your numbers reflecting that and you'll see they don't turn a profit just based on passenger fares.

 

 

Correct. It's easy to see, in the example it says Net Income 2.0 Billion, Onboard Income: 3.4 Billion.

 

All of the costs are in play whether anyone boards or not. If everyone decided to boycott cruises after they'd paid their fare, they would have a loss of 1.4 Billion. Yes, oversimplified because they'd terminate staff and not buy food if they could see no one was going to sail, but it's still valid. They have to assume everyone who bought a ticket would be onboard, and if they sailed with no passengers even though the ticket was fully paid, they would lose 1.4 B.