Recycling ship names

[Copper10-8]

YSELDYK (heaven knows how one pronounces that - "easel-dike" perhaps?

 

That is pronouced "Isel-dike", as in "I" like dam ships, a tough one;) but at least there is no letter "g" in there;) as in "Groote Beer"

[dougnewmanatsea]

Doug forgot the 4 C-4 combination ships received by HAL from Germany in 1946. These were the "Constillation" ships--Grota Bear, Noord Star and 2 others I do not remember.

The "Constellation" ships I'm familiar with were GROOTE BEER (I assume this is your "Grota Bear" as that is how it is pronounced), WATERMAN, and ZUIDERKRUIS. These were Victory ships.

 

I must confess that I have never heard of NOORD STAR.

 

I know HAL got some C-3 cargo ships after WWII. I am not sure if they got any C-4 ships. I do not know all that much about HAL's cargo fleet.

 

The C-3 ships they got had -DYK names and were considered cargo ships. The only HAL combi-liners I am aware of are ZUIDERDAM (I), ZAANDAM (II), NOORDAM (II) and WESTERDAM (II). Many of the cargo ships with -DYK names carried twelve or fewer passengers; a ship is not considered a combi-liner unless it carries more than twelve passengers.

 

I will look into this further and see if I can find anything else about this.

 

Yes, the first Oriana was an Orient Line ship (no relation to the current Orient Line), but that company merged with P&O in the late 60s.

This is of course true, but I think ORIANA was very much an Orient Line ship.

 

Interestingly P&O owned Orient Line for many years before they merged - 1914 sticks in my mind as the date they took over Orient, but I'll have to check - and yet kept them independent until the 1960s.

 

The independence of the two companies is demonstrated by how utterly different ORIANA and CANBERRA were, despite the fact that they were the same size and age and designed for the same route - essentially, the two companies' versions of the same concept. And yet they were very, very different from each other.

 

(Most people I know who had been on both preferred ORIANA. I never got to see ORIANA in person, but I think CANBERRA had a far more attractive profile externally... One of those ships that is just so perfect-looking, it's hard to believe she's man-made.)

 

She was a lovely ship in her day - sure looks horrible now, after partially capsizing in China last year.

She is now being broken up.

 

Perhaps they should have a new series of "three Straths", and we are overdue for another Himalaya.

There were actually five STRATH ships - STRATHAIRD, STRATHMORE, STRATHNAVER, STRATHEDEN, and STRATHALLAN.

 

HIMALAYA is a distinguished "cruising" name that would be nice to have seen recycled. So is CHUSAN, the name of her sister.

 

I have always been partial to the name CATHAY, possibly my favorite P&O name - very "Oriental" and evocative.

 

I think the former ROYAL PRINCESS, now ARTEMIS, would have made a nice HIMALAYA or CHUSAN as she is now the "small" ship in the P&O fleet, essentially serving the purpose that those ships did a few decades ago.

 

That is pronouced "Isel-dike", as in "I" like dam ships

Ah, I see. I guess that makes sense since "dyk" is pronounced "dike"!

 

at least there is no letter "g" in there

What's wrong with "g"?

 

Incidentally, John/Copper10-8, please check your inbox. (Don't worry, you're not in trouble - just have a question for you!) Thanks.

[aaerobear]

Two other famous ones

 

Queen Elizabeth .....then the QE2

 

Queen Mary...........then the QM2

[Himself]

Rev Greg Neal:

 

Do we really want ships bigger than the VISTA class?

[Copper10-8]

 

What's wrong with "g"?

 

Incidentally, John/Copper10-8, please check your inbox. (Don't worry, you're not in trouble - just have a question for you!) Thanks.

 

Nothing wrong with that letter Doug;) just that the Dutch pronounce the "g" kinda with a somewhat strong throat-sounding "gurgle" and sometimes, if one stands too close, a small amount of liquid can enter the atmosphere:) (just a little joke)

 

Okidoki, answer is back on its way to you, thanks!

[PRINSENDAM]

I posted all this before but it seems to have gotten lost in the ether!

 

 

RYNDAM (then spelled RIJNDAM), first used 1901, current ship is third

 

 

 

A complete list of all HAL ships from 1873 to the present can be seen here (site in Dutch).

 

 

Doug,

 

Excellent work on the list of HAL ships. I would just like to make one correction.

 

The name RIJNDAM was was never used on the first ship. From her launch the name on the bow and stern read simply RYNDAM. The confusion often arises because the word RYNDAM is not a Dutch word and in Dutch texts the standard spelling RIJNDAM is still used.

 

Much like the MooreMac liner BRASIL... instead of BRAZIL.

 

We should be thankful that HAL are using their old names. The last thing we need is PRINCESS AMSTERDAM or PRIDE OF ROTTERDAM or DAM OF THE SEAS or QUEEN VEENDAM 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I would like to see is some of the old DYK names on a new class of ships.... how about DONGEDYK, DELFTDYK, DIEMERDYK & DINTELDYK. Or the 'K' names KINDERDYK, KATSEDYK, KORENDYK, KERKEDYK. Of course this new class of ship would all be 30,000 ton 500 passenger PRINSENDAM type ships. ;) Call them the 'Oceaan' class... special elegant and traditional ships for special voyages or 'yacht' cruises. Something from my own personal 'wish' list! I think HAL could take all the cream away from Seabourn or Crystal with such vessels.

 

Stephen

[PRINSENDAM]

Being a veteran cruiser, it doesn't bother me if they name the new ships the same as the old ships that have been sold within a short period of time. But I do fell sorry for new cruisers who aren't certain whether they are going to be on the old Westerdam or the new vista class ship Westerdam and the same goes for the Noordam.

 

 

 

Shucks! You know most new cruisers will just go home and tell overyone they were on the HAL DAM CRUISE SHIP.

 

Last December on WESTERDAM I was please to find a pile of brand new T shirts in the shop... proudly displaying an image of the old WESTERDAM!!!! Needless to say I picked up a few for the 'collection'. I should have taken a dozen... I'm think EBAY!!!!

 

Stephen

[RevNeal]

Do we really want ships bigger than the VISTA class?

 

Himself ... NO. It's not a question, however, of "want" ... it's a question of what the line is going to give us. The word now is that they're going to build a couple of post-Vista ships that have a large observation-resturant on top ... or some such like that.

 

Personally, I like Capt. Stephen's (PRINSENDAM's) idea. :)

[jhannah]

I still say the Leerdam and the Dubbeldam should be brought back.

So, would the Leerdam be attractive to voyeurs? :eek:

[PRINSENDAM]

So, would the Leerdam be attractive to voyeurs? :eek:

 

 

 

 

LEERDAM, EDAM, GOUDA & BRIE

 

The cheese ships!

 

Stephen:cool:

[Copper10-8]

LEERDAM, EDAM, GOUDA & BRIE

 

The cheese ships!

 

Stephen:cool:

 

Plus the Limburger;)

[dougnewmanatsea]

Nothing wrong with that letter Doug

OK, just wanted to make sure I shouldn't use my middle name while in the Netherlands since "Doug" has a "g" ;) .

 

Thanks for the e-mail.

 

Excellent work on the list of HAL ships.

Thanks!

 

The name RIJNDAM was was never used on the first ship. From her launch the name on the bow and stern read simply RYNDAM.

This is interesting... Something I had always wondered about, actually.

 

I had assumed that it had been changed from "RIJN" to "RYN" just as they changed from -DIJK to -DYK.

 

Much like the MooreMac liner BRASIL... instead of BRAZIL.

Yes, this is an interesting one.

 

And of course she later became an HAL ship, so she is "one of ours" :) .

 

The last thing we need is PRINCESS AMSTERDAM or PRIDE OF ROTTERDAM

PRIDE OF ROTTERDAM is actually a P&O Hull-Rotterdam ferry. I think she was built at Marghera, and the chairman of P&O SN is a board member of Carnival... So there are even some HAL connections there!

 

But I agree with you. As someone who grew up with them (literally), I appreciate the tradition HAL names.

 

My dad just found an SS ROTTERDAM hat. He is going to wear it on the "new" ROTTERDAM (in my family we still call the ship that is now THOMSON SPIRIT the "new NIEUW AMSTERDAM" to differentiate from the 1938 ship!) and see how many people notice that it is from the previous ship.

 

Nobody can do this on Carnival or Royal Caribbean!

 

Of course this new class of ship would all be 30,000 ton 500 passenger PRINSENDAM type ships.

Fine by me! 30,000 GT with 500 passengers is one spacious ship, too... After all, the "N" ships were 30,000 GT and carried more than twice that!

 

I think HAL could take all the cream away from Seabourn or Crystal with such vessels.

Ah, but therin lies the problem. Seabourn is after all a Carnival brand (for now)!

 

Though to compete with Seabourn and Silversea, they would probably have to do the open-seating thing, which I still don't think I'd like (though I guess I shouldn't knock it if I haven't tried it).

 

Just look at how fares on Crystal have plummeted over the past decade now that there is so much competition from the open-seating, all-suite Silversea and RSSC (and to some extent Seabourn though their ships are much smaller). It seems to me that the top end of the market has shown a definite preference for open seating.

 

Of course, HAL have gone in the other direction with four seatings for more "flexibility". We took the new 8 PM seating (which actually, for me, is pretty much perfect - I don't like to eat dinner before 7 PM or so) so I guess it works!

 

But it's funny, you have so many ideas for HAL which I like but think wouldn't work out financially - yet all our members here seem to like them too!

 

Perhaps HAL should come here to conduct their market research? (If they had there'd probably be no Vista-class ships, and half the fleet would be your 30,000 GT "yachts" - most of our members seem to prefer smaller ships, as I do and I know you do.)

[lknick]

Doug—My experience with the Constellation ships was in 1951 in which the Big Bear [i suspect your spelling more accurate than mine] was my home for 35 days from Hoboken to Pusan. At that time, it and the North Star [which sailed with the Big Bear] were under contract to the U.S. Navy as troop ships…and there were sure more than 500 passengers.

 

HAL gave me 35 Mariner days for this voyage.

[bobpatj]

What a trip down memory lane!

 

george@sea,

Where did you find that picture? That's the Zuiderkruis, all right. I have a picture in my old album that looks a little newer. (I just had to get out the old album and slides from the trip.)

 

Host Doug,

I know now why I can never locate the Zuiderkruis as a HAL ship. It sure could have fooled me, though. We sailed from the HAL pier in Hoboken, sailed into Rotterdam with a fine HAL welcome. Our Captain and crew were from Holland and our stewards were from Indonesia. We even had the chimes to call us to dinner! My passenger list, from the first day, lists HAL as "Agent." HAL did give me 9 days and Mariner status for this crossing. Thanks again.

[dougnewmanatsea]

Lknick and Pat - good to hear that HAL gave out Mariner "days" for these trips... It certainly is a nice gesture.

 

Pat is correct in that for the publicly-sold voyages of these state-owned emigrant/student ships, at least to North America, HAL were the sales agents.

 

Here is a timetable from 1954 for these ships, issued by the Netherlands Directorate-General of Shipping, with HAL as agents.

[PRINSENDAM]

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But it's funny, you have so many ideas for HAL which I like but think wouldn't work out financially - yet all our members here seem to like them too!

 

Perhaps HAL should come here to conduct their market research? (If they had there'd probably be no Vista-class ships, and half the fleet would be your 30,000 GT "yachts" - most of our members seem to prefer smaller ships, as I do and I know you do.)

 

 

 

Doug,

 

Well perhaps not exactly 30,000 grt and 500 pax, but how about 23,000 and 650 pax or 25,000 grt and 500 pax?

 

I'm thinking along the lines of Peter Deilmann's DEUTSCHLAND or even Saga's SAGA ROSE. There isn't a reason in the world why HAL could not operate a similar vessels? Sure the return on the dollar investment isn't quite as good as a Vista, but a dollar earned is a dollar earned! With Carnival's purchasing power I'm sure a DEUTSCHLAND type vessel would earn more for HAL than DEUTSCHLAND does for Deilmann.

 

 

Think of it... a couple or four small (ish) HAL ships... my 'Oceaan' class... roaming the world on extended cruises.... 14 and 21 day segments. 'Cultural' ships with classical entertainment... forget the big shows. One sitting dining.... with an extra Indonesian/Dutch grill restaurant. Extended stays in selected ports... like 2 days.

 

HAL is middle of the road but I'm sure they could tap the so called luxury market with a couple of small 'yachts'.

 

Stephen

[RuthC]

Stephen, I would book happily on what you describe. I started out on ships in the 25,000-ton range---until I sailed her I thought the ss Rotterdam at 38,000 tons was too big!---and still love that size.

I enjoyed single-sitting dining on Royal Viking; could get used to the slow pace and the ability to sit and chat with no pressure to leave.

And, of course, cruises if 14 days and over---especially when they're to ports less frequented---are my preference anyway.

Even if HAL had one ship for those of us who like this sort of thing, they would be filling a niche that needs filling. (But can we have a filet mignon choice in the specialty restaurant?)

[the2ofus]

Doug,

 

Thanks so much for this wonderfully informative and nostalgic thread!

 

What a treat to discover some other veterans of the ships, Groote Beer and her sisters. Summer of 1960 was my crossing. We were below water level in a cabin for 4. I could hear the waves splashing against ship. Toilet and washbasin in a closet in the cabin, shower down the hall and you had to schedule your shower time. None of the ambiance of today's HAL ships but the same gracious and caring staff, even with a ship-ful of rowdy teens. I still have a well-worn deck of cards from that crossing and my babies learned to drink from a cup using the HAL liquere glasses. Never dreamed I'd ever be able to sail again on any cruise ship. Life is good!!

 

Have been fearful that in their effort to attract the younger cruisers, HAL would resurrect the Groote BEER name.:eek:

[dougnewmanatsea]

Sure the return on the dollar investment isn't quite as good as a Vista, but a dollar earned is a dollar earned!

Ah, but they don't just want to earn a profit, they want to maximize it!

 

Think of it... a couple or four small (ish) HAL ships... my 'Oceaan' class... roaming the world on extended cruises.... 14 and 21 day segments. 'Cultural' ships with classical entertainment... forget the big shows. One sitting dining.... with an extra Indonesian/Dutch grill restaurant. Extended stays in selected ports... like 2 days.

Well, it certainly appeals to me!

 

In fact I think it would be pretty much perfect for my tastes. And a lot of other people's. But if they can make more money off a Vista-class in the Caribbean, they'll do that instead.

[george@sea]

george@sea, Where did you find that picture? That's the Zuiderkruis, all right.

 

I checked for Zuiderkruis using goggle search. There were a lot of hits so I just checked a few of the websites listed and the only english website that had a ship the looked like a cruise ship was the site that I linked 2.

[PRINSENDAM]

[quote name=RuthC

 

Even if HAL had one ship for those of us who like this sort of thing, they would be filling a niche that needs filling. (But can we have a filet mignon choice in the specialty restaurant?)

 

 

 

Ruth,

 

Yes! Three times a day!!!! In the Lido and the main restaurant... even room service!!!! But why opt for the filet? Why not have Chateau Briand with home made Bernaise on the side? I'm not a great steak lover.... I prefer the Prime Rib or good old Roast Beef... with Yorkshire pudding of course.

 

Has anyone ever been to Rules Restaurant in London, near Covent Garden? Oldest restaurant in London and the best beef ANYWHERE!!!!! It is a favourite haunt of Mr Stephen Payne... Newbuilding Project Manager for many of the HAL ships ... and that big black one over at Cunard. ;)

 

 

Stephen

[RuthC]

Ruth,

 

Why not have Chateau Briand with home made Bernaise on the side?

Works for me. Even tarragon butter is good.

 

.... I prefer the Prime Rib or good old Roast Beef... with Yorkshire pudding of course.

 

Stephen

Yorkshire pudding, or very fresh, very hot popovers---dripping in melted butter.

Oops, there's another heart attack waiting.

[bepsf]

I just read a little known fact today:

 

 

Originally, HAL were going to name all the new S-Class ships names starting w/ the letter S - but "due to pronunciation issues" marketing decided to go with the current names!

;)

[dougnewmanatsea]

Originally, HAL were going to name all the new S-Class ships names starting w/ the letter S - but "due to pronunciation issues" marketing decided to go with the current names!

Where did you read this Brian?

 

Certainly an interesting idea... But MAASDAM and RYNDAM (originally there were only supposed to be three S-class ships, VEENDAM was ordered later) are certainly easier to pronounce than, say, SCHIEDAM!

 

I had always been under the impression that STATENDAM, MAASDAM, and RYNDAM were chosen as names because these represented three related post-war HAL liners - among the most innovative ships of the 1950s in that they offered nearly the run of the ship to their tourist-class passengers, with only a token first-class. (RYNDAM and MAASDAM were the original twins built on hulls that were supposed to be cargo ships; STATENDAM was a much more advanced development of the same concept and served as a prototype for the beloved ROTTERDAM which unlike other HAL ships of the era had a significant first-class accomodation as well as a tourist-class that was, along with STATENDAM's, probably the best in the world.) So there is a historic connection between the three names.

 

VEENDAM does not "fit" at all. Traditionally VEENDAM and VOLENDAM have been sisters, but the present ships are not. Similarly, ZAANDAM does not fit with VOLENDAM... Really, if one wishes to be historically pedantic, ZAANDAM should have replaced OOSTERDAM as a Vista-class name (this ruins the "compass" thing, but recalls the four passenger cargo liners of the 1930s/1940s: NOORDAM, ZAANDAM, ZUIDERDAM, and WESTERDAM).

 

So the business of giving sister ships names that had previously been given to sister ships (or ships with a historical "connection") as with STATENDAM/MAASDAM/RYNDAM, did not hold up... In the end it would have just been too complicated. Though having four Vista-class ships did allow them to do the nifty compass-point thing.

[Copper10-8]

Really, if one wishes to be historically pedantic, ZAANDAM should have replaced OOSTERDAM as a Vista-class name (this ruins the "compass" thing, but recalls the four passenger cargo liners of the 1930s/1940s: NOORDAM, ZAANDAM, ZUIDERDAM, and WESTERDAM).

 

So the business of giving sister ships names that had previously been given to sister ships (or ships with a historical "connection") as with STATENDAM/MAASDAM/RYNDAM, did not hold up... In the end it would have just been too complicated. Though having four Vista-class ships did allow them to do the nifty compass-point thing.

 

Doug, correct me if I'm wrong but weren't there originally supposed to have been five Vista class ships for HAL (one of them was later cancelled by Carnival and reallocated to Cunard, I believe as Queen Victoria). Makes you wonder what the name of that 5th Vista class ship was going to be since all four sides of the compass would have been covered by that time. Any thoughts or ideas?