Why Ban e-Cigarettes?

[Paul65]

Since this question seemed to come up frequently in the other thread about the upcoming changes to the smoking policy on RCCL, I thought it might deserve a separate thread.

 

I'm not anti-e-cigs, but I thought I'd at least give my opinion on why they might be lumped in with cigarettes:

 

- The safety of e-cigs is not that well known. What little study has been done has shown that at least some of the cartridges used in these devices contain hazardous and carcinogenic chemicals. It is not just water vapor, as many people believe. Some also contain nicotine derived from tobacco and containing many of the same chemicals found in cigarettes (but not the tars). I think this is likely the primary reason.

 

- Unless you're looking closely, smoking an e-cig looks about the same as smoking a regular cigarette. There's probably some consideration for not wanting to deal with the hassle of complaints about smoking leading to staff having to check to see if it's really smoking or e-smoking.

 

Of course, I don't know what went into RCI's decision making, this is just my speculation on the reasons.

[FLACRUISER99]

Since this question seemed to come up frequently in the other thread about the upcoming changes to the smoking policy on RCCL, I thought it might deserve a separate thread.

 

I'm not anti-e-cigs, but I thought I'd at least give my opinion on why they might be lumped in with cigarettes:

 

- The safety of e-cigs is not that well known. What little study has been done has shown that at least some of the cartridges used in these devices contain hazardous and carcinogenic chemicals. It is not just water vapor, as many people believe. Some also contain nicotine derived from tobacco and containing many of the same chemicals found in cigarettes (but not the tars). I think this is likely the primary reason.

 

- Unless you're looking closely, smoking an e-cig looks about the same as smoking a regular cigarette. There's probably some consideration for not wanting to deal with the hassle of complaints about smoking leading to staff having to check to see if it's really smoking or e-smoking.

 

Of course, I don't know what went into RCI's decision making, this is just my speculation on the reasons.

That makes sense to me.

[leaveitallbehind]

Very well described and from my understanding accurate. And also I suspect true that most people aren't aware that it is more than water vapor that is given off with some products.

[robsaw]

The OP basically has it correct. No e-cigs, as far as I am aware, have been evaluated or approved by any regulatory agency for safety or efficacy. In particular, there are some known claims about the safety of various ingredients in the cartridges that are misleading if not grossly erroneous. For instance, for the ones that do contain nicotine, the sale of such cartridges is wholly illegal in many countries as it qualifies as a pharmaceutical delivery device and cannot be sold without approval. For those that are supposedly inert, some contain so-called "safe" chemicals as stabilizers and preservatives but at least a few of those are only approved as FOOD additives for ingestion by mouth not for vapourization into the lungs, where the safety is unevaluated.

[Rufferto]

I agree with the OP. A third reason I thought of is that it might encourage regular cig smokers to light up in restricted areas.

If a regular smoker sees someone with an e-cigarette, they may not realize that it is an e-cig. They may then think that it is ok to smoke or figure that the rules about smoking are not enforced and light up anyway.

 

I can understand RCCL's position. They just don't want to be the first to create a new policy on something that is not yet medically tested.

[cruisegal3]

I agree with the OP. A third reason I thought of is that it might encourage regular cig smokers to light up in restricted areas.

If a regular smoker sees someone with an e-cigarette, they may not realize that it is an e-cig. They may then think that it is ok to smoke or figure that the rules about smoking are not enforced and light up anyway.

 

I can understand RCCL's position. They just don't want to be the first to create a new policy on something that is not yet medically tested.

 

They wouldn't be first. Princess allows ecigs everywhere on their ships except Theatre and MDR.

[MMOMOM]

I didn't read anything in the new ruling posted regarding e-cigs on balconies. I would also like to add, if one is on the balcony and is using an e-cig and the person right next to them cannot smell it (there is no odor) and the very brief 'water vapor puff' immediately disappears, evaporates, does not linger or drift anywhere ... it's gone, (much like what you see in shows, dry ice, etc.) .... just how could anyone on the next balcony possibly be affected .... or even 'know' for that matter? Unless of course they are on the cruise strictly to monitor everyone else's behavior and place Police .... 'Just sayin'!! LOL! But seriously, I really want to know what everyone's complaint would be in that situation. Because I can't think of one! :confused:

[Camlott]

Doesn't seem to be a problem for Princess. :rolleyes:

 

This seems like a reasonable compromise... I am not one to say I'm never cruising RCI again (my favorite cruise line). But I can guaranty you that Princess will earn at least some of my business because of the RCI change.

 

Here is the Princess e-cig policy with added emphasis:

Electronic Cigarettes

The use of electronic cigarettes is permitted in all areas onboard with the exception of dining areas and the Princess Theater. However, should a fellow passenger in the vicinity feel inconvenienced and complain, even after being told the difference between electronic cigarettes and real cigarettes, we will ask the passenger to refrain from smoking the electronic cigarette.

[Paul65]

I didn't read anything in the new ruling posted regarding e-cigs on balconies. I would also like to add, if one is on the balcony and is using an e-cig and the person right next to them cannot smell it (there is no odor) and the very brief 'water vapor puff' immediately disappears, evaporates, does not linger or drift anywhere ... it's gone, (much like what you see in shows, dry ice, etc.) .... just how could anyone on the next balcony possibly be affected .... or even 'know' for that matter? Unless of course they are on the cruise strictly to monitor everyone else's behavior and place Police .... 'Just sayin'!! LOL! But seriously, I really want to know what everyone's complaint would be in that situation. Because I can't think of one! :confused:

 

The new policy states "Electronic cigarettes or e-cigarettes are only permitted within the designated smoking areas."

 

The rest of your post is based on common misconceptions about e-cigs. They are not odor free (but they only have a faint and relatively pleasant odor, compared to tobacco smoke, at least in limited experience) and the chemicals in the vapor cartridges don't simply "disappear."

[leaveitallbehind]

I didn't read anything in the new ruling posted regarding e-cigs on balconies. I would also like to add, if one is on the balcony and is using an e-cig and the person right next to them cannot smell it (there is no odor) and the very brief 'water vapor puff' immediately disappears, evaporates, does not linger or drift anywhere ... it's gone, (much like what you see in shows, dry ice, etc.) .... just how could anyone on the next balcony possibly be affected .... or even 'know' for that matter? Unless of course they are on the cruise strictly to monitor everyone else's behavior and place Police .... 'Just sayin'!! LOL! But seriously, I really want to know what everyone's complaint would be in that situation. Because I can't think of one! :confused:

 

Following are excerpts from the new smoking policy on RCI pertaining to e-cigarettes. As they clearly define e-cigarettes as one of the items allowed to be smoked on board it would follow that when defining areas that do not allow smoking - such as balconies - that e-cigarettes would be included in that ban. No smoking would IMO clearly refer to all items defined as permitted in smoking areas. I would think exceptions - such as e-cigarettes - would be noted as such.

 

Cigarette, cigar, e-cigarette and pipe smoking is permitted in designated outdoor areas of the starboard side of all ships; with the exception of Oasis-class ships that will allow smoking on the port side of the ships. To assist in locating areas where smoking is permitted, guests will find visible signage posted within all smoking areas and ashtrays that are provided for use. Outdoor areas near restricted areas, food venues, and kids play areas and pools will not allow smoking. On Oasis class, smoking is not permitted in Central Park or the Boardwalk neighborhoods.

 

Smoking is not permitted inside any stateroom and any stateroom balcony. This applies to all stateroom categories onboard.

[MMOMOM]

The new policy states "Electronic cigarettes or e-cigarettes are only permitted within the designated smoking areas."

 

The rest of your post is based on common misconceptions about e-cigs. They are not odor free (but they only have a faint and relatively pleasant odor, compared to tobacco smoke, at least in limited experience) and the chemicals in the vapor cartridges don't simply "disappear."

 

Uh .... no offense intended, but I'd like to know your experience because I have a lot and you are the one with the misconceptions. Both those statements are false. And that is exactly why there are always so many problems on this topic. Seems everyone is an 'expert' and many don't seem to have any tolerance for anything other than their own behaviors and opinions. And you still didn't answer my question, you just wanted to jump right down my throat with your ideas :( .... how could it affect anyone in the next balcony and how would they even know? I'm making popcorn now, so that's all I have to say! :)

[retiredgram]

The new policy states "Electronic cigarettes or e-cigarettes are only permitted within the designated smoking areas."

 

The rest of your post is based on common misconceptions about e-cigs. They are not odor free (but they only have a faint and relatively pleasant odor, compared to tobacco smoke, at least in limited experience) and the chemicals in the vapor cartridges don't simply "disappear."

Yes you can smell them, like you posted. I was in line to pick up a Rx at Costco and kept smelling something strange. I looked around and finally saw a young guy waiting for Rx smoking an e-cig. I just couldn't help but wonder why he could not wait until he left the building.

[brigittetom]

Regarding cruising....the big complaint is that non smokers are offended by the smell of smoke and second hand smoke. E-cigs have neither....so, what's the complaint now? I think it's totally wrong to expect people to use e-cigs in smoking designated areas because some non smoker across the room is going to be offended by the sight of it. What do they do if someone is sucking on a straw?

 

I have a plastic cylinder that holds a mint flavored cartridge. No battery, no vapor, no nothing. Is that going to be banned because it looks offensive? If you go there, there's going to be a lot of territory to cover. :)

[mjldvlks]

 

- Unless you're looking closely, smoking an e-cig looks about the same as smoking a regular cigarette. There's probably some consideration for not wanting to deal with the hassle of complaints about smoking leading to staff having to check to see if it's really smoking or e-smoking.

 

. . .

 

 

. . . If a regular smoker sees someone with an e-cigarette, they may not realize that it is an e-cig. They may then think that it is ok to smoke or figure that the rules about smoking are not enforced and light up anyway. . . .

 

These are the two that make the most sense to me from what I imagine would be a cruise management point of view.

 

And to elaborate on Paul's suggestion, I wonder if they will treat it like they do the ban on non-alcoholic beverages. They may be lax in enforcing it, but it is there if they don't want to hassle with actually making the call -- just as they seem stricter enforcing the ban on soda during Spring break and other times when alcohol smuggling may be expected to peek.

[orville99]

Unfortunately, there are a variety of "juices" available on the market that range from what we use (no smell) to flavors like cotton candy and buttered popcorn. If someone is using one of the flavored juices, they can easily be smelled and can become quite offensive (not nearly as bad as people who bathe in cologne, however)

 

The other problem is the idiot manufacturers who came up with the brilliant idea to make these PV's (BTW, that's the technical term - Personal Vaporizer) look as close as possible to real cigarettes - right down to the texture of the barrel, the color of the cartridge, and the orange glowing LED on the end. Anyone who saw you vaping one of those would assume it was a real cigarette, and would complain to staff. So, to avoid the complaints and having to explain, the whole portfolio of styles and juices is banned. I know of at least one RCL Master who is an avid PV user.

 

We've had people walk right by us and complain to someone vaping an analog clone, while completely ignoring our PVs - why, because ours look absolutely nothing like a cigarette, and we use unflavored juice.

[CleoPat]

Hmmm, since the "smoke" doesn't linger or smell so much, one could actually "smoke" an e-cig in one's cabin and no one would know.... therefore, no need to "bother" anyone on the next balcony with the "smoke".....

 

Most people use these to try to quit smoking, so give them some slack. They are trying to quit, so I'm sure they would not want to go in the "smoking" areas .. they might as well light up a real one if they go there;)

[Goes Cruising]

As a non-smoker, I haven't given e-cigarettes much thought. I have seen them in use in public places where smoking wasn't allowed (like a couple in the solarium smoking), and at 1st was a bit taken back. If I had smelled it, and it was offensive, I would have squawked, but i could not detect a smell.

 

But, poking around on the internet a bit since this subject has become so controversial on CC, I think RCCL has decided to ban them to head off numerous other problems that will have to be controlled later on.

 

In addition to all of the excellent reasons posted by the OP, I have been enlightened that in addition to the vapor containing numerous measurable carcinogens, used e-cigarettes pose another potential risk to non-users. They are being reused to vaporize marijuana, or more technically, hash oil.

 

So now, another dilemma created. Allowing unrestricted use of e-cigarettes may be introducing 2nd hand vapor containing particles of illegal substances. The article I read indicates the equivalent of a quarter ounce can be contained in a single e-cigarette, so guests could actually smuggle large quantities undetected.

 

This may all be far fetched, but it seems like more trouble for RCCL than it's worth to try accommodate displaced smokers by treating e-cigarettes different than cigarettes. The policy change is a reaction to the demands of the majority, which is good business sense.

 

I have to say, one e-cigarette smoker - I couldn't care less. I do not believe I will suffer damage. A plane full of e-cigarette smokers with recirculated air - I may have some concerns knowing what I have just learned in a bit of research.

 

Trust me, as more becomes known about the risks associated with e-cigarettes, us whiny non-smokers will be heard. I suspect it will be so much easier for RCCL to rip off the bandaid all at once.

[Paul65]

Uh .... no offense intended, but I'd like to know your experience because I have a lot and you are the one with the misconceptions. Both those statements are false. And that is exactly why there are always so many problems on this topic. Seems everyone is an 'expert' and many don't seem to have any tolerance for anything other than their own behaviors and opinions. And you still didn't answer my question, you just wanted to jump right down my throat with your ideas :( .... how could it affect anyone in the next balcony and how would they even know? I'm making popcorn now, so that's all I have to say! :)

 

Personally, I don't have a big problem with someone using an e-cig on their balcony, but they are not completely odorless, so your premise that it would be impossible to even know is based on one of your misconceptions.

 

I don't believe I jumped down your throat, though. I merely pointed out what the RCCL policy said about e-cigs, since you asked, and I corrected your information about the devices.

[erin_cruisers]

I would rather have RCI ban over-use of perfumes than e-cigs.

On a recent HAL cruise, we were knocked flat many times by women who took a bath in foul perfume. :rolleyes:

To the point of needing Benedryl. :cool:

While I strongly dislike actual cigarette smoke, I have never been bothered by someone nearby using their e-cig device.

This is just MHO.

[George C]

Agreed .... and what about the obnoxious drunk??? LOL!

 

I will drink to that

[Bobbyjean]

Good points by the OP. But another reason to ban e-cigarettes is the fact that they mimic real cigarettes.

 

As smoking is becoming "unacceptable" in the collective conscience of our society, an activity that looks almost like smoking will also be perceived to be unacceptable, even if the arguments against it are weak.

 

Essentially it is an emotional reaction to ban them - but a completely understandable one which will affect only a minority of people. They can always use patches or gum if in a tight spot.

[celle]

My DH was a heavy smoker for over 50 years, despite many attempts (using various methods) to stop. Now, thanks to e-cigs, he is at last a non-smoker.

 

Since he has made this effort, it seems unjust to me that on the ship he will be banished to smoke his e-cigs in the areas with cigarette smokers, where he will be condemned to inhale their second-hand smoke. He stopped smoking to avoid the dangers of smoking.

 

By the way, his e-cigs only have a minimal smell and almost no visible vapour. I can sit one yard away from him and not be aware that he is puffing, unless I look at him. And they glow green, not red, when he puffs on them.

[BND]

CBS just did a story tonight on e-cigs. The biggest issues are that they are not regulated and there are hazardous substances in them. The story really is about teens using them but goes on to talk about how much is not known about them. Teens are lying about their age (shock huh?) to order them online.

 

Here's the link to the story: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57601549/e-cigarette-use-doubles-among-teen-students-cdc-reports/

 

So, don't assume just because they are "electronic" that they are safe. There has been concern for sometime over them both here and abroad.

 

But, I also think RCI is including them because you can't tell if they're e-cigs or real ones unless you get really close. The staff doesn't need to be constantly checking on what is reported to be someone smoking in a non-smoking area. That's what I think their reasoning is.

[north29]

Several mom and pop restaurants in my area have banned the use of e cigs on their property and these cater to the crowd that smokes. I guess the enforcement of the no smoking in the restaurant and in door ways was a PITA to enforce. The funny part is that they are still packed with smokers, who light up as soon as they get to their trucks. I should mention, one place is the best breakfast place in town.

[orville99]

Government entities won't endorse PV's until they can figure out how to tax them:)