Military Mess Dress?

[Wifflebat]

Seeing war was never officially declared with Vietnam, does the "Honorably discharged former service members who served in time of war" apply to Vietnam vets? I'm not being a wise guy..... I am truly interested in the response.

 

Thanks.

 

Your question is quite 'off subject' but I shall reply with this:

 

The United states has formally declared war on only five (5) occasions.

 

Congress has authorized military engagements thirteen (13) times, of which Vietnam was one (with a vote of 504 to 2).

 

There has been seven (7) significant or extended military actions authorized by the United Nations Security Council and funded by the U.S. Congress.

 

On 125 or more occasions our Presidents have, without Congressional authorization, engaged our military in armed conflicts.

 

The tone of your question to me suggests you are expressing the old anti-war opinion that Vietnam veterans are criminals. If I err in this please explain your point to the contrary that I might apologize.

 

Additionally, might I suggest you direct any other political questions you might have to a forum more suited to such topics.

[navybankerteacher]

Seeing war was never officially declared with Vietnam, does the "Honorably discharged former service members who served in time of war" apply to Vietnam vets? I'm not being a wise guy..... I am truly interested in the response.

 

Thanks.

 

 

No presumption that you are being "a wise guy" - you raised a good question: Army and Air Force uniform regulations both refer to military service in time of "declared or undeclared war" in referring to honorably discharged personnel being entitled to wear uniform at appropriate occasions. Strangely, Navy regulations do not refer to such entitlement - by such silence it appears that only RETIRED Navy personnel are so entitled.

 

It is my guess that the language "declared or undeclared war" was essentially intended to address your point; of course, Vietnam was just one of a number of events of "undeclared war".

[Wifflebat]

Upon parsing the text of your question and my reply with more thought I perhaps should say that I do not in any way believe you personally think of Viet vets as criminal for fighting an 'undeclared war', far from that. As read at first it did to me tend express a sediment, surely unintended, as inferring a somewhat critical opinion of uniform wearing by such veterans.

 

That position as we all know was clearly and loudly expressed by many and it triggered a too quick reaction from one who is still dealing with old and still uncomfortable memories. I do sincerely apologize for my inaccurate interpretation of the intent of your question.

 

I might have better replied to your question as follows:

 

"Service directives do not authorize uniform wear by type of war (declared or not) or specific war (Vietnam vs other wars). In general, uniform wear is specifically detailed in regulations for active, reserve, guard, recently discharged and retired members. A 'non-career' veteran of any era (except MOH recipients) are not authorized to wear any service uniform after 'x'-days of discharge. There may be some exceptions for parades and such but certainly not other occasions or military functions as we are discussing herein."

 

OK? And thank you for your service!

Edited August 1, 2013 by Wifflebat

[spookwife]

Seeing war was never officially declared with Vietnam, does the "Honorably discharged former service members who served in time of war" apply to Vietnam vets? I'm not being a wise guy..... I am truly interested in the response.

 

Thanks.

 

 

yes. my father often gets( well got, he hasn't really sailed since my mother died.. and she too was in, a WAVE in her own right at Bethesda) a military discount for cruising.

 

technically neither was Korea or several of the post 9/11 Operations.

[sail7seas]

Your question is quite 'off subject' but I shall reply with this:

 

The United states has formally declared war on only five (5) occasions.

 

Congress has authorized military engagements thirteen (13) times, of which Vietnam was one (with a vote of 504 to 2).

 

There has been seven (7) significant or extended military actions authorized by the United Nations Security Council and funded by the U.S. Congress.

 

On 125 or more occasions our Presidents have, without Congressional authorization, engaged our military in armed conflicts.

 

The tone of your question to me suggests you are expressing the old anti-war opinion that Vietnam veterans are criminals. If I err in this please explain your point to the contrary that I might apologize.

 

Additionally, might I suggest you direct any other political questions you might have to a forum more suited to such topics.

 

Upon parsing the text of your question and my reply with more thought I perhaps should say that I do not in any way believe you personally think of Viet vets as criminal for fighting an 'undeclared war', far from that. As read at first it did to me tend express a sediment, surely unintended, as inferring a somewhat critical opinion of uniform wearing by such veterans.

 

That position as we all know was clearly and loudly expressed by many and it triggered a too quick reaction from one who is still dealing with old and still uncomfortable memories. I do sincerely apologize for my inaccurate interpretation of the intent of your question.

 

I might have better replied to your question as follows:

 

"Service directives do not authorize uniform wear by type of war (declared or not) or specific war (Vietnam vs other wars). In general, uniform wear is specifically detailed in regulations for active, reserve, guard, recently discharged and retired members. A 'non-career' veteran of any era (except MOH recipients) are not authorized to wear any service uniform after 'x'-days of discharge. There may be some exceptions for parades and such but certainly not other occasions or military functions as we are discussing herein."

 

 

OK? And thank you for your service!

 

I am not often speechless on these forums but your posts have managed to just about leave my jaw on the floor.

 

How you reached your conclusions about my politics is of no interest to me.

 

What is of interest to me is the tour of duty my new groom served in Vietnam barely a year after our marriage. He was a Second Lieutenant promoted to First Lieutenant while serving and just yesterday we had reason to be holding in our hands the frame in which we have placed his Bronze Star, His Commendation Medals, and other decorations he honorably earned during his service.

 

He served honorably when his country called and I as his wife traveled with him when he was stationed stateside and waited for him when he reported to his base three miles from the DMZ as his orders directed.

 

Your posts sure opened wounds that never fully healed these forty plus years later. There were no parades when he returned home.

 

My question about eligibility to wear a uniform was a genuine one seeking accurate information about which I had no knowledge.

 

I'll stop now before I say things I may regret.

 

I apologize to any who are offended by our discussion of Vietnam era and the uniforms worn by whom .... or not.

These posts just hit too big a nerve for me to not respond. I am trying hard to remain cognizant of CC rules and to remain on topic but kindly bear with me on this one. Thank you if you understand.

 

Edited August 1, 2013 by sail7seas

[Wifflebat]

I believe in my second post I did correct my opinion on the intent and meaning of your question - and did apologize for my misunderstanding of your question.

 

As I stated at the end of my last post - "wear of the uniform by a non-career veteran . . . " I take it that was the question you wanted answered.

 

Again, sorry for my first reply as I read it in a context you didn't intend. My mistake entirely.

[sail7seas]

Apology accepted and thank you for it. :)

[rvsullivan]

Folks that served in military have no authorization to wear a military uniform for any social function that I'm aware of. I would appreciate any information to the contrary. Retired military can and do wear the uniform at official military functions they participate in. I've not found any information to allow wearing a uniform for any day to day activities other than by active duty or reserve military on official business. If someone can point me toward some "official" documentation that provides authorization I would appreciate it. I did my 14 years of active duty and have never worn a military uniform after I became a civilian.

[navybankerteacher]

Folks that served in military have no authorization to wear a military uniform for any social function that I'm aware of. I would appreciate any information to the contrary. Retired military can and do wear the uniform at official military functions they participate in. I've not found any information to allow wearing a uniform for any day to day activities other than by active duty or reserve military on official business. If someone can point me toward some "official" documentation that provides authorization I would appreciate it. I did my 14 years of active duty and have never worn a military uniform after I became a civilian.

 

U S Navy Uniform Regulations Sec. 61002-2 Covers wearing of uniforms by retired Navy personnel.

 

U S Army Regulations 670-1 (check them yourself) covers wearing of uniforms by retired Army personnel.

 

The regulations are different for retired personnel and those who have simply served honorably in times of declared or undeclared war. (There are also differences between Army and Navy regulations).

 

You are, of course, free to not wear a uniform once you have been released from active duty, although I am curious about why you seem to feel that other former military pedrsonnel should not.

[Wifflebat]

Folks that served in military have no authorization to wear a military uniform for any social function that I'm aware of. I would appreciate any information to the contrary. Retired military can and do wear the uniform at official military functions they participate in. I've not found any information to allow wearing a uniform for any day to day activities other than by active duty or reserve military on official business. If someone can point me toward some "official" documentation that provides authorization I would appreciate it. I did my 14 years of active duty and have never worn a military uniform after I became a civilian.

 

Each branch of service has unique but yet generally consistent directions on uniform policy. Both DOD and Federal Law have input on the subject and I 'understand' that in the somewhat recent past the AF has issued an AFI(?) [first time I've ever heard of such a term] that adds a degree of confusion as it seems to contradict policy as stated in other AF directives. I have yet to see this AFI personally!

 

Being a veteran, in and of it's self, does not imply a blanket authorization to wear the uniform. Retired, I repeat retired military can in fact wear the "uniform authorized upon retirement" or "the current authorized uniform". Wear can be for military as well as some civilian functions.

 

I'm sure you are totally correct on the "day-to-day" uniform statement. As a 14-year veteran you would not be authorized to wear the uniform for any function other than those 'few' stated in official service directives - that's to the best of my understanding for any branch. However, awarded full-size medals and ribbons can be worn (as on a suit) and mini-medals can be worn on a civilian tuxedo (for appropriate occasions of course).

 

I would suggest individual research on specific questions as there are multiple sources of official and unofficial information; some outdated by years, some not reflecting current changes, some open to various degrees of interpretation and others reflecting nothing but personal 'opinion'. You might try a Google search for 'military uniform wear for veterans' as a place to start.

 

If one would look hard enough they could find any answer they may prefer . . . . . probably wrong as well. I believe my information to be at least reasonably accurate.

 

Thanks for your service.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Wifflebat

[rvsullivan]

I agree that retired military are allowed to wear their uniform at certain time. However, some of these posts are talking about veterans wearing their old uniforms. Different story? Yes?

I would never think of wearing any of my old uniforms (even if I could fit in them), I'm not retired.

I've cruised in the last year or so with a couple of active duty military and one of them wore his dress uniform to dinner one night. Perfectly fine. Why would a retired individual haul around a uniform to go on a cruise, would that same person routinely wear it out to dinner at Olive Garden at home? Makes little or no sense to me. To each his/her own I guess.

[rvsullivan]

Since there aren't very many people who have earned the honor of wearing Mess Dress, I wouldn't say there are a lot of uniforms on the ships. There are usually one or two. Sometimes we even see non-US service personnel.

For the past several cruises we have been privileged to be dining with someone so attired. I will say he garnered a lot of attention; most people thanked him for his service.

You earned every one of those medals. Wear them with pride & thank you for your service. But you won't "fly under the radar".

 

Mess dress is the formal attire allowed by U.S. military for formal occasions. We all had/have the right to wear it for formal functions if active duty or retired (for some functions).

[navybankerteacher]

I agree that retired military are allowed to wear their uniform at certain time. However, some of these posts are talking about veterans wearing their old uniforms. Different story? Yes?

I would never think of wearing any of my old uniforms (even if I could fit in them), I'm not retired.

I've cruised in the last year or so with a couple of active duty military and one of them wore his dress uniform to dinner one night. Perfectly fine. Why would a retired individual haul around a uniform to go on a cruise, would that same person routinely wear it out to dinner at Olive Garden at home? Makes little or no sense to me. To each his/her own I guess.

 

How many nights per week does Olive Garden specify as " formal"?

 

On formal occasions it is appropriate to wear formal dress. Of course, no one who was not eligible to wear military dress uniform should do so, but why not, if one is? Some people really like formal nights on cruise ships - why begrudge them the opportunity?

[Wifflebat]

I agree that retired military are allowed to wear their uniform at certain time. However, some of these posts are talking about veterans wearing their old uniforms. Different story? Yes?

I would never think of wearing any of my old uniforms (even if I could fit in them), I'm not retired.

I've cruised in the last year or so with a couple of active duty military and one of them wore his dress uniform to dinner one night. Perfectly fine. Why would a retired individual haul around a uniform to go on a cruise, would that same person routinely wear it out to dinner at Olive Garden at home? Makes little or no sense to me. To each his/her own I guess.

 

 

Hi RV,

 

Since I don't know your service branch you can refer to this (somewhat current) AF document for a bit of information on authorized uniform wear by 'category' for AF military members.

 

http://www.airforcewriter.com/afi36-2903.pdf (See Chapter 6, table 6-1 on page 151).

 

Further, per this AFI, as a 'separated' (non-retired) AF veteran one could in the specific instances indicated wear their uniform. Other services may differ in someway or other.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As to your question as to why would a retiree haul around a uniform for a cruise or wear one to a civilian dinner . . . here are just two of many occasions during my short 32-year career.

2009-Veterans Cruise I w/Sammy Davis (MOH Recipient)

An "unofficial" military related function at which I or other service members could have worn authorized mess dress or other uniforms per directives.

 

Ready to attend a "civilian" sponsored black-tie dinner to benefit the WI Veterans Museum. Could have been held in an Olive Garden but thankfully it wasn't. On second thought the food might have been better if it was.

 

 

There are many reasons a retiree might prefer to, have the option of, or be expected to wear mess dress or other uniform.

 

Granted this isn't a routine night out at an 'Olive Garden' but one can see that the directives can not spell out each and every unique occasion that one might be permitted to wear uniforms. A measure of individual discretion and an honest interpretation of the intent the directives is expected - one can not just run to the Orderly Room to get answers like we used too.

In November we have the honor to cruise with hundreds (perhaps thousands) of active, retired and separated brothers-in-arms of all branches including four retired Joint Chief's of Staff. You can bet there will be not only mess dress and class A's but many true hero's with major decorations, kilts, swords, spurs and more. Should be fun.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Wifflebat

[jamessemaj]

Wifflebat, OT, but your photos are nice and certainly there would be no question of the appropriateness of your formal wear in either case (I see you wore civilian formal wear on the veterans cruise))). Sgt. Davis also caught my attention because I was stationed in another artillery unit near his at Ft. Hood at the time he was awarded the Medal of Honor. I didn't know him personally, but knew others who served with him in Viet Nam. There is no end to the surprises on the CC boards. Have great 50th anniversary and veterans cruises. I know you will. Thanks for an interesting discussion.

[Wifflebat]

Wifflebat, OT, but your photos are nice and certainly there would be no question of the appropriateness of your formal wear in either case (I see you wore civilian formal wear on the veterans cruise))). Sgt. Davis also caught my attention because I was stationed in another artillery unit near his at Ft. Hood at the time he was awarded the Medal of Honor. I didn't know him personally, but knew others who served with him in Viet Nam. There is no end to the surprises on the CC boards. Have great 50th anniversary and veterans cruises. I know you will. Thanks for an interesting discussion.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

I'll share a couple of stories with you that few people know -

 

In the movie 'Forrest Gump' the MOH scene is the actual footage of Sammy's medal presentation by LBJ and the head of the character Forrest Gump (played by actor Tom Hanks) was superimposed on Sammy's body. The wound to Forrest's butt in the movie related to the multiple fletchette wounds (30+?) inflected on Sammy's lower back and legs by one of his own batteries 105mm howitzer's firing a beehive round over his unconscious, thought to be dead body.

 

Adrian Cronauer, the 'Good Morning Vietnam' DJ (played in the movie by Robin Williams) was also a special guest on that cruise. He told us, "If I did in real life what the movie depicts I'd still be in Levenworth." Both are very interesting and special people.

 

Moments after the picture of Sammy and I was taken while awaiting the evenings entertainment to start, I offered to buy Sammy a drink. His reply was, " I'd really love one but that Agent Orange has my body so messed up that I can't, . . . . but a cold water would be great. " He got the water . . . and refills!

 

I have had the honor to have met, drank and visited with five MOH recipients (4 Army and 1 AF) one of which I worked with prior to his posthumous award . They all have been truly the most modest, approachable, engaging people I have ever met.

 

Mike

[Wifflebat]

. . here are just two of many occasions during my short 32-year career.

 

My previous post should have said "short 32-year retirement." :rolleyes:

[Taxguy77]

DH is also a Vietnam Vet and he's still waiting for that 'thanks from a grateful nation'. I suspect we'll be long dead and never hear it. But I, too, go out of my way to provide that thanks to those who wear the uniform today. I know how much that means.

 

If I see a solider, sailor, airman, marine wearing dress uniform on formal night, he will get our thanks and admiration.

 

 

 

 

You can hear it now, THANKS!

[ScubaCruiser54]

I have not seen that many wearing dress uniforms on a cruise. In the last 15 years, I would venture a guess that I have seen less than 10-15 men in military uniform. Most of my cruises were in the Caribbean and Bermuda.

 

I would say that there were more in the last three years than the prior 12. They were mostly US Army. A couple of Zoomies, two from the Navy, and a Marine.

 

Most were wearing ribbons and not medals.

[ppd652]

My humble opinion is posted for your consideration. As far as the Army goes, wear of the dress or mess uniform by retirees is permitted at military related functions. So officially, most cruises are a no go. The last cruise I was on was Seabourn west coast. A retired USMC O-5 was sporting his mess blues. He was wearing them correctly and was not overweight, though he jokingly referred to having to lose some weight before the cruise. I do not know what the USMC regs are on this, but his appearance was a credit to his former service. I wore my mess blues once while on active duty leave during a cruise. I am a bit conflicted because I do not want to look like I am showboating, but I am proud of my service and think wearing of mess blues on formal occasions can be a good way to turn the conversation to our current service members serving in dangerous parts of the world. I think I will lose some weight and wear the old mess blues on an upcoming cruise. If I don't represent my former service admirably, I won't wear them. As far as AR 670-1 and it not being a military related event, what are they going to do, kick me out of the Army?

[NMLady]

My humble opinion is posted for your consideration. As far as the Army goes, wear of the dress or mess uniform by retirees is permitted at military related functions. So officially, most cruises are a no go. The last cruise I was on was Seabourn west coast. A retired USMC O-5 was sporting his mess blues. He was wearing them correctly and was not overweight, though he jokingly referred to having to lose some weight before the cruise. I do not know what the USMC regs are on this, but his appearance was a credit to his former service. I wore my mess blues once while on active duty leave during a cruise. I am a bit conflicted because I do not want to look like I am showboating, but I am proud of my service and think wearing of mess blues on formal occasions can be a good way to turn the conversation to our current service members serving in dangerous parts of the world. I think I will lose some weight and wear the old mess blues on an upcoming cruise. If I don't represent my former service admirably, I won't wear them. As far as AR 670-1 and it not being a military related event, what are they going to do, kick me out of the Army?

 

You are answering a thread that is almost five YEARS old!

[Bonnie J.]

My Husband could not join any military force. He had Polio in 1949 and has a result has two different shoe and leg sizes. I think he was 4F.

 

We were glad at the time because this was when men were drafted and the Vietnam war was going on. (We had 1 then 2 boys then). We had friends who never came back.

 

We now live very close to Camp LeJeune and also Cherry Point. Both are Marine bases but different. (One has new Marines the other only pilots for marine aviation).

 

You would be amazed at all the welcome home Desert Storm Marines got and all the Marines get when they come home. People stood with the American flag when the troops were bused by from our port. One elementary school had their students on the hospital grounds when our Marines went by!

 

All our TV stations report when any Marines come home with pictures of wifes hugging husband and the same with woman Marines.

 

This area on the NC coast is very proud of all Military and we make sure they know it!

 

We always let all Military know how much we thank them.!

[sft429]

You are answering a thread that is almost five YEARS old!

 

So?? I didn't see it 5 years ago and enjoyed reading it all today.

[SPacificbound]

We have seen all kinds of Military Dress Uniforms on our various cruises (more then 3 years of cruising) from both the US and Europe. As a Vietnam Vet (the forgotten ones) I always make it my practice to thank those guys (have never seen a female wearing a uniform aboard a cruise) for their service and complement them for wearing the uniform.

 

Hank

 

My DH and his brother are both Vietnam vets also.

 

Thank you.

[Kamloops50]

We were on one cruise. A group officers from different armed services and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. On formal all the officers wore their mess dress uniforms. The best mess dress was the Canadians outfit.

He wore a red serge jacket with black pants with a vertical yellow strip on both legs. This with knee leather riding boots with riding spurs. He also wore a Mounties hat.