remuneration for an extremely bad cruise

[MermaidWatcher]

I disagree. They did not receive $1700, they got $600 OBC and $550 each future cruise credit. So they actually got the actual benefit of $600. In order to benefit from the $550 each, they are required to spend more money with HAL. After 10 days without a/c, the OP may not want to spend any more money with HAL. So the daily unencumbered reduction to them was $60, or $30 per person presuming two people in the cabin. That doesn't seem at all adequate IMHO.

 

Thank you.... another person who understands that you have not been "compensated" when the offer requires that you spend even more money with a merchant that has just intentionally taken advantage of you. They can only be truly compensated with a full cash refund, IMO. If the equipment has failed during the cruise, it would have to be categorized as an unfortunate mechanical breakdown, and I would consider some form of credit to be an option, but to have been knowingly put in cabins without working AC (and a well documented history of this) is completely callous and shows utter contempt for the customer. As I said in an earlier post, I hope folks here keep this topic front and center until HAL realizes the bad PR is not worth it, and truly compensates all those affected.

Edited November 24, 2013 by MermaidWatcher

[kazu]

Why didn't they ask to be put off the ship ASAP if this was such a 100% intolerable situation?

 

Some how they managed to enjoy the rest of the ship's offerings, and while still having an uncomfortable cabin for the hours they were using it. I agree, this was a bummer. But stand back a little and think about what type of compensation would make this whole again …at this late date. Under the terms of the cruise contract they signed. And the compensation they at the time were willing to accept. It has to bear some relationship to the damages suffered.

 

I often think of the conditions pre-A/C passengers, willing passengers, put up with and sure, I hate hot cabins as much as everyone else, but this was not really the end of the world that requires HAL meet some extraordinary, but yet unstated demand.

 

Just trying to bring this after the fact lynching into some realm of reality. Badly.

 

I always thought I was an optimist until I read this post :rolleyes:;)

 

Ask to be put off??? What are they going to do?? I'm sure they had other flights arranged. They wouldn't get a refund so why wouldn't they follow up and try to get it rectified?

 

Honestly, let's use some common sense here. If they had a suite, then they would have expected to be able to spend more time in their room.

 

I DO think A/C is a standard requirement and it should be met. It's as simple as that. If a room is not comfortable to be in, it's not much fun.

 

Was the compensation enough? I don't know. somehow I think not. But I wasn't on the cruise.

 

All I know is that I hope it never happens to us.

 

And certainly not to you - otherwise your own words may come back to bite you ;)

[tangerinebunny]

If you were told at the dock that the AC was out in your cabin and HAL was willing to refund your cruise and pay the cost of airfare changes, would you take it? I would.

[OlsSalt]

I always thought I was an optimist until I read this post :rolleyes:;)

 

Ask to be put off??? What are they going to do?? I'm sure they had other flights arranged. They wouldn't get a refund so why wouldn't they follow up and try to get it rectified?

 

Honestly, let's use some common sense here. If they had a suite, then they would have expected to be able to spend more time in their room.

 

I DO think A/C is a standard requirement and it should be met. It's as simple as that. If a room is not comfortable to be in, it's not much fun.

 

Was the compensation enough? I don't know. somehow I think not. But I wasn't on the cruise.

 

All I know is that I hope it never happens to us.

 

And certainly not to you - otherwise your own words may come back to bite you ;)

 

Why is the entire full fare just compensation when they availed themselves of many benefits included in the full fare price? It could happen to anyone which is why this discussion if it can remain neutral is productive. What is good compensation and what are reasonable alternatives, including being asked to be flown back home ASAP. I am sure HAL corporate is struggling with this one too. As they should. It would be nice if the captain could weigh in on this discussion. This was under his control.

Edited November 24, 2013 by OlsSalt

[iancal]

From my perspective, HAL did not deliver on the most basic of this cruiser's expectations, let alone the so called Signature of Excellence.

 

What makes matter worse, in my view, is that HAL continues to sell these substandard cabins in the full knowledge that they are deficient-and deficient by a long shot.

 

An OBC is of little consolation. IMHO, HAL should be liable to a full refund. Unfortunately, cruise lines are outside the reach of most litigation..and when they are it is a very expensive and specialized task.

 

I don't think HAL really cares. Their approach seems to be sell the cabin and if only absolutely necessary hand our some 'shut up and go away' OBC's to those that complain the loudest.

[OlsSalt]

From my perspective, HAL did not deliver on the most basic of this cruiser's expectations, let alone the so called Signature of Excellence.

 

What makes matter worse, in my view, is that HAL continues to sell these substandard cabins in the full knowledge that they are deficient-and deficient by a long shot.

 

An OBC is of little consolation. IMHO, HAL should be liable to a full refund. Unfortunately, cruise lines are outside the reach of most litigation..and when they are it is a very expensive and specialized task.

 

I don't think HAL really cares. Their approach seems to be sell the cabin and if only absolutely necessary hand our some 'shut up and go away' OBC's to those that complain the loudest.

 

Small claims court in many states can be a route to attempt to recover damages. Limit is $10,000 in Calif times two passengers means $20,000 a couple can be requested. If you paid for the cruise from your state and you did not get what you paid for then the breach occurred in your state. Worth looking in to and seeing what you can do for little out of pocket costs. But this is also why you need some objective criteria for damages requested so you have a bargaining range for compensation if offered less than full fare refund.

 

I don't believe there is any contractual language guaranteeing exact room and humidity settings. But for anyone who needs to have this confirmed, might be a good idea to set this out ahead of time before signing up. Makes it easier if there is another failure.

 

But really the "fraud in the inducement" is the stronger case - proving HAL knowingly sold defective goods.

Edited November 24, 2013 by OlsSalt

[OlsSalt]

Here is HAL's published mission statement. Honesty is one of their sustaining values. Showing they were intentionally dishonest in this transaction selling known defective goods as "signature of excellence" goods is a compelling case.

 

 

Our Mission

 

Through excellence we create once-in-a-lifetime experiences, every time.

 

 

Uncompromising Commitment to Safety and Sustainability

 

We have a great responsibility to safeguard the well-being of people and the oceans we sail upon. Ongoing training and adherence to rigorous standards are vital to preserving and protecting our guests, our employees and the environment.

 

 

Focus on Performance and Results

 

The foundation of Holland America Line's success always has been and continues to be a focus on performance and results.

 

 

Committed to Service Excellence

 

Striving for and achieving excellence in all aspects of company operations is a key ingredient of our culture and our success.

 

 

Integrity, Honesty and Ethics

 

Integrity, honesty and ethics guide Holland America Line on all levels, from individual employees to the company as a whole. We not only do things right, we do the right things.

 

 

Team Together, Team Apart

 

As a global company, Holland America Line is challenged by the many miles that separate the parts of our team. With employees located throughout the world, we are committed to working together and sharing a common goal and vision.

 

 

Embrace Change and Improvement

 

Holland America Line must change and evolve in order to remain viable and competitive.

 

Maintain Optimism and Perspective

 

We strive to recognize the valuable contribution of our employees and embrace their diversity as we make every effort to strike a positive and healthy balance between personal life and professional goals.

[cruz chic]

Am I understanding correctly that OBC can be taken as cash? I thought we had to spend it on board. duh!

 

It depends on the obc. It was a use it or lose it situation on my last cruise.

[MermaidWatcher]

Why didn't they ask to be put off the ship ASAP if this was such a 100% intolerable situation? Surely the ship's doctor could have intervened for them in this matter if it was such a significant health risk for them as stated.

Because most, if not all, of them were probably not aware that this had in fact been an issue for the three prior sailings, and that they were being blatantly lied to about it being fixed shortly. The ship's doctor...are you serious, who signs his paychecks ?

Some how they managed to enjoy the rest of the ship's offerings, and while still having an uncomfortable cabin for the hours they were using it. I agree, this was a bummer.

 

But stand back a little and think about what type of compensation would make this whole again …at this late date.

That is easy for me...nothing short of a full refund. Not some phony credits, on board or otherwise.

 

Under the terms of the cruise contract they signed. And the compensation they at the time were willing to accept. It has to bear some relationship to the damages suffered.

 

I often think of the conditions pre-A/C passengers, willing passengers, put up with and sure, I hate hot cabins as much as everyone else, but this was not really the end of the world that requires HAL meet some extraordinary, but yet unstated demand.

I do not consider it "extraordinary" to be refunded my money when I was intentionally given a defective product. If I was told about the lack of AC, and accepted some offered compensation before sailing, that is my choice. But all indications here are that these customers had no choice, because HAL had already made their choice...to lie willingly and continuously

 

Just trying to bring this after the fact lynching into some realm of reality. Badly. The real point is discussing when renumeration is offered (cash and/or kind) what is a good deal and what is not so there is no buyers remorse at a low-ball offer and when to put it to rest that one was made whole again. Benchmarks.

I hardly consider it an "after the fact lynching" when the contempt they have shown for customers paying for premium cabins is so blatant.

Edited November 24, 2013 by MermaidWatcher

[luxurysailer]

What was your suite #. I wish people would include cabin/suite numbers so we on upcoming cruises can hopefully avoid them or at least go with updated knowledge.

 

Thanks

 

It seems to me that posts about trouble with Zuiderdam occur more often than any other ship in the fleet. We experienced multiple problems on our cruise on this ship.

 

My suggestion is to avoid Zuiderdam like the plague.

[CowPrincess]

 

Why is the entire full fare just compensation when they availed themselves of many benefits included in the full fare price?

 

>SNIP<

 

 

 

The "many benefits" would be absolutely useless to me if my cabin was so uncomfortably hot I could not sleep. There'd be ZERO enjoyment of much on the ship, except perhaps the opportunity to sit in an air-conditioned lounge. I'd be crabby, uncomfortable, nauseated, my feet would be swollen, and overall it would not feel like any kind of vacation.

 

As pointed out, if these people were in a SUITE I would expect they had planned to enjoy time in their SUITE.

 

We endured part of one night without A/C in an oceanview room, and it was appalling. If they had not fixed it almost as soon as it occurred, I'm fairly confident we would have left the ship at the first port, and never sailed HAL again.

[iancal]

Perhaps some of the HAL management should read refresh themselves with the Mission Statement. I have worked for a few firms with very impressive Mission Statements. Sometimes there is quite a difference between that and reality-for employees and customers.

 

For many, a ruined cruise is not just about some form of partial reimbursement. For many it comes down to a waste of valuable vacation time. For others, lots of dollars are spent on transportation to the port. We are about to spend about $3500. in air fare and hotel just to get to the embarkation port and then home again.

 

My standard is someone who has saved their money for a long time to take the cruise of their dreams...perhaps a special anniversary. Only to discover that the dream is a stuffy cabin with no air conditioning or ventilation.

 

A fan and an OBC is no consolation for knowingly selling this couple a sub standard cabin and vacation.

[OlsSalt]

The "many benefits" would be absolutely useless to me if my cabin was so uncomfortably hot I could not sleep. There'd be ZERO enjoyment of much on the ship, except perhaps the opportunity to sit in an air-conditioned lounge. I'd be crabby, uncomfortable, nauseated, my feet would be swollen, and overall it would not feel like any kind of vacation.

 

As pointed out, if these people were in a SUITE I would expect they had planned to enjoy time in their SUITE.

 

We endured part of one night without A/C in an oceanview room, and it was appalling. If they had not fixed it almost as soon as it occurred, I'm fairly confident we would have left the ship at the first port, and never sailed HAL again.

 

Exactly, which is why this needs to be put on the table upfront. Demand to be put off the ship. And use the ship's doctor if necessary. Even if you think he/she won't help you. At least you did your part to document your distress.

 

However, in any case one does have to hear both sides of the story. Which is why getting the captains take on the condition of the cabins on his ship is critical. And the Hotel Managers attempts to remedy this situation; not just the Front Desk conversations.

[OlsSalt]

It seems to me that posts about trouble with Zuiderdam occur more often than any other ship in the fleet. We experienced multiple problems on our cruise on this ship.

 

My suggestion is to avoid Zuiderdam like the plague.

 

This seems to be the general consensus, except for the member reviews about this ship pretty much at the same time.

[OlsSalt]

Still looking to see how the case can be made that HAL "knowingly" sold these cabins. Wish we could hear from the other side, to see what they offer in their defense.

 

Mission statements can be used against an organization because they become part of the "implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing" in any contract.

 

Two issues here: suffering a hot cabin and being knowingly sold a defective cabin. Build your facts for both.

[Gerko]

I wonder when people constantly refer to the air-con on HAL whether they mean it isn't working at all or isn't working sufficiently. The cabin air-con even when working perfectly on HAL is pretty poor. We always board and immediately switch the the aircon to its lowest setting where it stays the whole cruise, and that makes the room just about cool enough to sleep comfortably. So whilst we're used to it now, a new cruiser might think the air-con is not working properly when it is just because it doesn't cool the cabin like your air-con at hime might do. I'd love to know which was the case for the people who started this thread. Surely if there was no air-con at all whilst cruising at the equator the cabin would have been too unbearable to stay in?

 

The loos breaking down is a constant annoyance on every ship. Luckily I've never copped it for more than a few hours although have copped it many times. Don't like to throw stones but the crew have told me on many occasions its the ladies who are the greatest offenders at blocking the plumbing.

 

Of the things that happen on cruises, the loos are caused usualy by passengers, as is most outbreaks of novoviruses, so you cannot really blame the cruiseline for those. They don't want these things to happen either. No company wants hundreds of unhappy customers on their hands, returning home only to spread bad reviews about their cruise. I guess we're either lucky or easy going because in thirty cruises the biggest complaints we've ever put forward were poor security on P & O and that was a decade ago, and a particularly dreadful entertainer on a recent ship. We've even received complimentary OBC, along with others, for things we didn't think were bad, such as a changed itinerary due to weather.Touch wood it stays that way.

[OlsSalt]

Taken from a recent Panama Zuiderdam review on CC "Members Reviews" (bolding added):

 

We just returned on November 8th from a Panama Canal cruise on MS Zuiderdam. We were in Suite 7065, right across from the Neptune Lounge and had minimal air conditioning the entire cruise. What should've been an awesome cruise was diminished quite a bit by the discomfort we experienced.

 

The concierge ladies were quite sympathetic but said that the engineers had told them that there was nothing that could be done, that the a/c was operating at full capacity.

 

Since there was barely a whisper of air coming out of either of the vents, we found that awfully hard to believe.

 

Tests were performed three times daily that indicated that our room was two degrees less than the "Acceptable Range". The solution was to give us an oscillating fan which effectively did nothing except keep the air moving.

 

When we showered, the cabin was almost unbearably warm and we started perspiring as soon as we got out of the shower. And this was showering with cool water!!

 

We were interested to learn that many others were experiencing a/c problems; DH saw the concierge's list and it seemed as though there were at least 10 suites having problems and were being checked several times each day.

 

Since this was not a new problem to the ship, why has it not been taken care of?? How can HAL allow this sort of situation to continue, especially in light of what we and others paid to go on this cruise?

[iancal]

I am shocked that anyone would suggest that HAL is not knowingly selling cabins with no A/C. Sorry, that is too much of a stretch for me.

 

Apart from the fact that they do read CC where there have been many, many ongoing reports, I have no doubt that the engineering crews must get tired of filling out deficiency reports on the same cabins cruise after cruise. Same for the front desk crew when the provide an OBC etc...unless they just mark it down as a customer sat issue with no additional data.

 

I do not believe that anyone reading the HAL CC board could come to the conclusion that HAL does not know. The only question that remains is if they cannot remedy it, why do they continue to sell the cabins cruise after cruise, after cruise.

 

Perhaps they should take some time and read their own Mission Statement.

 

And 'willful blindness' does not cut it for me.

Edited November 25, 2013 by iancal

[startwin]

Thank you.... another person who understands that you have not been "compensated" when the offer requires that you spend even more money with a merchant that has just intentionally taken advantage of you. They can only be truly compensated with a full cash refund, IMO. If the equipment has failed during the cruise, it would have to be categorized as an unfortunate mechanical breakdown, and I would consider some form of credit to be an option, but to have been knowingly put in cabins without working AC (and a well documented history of this) is completely callous and shows utter contempt for the customer. As I said in an earlier post, I hope folks here keep this topic front and center until HAL realizes the bad PR is not worth it, and truly compensates all those affected.

 

I totally agree with you too, and I've my own issues on the Zuiderdam, though I continue to book that ship because of the itinerary. You just have to stop biting back at the person who is making multiple posts on all threads such as this.:rolleyes:

 

And to the poster who said an engineer blames the ladies for toilet issues - pardon my pun but that is a load of crap.:D I can attest to that myself having become very good friends with the plumber on my cruise, LOL. There are deficiencies with the vacuum pumps. Two (or it might have been 3) were replaced during our Panama cruise, but they still continued to have problems in areas throughout the ship.

[innlady1]

I guess we were lucky, Yonnie....

Edited November 25, 2013 by innlady1

[peaches from georgia]

If you were told at the dock that the AC was out in your cabin and HAL was willing to refund your cruise and pay the cost of airfare changes, would you take it? I would.

Yes, without a doubt. DH cannot sleep without AC. Don't you think when a steward is making up the bed and cleaning the cabin for the next guests about to board and the present occupant who sweltered all week in that cabin is still there waiting to disembark, that is pretty much proof HAL is 'knowingly' selling a defective cabin? Those saying HAL may not know about the problem cabins are either naïve of how cruiselines operate or are super-cheerleaders who will excuse anything. Remember the thread about the balcony door that leaked water into the cabin and the steward admitted the carpet had been soaked and smelly for weeks? That's 'knowingly' showing contempt for your customer. And don't start me on the 'future cruise credit' con game!

Edited November 25, 2013 by peaches from georgia

[bcscot]

And to the poster who said an engineer blames the ladies for toilet issues - pardon my pun but that is a load of crap.:D I can attest to that myself having become very good friends with the plumber on my cruise, LOL. There are deficiencies with the vacuum pumps. Two (or it might have been 3) were replaced during our Panama cruise, but they still continued to have problems in areas throughout the ship.[/quote

On our recent Rotterdam cruise, we had the delayed flush for the whole cruise, the toilet blocked easily and on one occasion, it overflowed onto the floor, when no one was there. The same plumbers could be seen visiting lots of cabins in that section of the ship during the entire 21 day cruise, so I suspect that others were having toilet problems too. The public toilets around the ship were also frequently closed for maintenance. I do not believe that these toilet problems were all caused by careless passengers. There seemed to be an on going toilet issue around the ship.

We have been unfortunate in experiencing lots of A/C and ventilation problems on HAL ships over the years, but this is the first time that we have had significant plumbing issues.

[IRL_Joanie]

............That before those of you scheduled to cruise on or after 9 December 2013 cancel or change your cruises on Zuiderdam that you wait until Next Saturday 30 November to make your decision(s)?

 

Hubby and I will be able to scope out if all of the reported AC Problems are still prevalent as reported. And I will try to get a listing of the staterooms affected (if there are any). Not saying there are not, nor saying they are. Just going full strength in a nd taking to the Officers I know who will have the answers for me:)

 

We will post on Saturday 30 November while tendered at Half Moon Cay.

 

Believe me, if, as reported the aft is affected, I will know Friday when I board and will report my stateroom findings as either acceptably cool or not for SC 6166.

 

Joanie

[peaches from georgia]

............

Hubby and I will be able to scope out if all of the reported AC Problems are still prevalent as reported. And I will try to get a listing of the staterooms affected (if there are any). Not saying there are not, nor saying they are. Just going full strength in a nd taking to the Officers I know who will have the answers for me:)........

 

 

Joanie

And you are fully confident that the officers you talk to are going to be truthful about any and all problems with the ship's operating systems, much less give you stateroom #s. Why would they?

[sapper1]

Still looking to see how the case can be made that HAL "knowingly" sold these cabins. Wish we could hear from the other side, to see what they offer in their defense.

 

Mission statements can be used against an organization because they become part of the "implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing" in any contract.

 

Two issues here: suffering a hot cabin and being knowingly sold a defective cabin. Build your facts for both.

 

There have been so many reports of air conditioning failures on the Zuiderdam over the last two years that HAL must have heard the odd rumour by now. :rolleyes: If they have heard the rumours and have done nothing to remedy the situation, then they are knowingly selling the defective cabins.