Bad Economy Or Too Many Ships?

[cruisemom42]

I'm surprised that you are commenting on the food. I have sailed hal, princess, celebrity and carnival. Without a doubt, the most limited menus were on celebrity. In addition, the food was either really good or really bad. I have zero desire to try celebrity again.

 

I was on Silhouette for New Year's last year. I thought the menus were very comparable to both HAL and Princess in terms of selection. My son and I both thought the food in the MDR wasn't bad. We went to a specialty restaurant one night and enjoyed it, but both of us felt there was not a need to go a second night, as we were enjoying the MDR food and setting.

 

For example, on HAL's MDR dinner menu (I'm not taking into account very recent changes to the menu), there have been, by my count:

 

5 "Everyday" menu items, of which 3 are entrees, 1 is a soup and 1 is a salad

 

4 Appetizers

 

4 Soup or salad selections

 

7 Entrée items (including 1-2 Vegetarian options)

 

 

And on Celebrity's MDR dinner menu:

 

10 "Everyday" menu items, of which 3 are entrees, 3 are apps, and 4 are soup/salad (and 3 desserts)

 

4 Appetizers

 

5 Soup or salad selections

 

6 Entrée items (including 1 Vegetarian option)

 

 

For lunches, I generally eat in the buffet area of whatever ship I am on, and again I felt Celebrity's offerings were more varied than HAL's, with an Asian food section and a Southwestern section that featured different items daily, as well as all the usual carving station, entrees, salads, etc.

 

On Celebrity, I also enjoyed the fresh sushi that was available mid- to late afternoon in the buffet area. I was skeptical initially but it was not bad (and folks were actually lined up for it most days....)

[Despegue]

The latest menus seem to have eliminated one daily changing appetizer leaving passengers with a choice of a fruit plate and two instead of three choices, one of which is often a shrimp cocktail.

It seems that for now, warm appetizers have been eliminated, but time will tell if this a temporary try-out or a permanent cost cutting measure.

[fishin' musician]

My observation and contribution to the afore listed conjecture is that there are a lot of factors keeping HAL Caribbean holiday rates low. The continuing addition of berths due to the introduction of more megaships has to be a factor (it is just supply and demand). Comparatively high air fares will certainly keep some away.

 

One factor I had not considered prior to reading this thread was HAL's marketing. If other lines are offering discounts earlier than HAL, it stands to reason that they will approach and reach capacity sooner and thus eliminate more market.

 

I think the economy plays a lesser role and although weak, it does seem to be pointed in a better direction than it has in several years.

 

As a brand, HAL is uniquely positioned as the most "senior friendly" line. I don't understand why they would not want to continue to take full advantage as the next couple of decades will induce the largest demographic transition in history as boomers become seniors. Seniors are not interested in the flo-riders, climbing walls, etc... Good service, food and price point along with well maintained ships should be all that is required to corral this burgeoning market.

[iancal]

We are part of that transition group. HAL is not doing a very good job lately in appealing to us.

 

We had a great Med cruise on RCI. The ship had a climbing wall. The presence of this feature does not in any way imply the ship will be full party goers. In fact, we NEVER saw anyone on the climbing wall.

 

I keep reading this reference to climbing walls etc. as though this in and of itself implies a different cruise experience.

 

What did appeal to us, other than the usual, with on this ship with a 'climbing wall' .....based on our Celebrity elite status, even though this was only our second RCI cruise and on a balcony gty, we were given Diamond status. Private lounge for breakfast, pre dinner with apps and complementary alcoholic beverages, plus three drinks per day each loaded on our room cards to be used at any bar 5-8PM. Oh, and I forgot, a good concierge who took care of shipboard requests. And elite status on Celebrity is not a big deal..it does not require many cruises.

 

We retired folks will take this kind of ship any day...notwithstanding the climbing wall.

Edited December 8, 2014 by iancal

[igraf]

It is a reference to ships that feature showy glitz as opposed to serene class.

 

igraf

 

 

 

 

...We had a great Med cruise on RCI. The ship had a climbing wall. The presence of this feature does not in any way imply the ship will be full party goers. In fact, we NEVER saw anyone on the climbing wall.

 

I keep reading this reference to climbing walls etc. as though this in and of itself implies a different cruise experience. ....

[iancal]

The ship, Serenade of the Seas, could hardly be called glitzy.

 

In fact, based on the décor, it could have easily passed for a Princess or a Celebrity ship.

 

Was it serene? Well it was not sleepy hollow, no one fell asleep at our MDR table. It appeared to us that the vast majority of people were in their late 50's or older. Probably because it was an Oct. cruise and one prior to a TA.

 

I think that cruise lines who build ships to appeal to multi generations are smart. Ships operate 365 days a year and clearly the demographics change based on time of year. Having a ship, or a fleet of ships, that have a broader appeal should result in higher occupancy rates across the entire year. This may be why HAL bookings are suffering a little this Christmas and during the last several Alaska seasons. It would be different if it was an Oceania, Azamera, etc. with far fewer ships. A mass market cruise line like HAL needs to fill all of those cabins all of the time.

Edited December 8, 2014 by iancal

[Baby sitter grandma]

We are 3 star HAL Mariners. We cruise b2b january 2015. We booked this cruise one year and four months ago. We picked our neptune suite from a limited amount of suites available and in fact did not get the suite we wanted because it was deemed for the first part of the 14 day cruise only. We were told that late dining was wait listed so we picked As you wish dining. We purchased a suite Amenties pkg for out trip. We will order wine pkg(s) once onboard. I tried to book a cabanna only to find they were sold out 4 months ago. Explore 4 was never offered for our cruise..reason capacity controlled was the reason given to me. Prices have not lowered much for our cruise. There is a group scheduled on part of our cruise which has never been told to us although that is not an issue with us at all. We were able to qualify for some OBC on one of the promo due to having a Neptune suite. It feels like we have booked our cruise and then shopped for all the other items that make up the cruise. I have learned a lot on cruise critic. This cruise I know will be a nice cruise even though we will have paid for almost all the little perks that we will enjoy! I just do not want to shop anymore for the perks! We have booked a Crystsl cruise for the Fall. Will we compare....yes. Is it more expensive.....taking everything into account not by a lot. I never ever dreamed that we would sway away...but too many sales over the year and four months that we do not qualify for because we shopped early. We are in our 60's...but we are sort of tired of feeling left out especially of the Explore 4 program not ever being offered on our cruise at all. I think that was the clincher to make us look on the other side of the grass! In all the years we have cruised with HAL exclusively we have never been upgraded except when we have requested it onboard and paid for it. We are not unhappy...we are disillusioned. So after this cruise we are leaving Home and exploring. We think HAL needs to stop having sales every month and have consistent fair prices and the same with promos offering all cruisers the opportunity to book the same Amenties. Final last minute sales are the only way to achieve perks for a relatively low price and not care what cabin you are assigned. This is how I feel.

[MOcruiserman]

I'm not in the travel industry but I've been saying Money is being poured into Princess, the ship condition, food, service, entertainment are on the upswing. Holland America is the reverse, this cruise line is trending in the wrong direction.

 

Let's not forget that Carnival Corporation owns Princess and HAL, as well as Carnival, Costa, Seabourne, Cunard and P&O. I'm sure Carnival has an overall marketing plan that is intended to maximize their appeal to certain classes of consumers. For instance, it's clear that Carnival is geared towards young singles and couples, families with kids and those looking for discounts. Princess is a step up from Carnival and appeals more to wealthier families and older singles and couples. Whereas HAL is geared towards even older singles and couples. Each cruise line has its niche. It wouldn't make sense from a business standpoint for Carnival Corp. to make HAL into a carbon copy of Princess and they aren't trying to do that.

[Friend100]

After seeing this thread yesterday I booked the Eurodam Christmas sailing ... by far the lowest price I have ever paid. Thanks HAL CC!

[Wakepatrol]

After seeing this thread yesterday I booked the Eurodam Christmas sailing ... by far the lowest price I have ever paid. Thanks HAL CC!

 

 

You're welcome- See... even a crazy person like me can post an "Eloquent" post:cool:

Edited December 8, 2014 by Wakepatrol

[sail7seas]

 

<snip>

Whereas HAL is geared towards even older singles and couples. Each cruise line has its niche. It wouldn't make sense from a business standpoint for Carnival Corp. to make HAL into a carbon copy of Princess and they aren't trying to do that.

 

This makes sense, however, so often we see something new or changed on Princess and sure enough it appears on HAL not long after.

 

[nana51]

Yes I agree. Black Friday weekend sales were down 11% this year. I'm predicting a bad retail season, but hope not.

 

However cyber Monday sales were up 14%. Things are better, but most people are still "gun shy" about spending. We lived through a pretty big recession. The big depression my parents lived through changed their spending habits for life, we are bound to be a bit more frugal.

[ICUQT]

I was looking at the December Caribbean cruises on Holland America.

 

The prices are so drastically low. I saw a couple of 7 day cruises leaving Dec14-15 for $199 for an inside cabin.

 

I saw Xmas and New Years cruises B2B for as low as $849

 

7 day Xmas cruises can be had for $399

 

Xmas and New Years used to be a premium cruise fare. I guess that's done as well. I went to a gorgeous mall last night and it was a ghost town 2 weeks before Xmas.

 

 

Seems eerily weird

 

posting error

Edited December 8, 2014 by ICUQT
delete post

[Wakepatrol]

However cyber Monday sales were up 14%. Things are better, but most people are still "gun shy" about spending. We lived through a pretty big recession. The big depression my parents lived through changed their spending habits for life, we are bound to be a bit more frugal.

 

Very good points Nana51

[ICUQT]

I was reading a financial article today concerning CCL and thought of this thread. It is a quote that I lifted from the article (not my own words) for reasons of low prices/discount fares.

 

"Our in-depth pricing analysis shows CCL is having to discount in the lates market more than its peers to fill its ships, putting pressure on overall pricing. We think this has been caused by under-investment in its fleet at the same time as peers upped the ante in terms of product quality and innovation. CCL may never catch-up."

 

I associated this to HAL (sub of CCL) building only the Koningsdam to replace one of two ships sold and the possible selling of two more of its aging fleet in the near future. Under investment in the HAL brand? Is bigger and better going to be in HAL's future?

 

bob

[ken4556]

We just returned Saturday from a RCCL cruise on the Oasis. The two previous cruise were on the HAL, the Oosterdam in Alaska and the Ryndam out of Tampa. We have two cruises booked, one in April 2015 on RCCL and another we just booked Celebrity for Christmas 2015.

 

For both of our cruises in 2015, we could have sailed HAL for a cheaper price. However, we are tired of the cost cutting, the small meal portions, and lack of service on-board. We had a meal on board the Oasis at Chops that was much better than any meal we have ever had in the Pinnacle Grill. We also found the meal selection, portions, and quality was much better than on HAL. When you also consider how much better the entertainment and the ship features are, it is just a better vacation. That to us is better value then going on HAL just because it is "lower cost." I am also tired of the same 7 day itineraries that cut port times short just to save fuel. Why would I book the Westerdam to leave St. Martin at 3:00 pm? I have been on the New Amsterdam when it left St, Martin at 5 pm to reach Half Moon Cay, it can be done. BY HAL would rather save fuel then offer extended port times.

 

The Celebrity Cruise we book was more expansive than the HAL cruise. We decided that we wanted quality over a lower fare. Also, our Diamond status actually gives us real perks on both RCCL and Celebrity. Three stars on HAL gives very few perks.

 

I have been on seven HAL cruises since Dec 2008, so I have seen first hand the decline of this once great cruise line. HAL just offering low prices just is not a reason to go on a HAL cruise. My vacation time is important to me and I want to enjoy it fully and not just a so-so cruise at a low price

Edited December 9, 2014 by ken4556

[iancal]

I think the quote from the financial article regarding HAL and CCL is right on the money. The posts on the HAL board over the past eighteen to twenty four months tell the same story...if you are inclined to listen.

[Viesczy]

I agree. I can't book last minute because we need to make arrangements for the dogs, for flying to whichever port, etc.

 

But for those who can, there are some great deals last minute. Wish they'd level the playing field.

 

^quoting Sheila for TRUTH for both statements.

 

The last minute...

The only way we snag a last minute deal is if we KNOW we're doing it well in advance, don't mind what cabin we get and we just wait out the time.

 

With 3 dogs, 2 cats, 2 horses, and 4 snakes there is no such thing as spontaneous. 'Least the 2 daughters are out the house now!

 

The playing field...

You'd think that if they know that they are going to just cram with end time deals they'd forward plan and give those of us who can't be spontaneous a break. I mean they have forecasting tools that are pretty accurate, but I guess they'd sooner shaft some at the start to eat some in the end... all lines seem to be that way.

[iancal]

For us a last minute deal is anything booked inside the final payment window...which is when we most often book. Sometimes just in the window by a day or so. Once in a while within a week or ten days of departure date.

 

Our experience ,depending on the cruise line, sometimes the prices drop substantially after final payment date for a few days but subsequently increase. That seems to be a sweet spot where we can snag a good cabin if it is not a gty.

 

Looking for exactly this when we are on vacation in Feb/March. Holding back on our return air arrangement in anticipation of getting a great offer and perhaps some attractive cruise air

[Wakepatrol]

I did some more digging around the internet today

 

I found a 7 day Xmas cruise on the Zuiderdam for $399

 

I found a 14 day Xmas New Years 1 lock of the Panama Canal for $799

 

These are for inside cabins

 

Meanwhile an inside cabin on the Celebrity Equinox for Xmas and New Years

is $4149 for 11 days.

 

These Hal prices are extremely low. We have a cruise booked and part of my squirrelly mind wants to cancel lose my insurance money and rebook. I'd still come out ahead. Then another part of me can't be bothered and does not want to go through the hassle.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Wakepatrol

[cruz chic]

Those are crazy prices. It doesn't help if you have to fly to the port. If you live near it would be great.

[neptuno]

I did some more digging around the internet today

 

I found a 7 day Xmas cruise on the Zuiderdam for $399

 

I found a 14 day Xmas New Years 1 lock of the Panama Canal for $799

 

These are for inside cabins

 

Meanwhile an inside cabin on the Celebrity Equinox for Xmas and New Years

is $4149 for 11 days.

 

These Hal prices are extremely low. We have a cruise booked and part of my squirrelly mind wants to cancel lose my insurance money and rebook. I'd still come out ahead. Then another part of me can't be bothered and does not want to go through the hassle.

 

Hello HAL fans, prices are very attractive. Considering Amsterdam 12/22, nine islands in fourteen days last minute bargain. But what is up with the wine packages? We have been spoiled by MSC who sell decent wines for $20, and some OK wines as low as $12. I think there is a reason HAL has the five most discounted last minute cruises currently available, they just don't understand the wine picture. Should we just pay the corkage fee?

[igraf]

In all fairness, the Koningsdam will replace two S-class ships if one goes by passenger head count. This by itself will do a lot to modernize the HAL fleet as half of their fleet will then be Vista-class or newer by ship count, and the clear majority of their fleet will be Vista-class or newer by passenger count.

 

igraf

 

 

 

 

....I associated this to HAL (sub of CCL) building only the Koningsdam to replace one of two ships sold and the possible selling of two more of its aging fleet in the near future. Under investment in the HAL brand? Is bigger and better going to be in HAL's future?

 

bob

Edited December 10, 2014 by igraf

[serendipity1499]

I was looking at the December Caribbean cruises on Holland America.

 

The prices are so drastically low. I saw a couple of 7 day cruises leaving Dec14-15 for $199 for an inside cabin.

 

I saw Xmas and New Years cruises B2B for as low as $849

 

7 day Xmas cruises can be had for $399

 

Xmas and New Years used to be a premium cruise fare. I guess that's done as well. I went to a gorgeous mall last night and it was a ghost town 2 weeks before Xmas.

 

 

Seems eerily weird

 

Airfares have risen faster than cruise fares have dropped. $199 cruise fare means nothing if the flights are $700.

 

It very well could be a combination of both.. Even though oil prices are down, air fares are still up & it looks like the airlines will not be lowering them any time soon..

 

We have 3 grandkids & 4 great grandkids plus their parents to shop for Christmas plus 5 have Birthdays in Oct through Dec.24..Can't forget those Birthdays even though it's close to Christmas..One of our Granddaughters is having her second child in April ..Thank goodness it will not be close to the end of the year..

 

For the first time, I did all my Christmas shopping on-line as wanted to avoid the "crowds"..:eek: LOL.. Also picked stores out which gave me free shipping if I spent XX No. of $$$.. Now realize we spent more on Christmas presents this year then we have other years.. We seem to have a bit more of disposable income, which I suspect is because we have not cruised this year..;)

 

Yesterday, had to take one thing back to J.C. Penny.. The parking lot was almost empty.. Walked into the store & did not see any shoppers.. :confused: I was in & out in five minutes.. Could not believe it...:)

Edited December 10, 2014 by serendipity1499

[cruz chic]

It very well could be a combination of both.. Even though oil prices are down, air fares are still up & it looks like the airlines will not be lowering them any time soon..

 

We have 3 grandkids & 4 great grandkids plus their parents to shop for Christmas plus 5 have Birthdays in Oct through Dec.24..Can't forget those Birthdays even though it's close to Christmas..One of our Granddaughters is having her second child in April ..Thank goodness it will not be close to the end of the year..

 

For the first time, I did all my Christmas shopping on-line as wanted to avoid the "crowds"..:eek: LOL.. Also picked stores out which gave me free shipping if I spent XX No. of $$$.. Now realize we spent more on Christmas presents this year then we have other years.. We seem to have a bit more of disposable income, which I suspect is because we have not cruised this year..;)

 

Yesterday, had to take one thing back to J.C. Penny.. The parking lot was almost empty.. Walked into the store & did not see any shoppers.. :confused: I was in & out in five minutes.. Could not believe it...:)

Please don't forget that December 24th birthday. My birthday is close to Christmas and people just "forget" about it. It's hurtful.