Bad Economy Or Too Many Ships?

[cruisemom42]

I am sure that the economy is also an issue but frankly, considering that the cost of fuel is dropping dramatically right now, why is the air so high?

 

Consolidation and reduction in the number of flights/seats available for given routes.

 

http://time.com/3529791/airfares-rising-fuel-gas/

[sail7seas]

Consolidation and reduction in the number of flights/seats available for given routes.

 

http://time.com/3529791/airfares-rising-fuel-gas/

 

And booming profits for the airlines.

All those baggage fees, change fees, extra leg room fees etc add up to huge profits. Why lower prices when fuel costs lower? It's a chance for even more profit.

 

[iancal]

We flew home from the Med in November on a one way air ticket. We booked the cruise just inside the final payment window.

 

The reason for selecting the cruise that we did was the attractive cruise offer and the even better cruise air price/itinerary that was available. The cruise air was three hundred dollars less per person than other cruise air or budget carrier offerings and the itinerary was the most desirable of the lot.

Edited December 6, 2014 by iancal

[Harley57]

I think each of you has made some very valid points - unemployment, underemployment, lack of pay raises, high costs of airfare coupled with high costs for college tuition and childcare.

 

I know our lack of pay raises plus paying private college tuition for our son, along with some very expensive surgery for my son that our insurance company declined to cover as it was "out of network" (very long story) has us watching our $$ very closely.

 

We are fortunate to be still able to take a cruise to Norway in 2015 for our 35th wedding anniversary, but I realize many are not so fortunate.

[iancal]

US Airline consolidation is certainly not helping.

 

We flew (economy) United to London in Sept. We flew home on British Air (economy) in November. We saw a significant decline in the United experience. Overall, the BA flight was streets ahead in terms of on board service, food, and complementary beverage offerings. The difference was very noticeable.

[Krazy Kruizers]

Hal needs to employ a new pricing strategy. More reasonable prices further out. Then they likely wouldn't need to give the farm away at the end.

 

 

 

Like!!!

[Krazy Kruizers]

It is a combination of bad economy and too many ships. Many people have to worry about the cost of just everyday items to survive and can't take cruises.

Our last cruise on the Noordam in November wasn't even sold old.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Personally I think it is neither Too Many Ships or Bad Economy....the only cruise line dropping their shorts to fill up the ships for the Holidays is HAL with a close second Carnival. You can go to any online travel agency web site and do a search for Caribbean cruises from Dec 19 through Dec 22 and find that Holland America is giving away their cabins. Royal Caribbean and Celebrity is at a high premium on what is not sold out. Lines such as Disney have been sold out for Inside and Ocean View. Zuiderdam and Noordam are by far the lowest price cruise out there while others like Celebrity what remaining is selling for $1749 pp for an Interior. The only other ships with fairly low prices are NCL Sun (an old ship in NCL standards) and the NCL Epic that has always had problems selling.

Sadly most of the problem is HAL's reputation.

It was mentioned that HAL did not offer sales earlier enough and actually that is not the case at all this year. They were offering prices that were extremely low this past Spring (March and April) for December and holiday sailings. There was $599 balcony for Christmas week being offered many months ago.

Holland America just cannot keep up with the modern innovations, entertainment and activities that other lines offer such as RCCL, Celebrity and the newer NCL ships.

 

Interestingly enough HAL keeps trying to follow in Princess's footsteps yet while they have some good deals with Princess Holiday sailings for the most part they are several hundred more in cost and holding their own at about what the prices were in previous years.

[sammiedawg]

Personally I think it is neither Too Many Ships or Bad Economy....the only cruise line dropping their shorts to fill up the ships for the Holidays is HAL with a close second Carnival. You can go to any online travel agency web site and do a search for Caribbean cruises from Dec 19 through Dec 22 and find that Holland America is giving away their cabins. Royal Caribbean and Celebrity is at a high premium on what is not sold out. Lines such as Disney have been sold out for Inside and Ocean View. Zuiderdam and Noordam are by far the lowest price cruise out there while others like Celebrity what remaining is selling for $1749 pp for an Interior. The only other ships with fairly low prices are NCL Sun (an old ship in NCL standards) and the NCL Epic that has always had problems selling.

Sadly most of the problem is HAL's reputation.

It was mentioned that HAL did not offer sales earlier enough and actually that is not the case at all this year. They were offering prices that were extremely low this past Spring (March and April) for December and holiday sailings. There was $599 balcony for Christmas week being offered many months ago.

Holland America just cannot keep up with the modern innovations, entertainment and activities that other lines offer such as RCCL, Celebrity and the newer NCL ships.

 

Interestingly enough HAL keeps trying to follow in Princess's footsteps yet while they have some good deals with Princess Holiday sailings for the most part they are several hundred more in cost and holding their own at about what the prices were in previous years.

 

holland America is not competing well with other mass market lines and they've lost a good percentage of business to the premium sectors. I think the line will be downsized as they offload the older ships,

[iancal]

HAL simply has not kept up. You cannot keep trading on the same old same old without introducing some sort of innovation and change to meet market demands. I cannot imagine anyone believing that HAL is a premium cruise line. Most TA's that I have spoken to certainly do not. This is a hard truth for HAL cheerleaders but HAL has brought this on themselves, IMHO, by a management team stuck in neutral gear for years while competitors are moving forward. You can only take your customers for granted for so long. I suspect that day has passed for some.

 

If I were to take children on a Christmas cruise HAL would not be on the list...if only because of their smoking policy. HAL ships may be traditional and all those other descriptors but they are certainly less appealing to the larger market than those of other cruise lines.

 

This must surely have an impact on their Christmas bookings.

Edited December 6, 2014 by iancal

[sail7seas]

Personally I think it is neither Too Many Ships or Bad Economy....the only cruise line dropping their shorts to fill up the ships for the Holidays is HAL with a close second Carnival. You can go to any online travel agency web site and do a search for Caribbean cruises from Dec 19 through Dec 22 and find that Holland America is giving away their cabins. Royal Caribbean and Celebrity is at a high premium on what is not sold out. Lines such as Disney have been sold out for Inside and Ocean View. Zuiderdam and Noordam are by far the lowest price cruise out there while others like Celebrity what remaining is selling for $1749 pp for an Interior. The only other ships with fairly low prices are NCL Sun (an old ship in NCL standards) and the NCL Epic that has always had problems selling.

Sadly most of the problem is HAL's reputation.

It was mentioned that HAL did not offer sales earlier enough and actually that is not the case at all this year. They were offering prices that were extremely low this past Spring (March and April) for December and holiday sailings. There was $599 balcony for Christmas week being offered many months ago.

Holland America just cannot keep up with the modern innovations, entertainment and activities that other lines offer such as RCCL, Celebrity and the newer NCL ships.

 

Interestingly enough HAL keeps trying to follow in Princess's footsteps yet while they have some good deals with Princess Holiday sailings for the most part they are several hundred more in cost and holding their own at about what the prices were in previous years.

 

Hi Lisa,

 

Why does HAL follow Princess, if that actually is the case? (I tend to agree with you that if watch what Princess does, it often shows up soon thereafter on HAL.)

 

Do you think the new President will make any profound difference?

What is the industry opinion about the change?

 

Edited December 6, 2014 by sail7seas

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Hi Lisa,

 

Why does HAL follow Princess, if that actually is the case? (I tend to agree with you that if watch what Princess does, it often shows up soon thereafter on HAL.)

 

Do you think the new President will make any profound difference?

What is the industry opinion about the change?

 

I think to see what the future of HAL is, Is to look at Princess. Basically HAL will be a mini version of Princess. In the last several weeks there have been numerous high positions in HAL Seattle that have decided to take early retirement. There have been announcements of their replacements and several have come from Princess. I have been stating for several years now that what ever Princess does HAL soon does the same.

 

But to answer your question my gut feeling is NO the new President will not make a Profound difference, the changes that are happening and will be coming were already in the pipeline.

 

Now my next statement is going to be way out there and did not come from any source but MY prediction ONLY, Is that there will be a merger of sorts between Princess and HAL a lot like RCCL and Celebrity while they will keep their brand names they will be the same cruise line. With Princess being the main cruise line over HAL. I could be wrong but I see too much happening that leads me to believe that this could easily happen in the next 2 years.

 

As for Mr Ashford, he is a Human Resources person which will be a when be good if my prediction happens ;)

[sail7seas]

Very interesting suggestion and I wouldn't quibble the notion with you. I don't see it as 'way out of left field impossible'. You think they will shrink HAL fleet and a formal or informal merger of Princess will take place? Could be.

 

Where does that leave Seabourn which is now an 'extension' of HAL?

[LAFFNVEGAS]

Very interesting suggestion and I wouldn't quibble the notion with you. I don't see it as 'way out of left field impossible'. You think they will shrink HAL fleet and a formal or informal merger of Princess will take place? Could be.

 

Where does that leave Seabourn which is now an 'extension' of HAL?

 

Sail, think in the same line as Azamara is with Celebrity ;)

Yes I do think they will shrink HAL's Fleet as well as get rid of a few Princess ships.

[sammiedawg]

I'm not in the travel industry but I've been saying Money is being poured into Princess, the ship condition, food, service, entertainment are on the upswing. Holland America is the reverse, this cruise line is trending in the wrong direction.

[igraf]

Not sure why you think the economy is bad. Freeways in San Diego are clogged with people driving to high paying jobs at Qualcomm. An average house is about $500k and sells in just a few days.

 

Let me add this link from CNN:

 

http://money.cnn.com/2014/12/05/news/economy/jobs-hiring/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

 

I personally believe that the newer megaships have simply drawn customers away from the other ships.

 

igraf

 

 

 

 

It's also an effect of a bad economy. People without jobs, adequate paying jobs, cannot afford even $200 (actually $400 for 2 or with single supplement) plus transportation to/from the port plus on board expenses (a minimum of about $80 each for HSC) - and they certainly cannot afford to take time off work. So many people unemployed or under-employed.

 

Vacations are one of the first casualties - I suspect many on here are comfortable enough financially that they can still take vacations but I wonder if some are taking fewer/shorter cruises, cheaper cabins or cutting back in other ways?

 

This is just an observational comment, not meant to turn this thread into anything political - let's refrain from that.

 

*ODECCIT was posting while I was typing - makes me feel a little better that I'm not the only one aware of the continuing effects of the bad economy.

Edited December 7, 2014 by igraf

[mollyanne]

That's $899 for a 7 day Caribbean Cruise

 

Sounds about right

 

And it sounds good to me! But we are not able to go away this winter. :(

[drowelf]

I'm not in the travel industry but I've been saying Money is being poured into Princess, the ship condition, food, service, entertainment are on the upswing. Holland America is the reverse, this cruise line is trending in the wrong direction.

 

Can you provide any links to details to support your opinion? The wife and I are long time HAL Cruisers and would like to see some facts related to this. HAL just announced a new class of ships to be built with the first named and under construction.

 

Cheers,

[sammiedawg]

Can you provide any links to details to support your opinion? The wife and I are long time HAL Cruisers and would like to see some facts related to this. HAL just announced a new class of ships to be built with the first named and under construction.

 

Cheers,

 

I don't have any hard facts or link but I stand by my opinion that money is being poured into Princess . We've sailed both lines repeatedly over the last fifteen years, we are elite on Princess and 3star on HAL.

Just look at the age of the respective fleets. According to my travel agent friend Holland America is sailing the oldest fleet in the industry. Princess has offloaded most of their older Sun class ships to non US markets . They are selling the two little girls, Ocean Princess is sold and Pacific Princess is for sale. They've rolled out a plethora of expensive new ships and another is on order.

 

We used to think HAL was a step up in food and service quality but based on recent experiences the reverse is true. Evaluations are subjective but we've been disappointed more than once.

Princess has a much newer fleet , their ships are gorgeous and seem to be better maintained. Mechanical problems can happen on any cruise line but they are much more common on HAL and we've experienced plumbing and AC problems on more than one of their ships.

 

I have been told by two travel agents they recommend Princess based on customer feedback. One agent friend told me she would never recommend Holland America as she gets too many complaints about the aging ships and declining food and service. She said they are "bleeding customers" to other lines.

Both lines are mass market but food and service cutbacks are very noticeable on HAL. At the same time Princess has enhanced their product.

Based on recent HAL experiences I didn't even buy a future cruise credit while on board Prinsendam in July. But I hope to try out the new ship and I'd consider HAL if the price and itinerary click.

 

LAFFNVEGAS comments in post number 33 hit the nail on the head from the industry perspective. I hope HAL a doesn't become a St Elsewhere cruise line. Customers sense when a product is going downhill and they vote with their feet.

Edited December 8, 2014 by sammiedawg

[SoCal Cruiser78]

I think there are too many ships. Especially the extremely large and newer ones on other lines, may impact HAL's situation

 

There is also another factor, at least here in the US. Flying in general has become so unpleasant that I know of several cruisers beside myself that will no longer fly to a port.

 

I am fortunate enough to live within driving distance of Los Angeles and San Diego ports, and can take Amtrak to SF, Seattle or Vancouver. This does limit my itinerary choices, but I am okay with that.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Ryndam2002

[icat2000]

Just look at the age of the respective fleets. According to my travel agent friend Holland America is sailing the oldest fleet in the industry. Princess has offloaded most of their older Sun class ships to non US markets . .

And those older Sun class Princess ships down in Australia, Princess gets good yeilds for the cabins. Also they manage to sell long cruises out of of Australia and a world every year that is well booked out of Australia.

 

Holland America should try a world cruise that starts and ends in Australia.

Edited December 8, 2014 by icat2000

[jimmy2x]

I don't have any hard facts or link but I stand by my opinion that money is being poured into Princess . We've sailed both lines repeatedly over the last fifteen years, we are elite on Princess and 3star on HAL.

Just look at the age of the respective fleets. According to my travel agent friend Holland America is sailing the oldest fleet in the industry. Princess has offloaded most of their older Sun class ships to non US markets . They are selling the two little girls, Ocean Princess is sold and Pacific Princess is for sale. They've rolled out a plethora of expensive new ships and another is on order.

 

We used to think HAL was a step up in food and service quality but based on recent experiences the reverse is true. Evaluations are subjective but we've been disappointed more than once.

Princess has a much newer fleet , their ships are gorgeous and seem to be better maintained. Mechanical problems can happen on any cruise line but they are much more common on HAL and we've experienced plumbing and AC problems on more than one of their ships.

 

I have been told by two travel agents they recommend Princess based on customer feedback. One agent friend told me she would never recommend Holland America as she gets too many complaints about the aging ships and declining food and service. She said they are "bleeding customers" to other lines.

Both lines are mass market but food and service cutbacks are very noticeable on HAL. At the same time Princess has enhanced their product.

Based on recent HAL experiences I didn't even buy a future cruise credit while on board Prinsendam in July. But I hope to try out the new ship and I'd consider HAL if the price and itinerary click.

 

LAFFNVEGAS comments in post number 33 hit the nail on the head from the industry perspective. I hope HAL a doesn't become a St Elsewhere cruise line. Customers sense when a product is going downhill and they vote with their feet.

 

These are the new ships with the tiny baclonies that you speak of. Frankly, no matter what other "amenities" are provided, the lack of a decent size balcony and no or a very tiny aft pool are deal breakers for us. Like all too many of the modern cruise ships, the design is to push people inwards towards the bars, etc.

 

We cruise to be on the sea. If we wanted a fancy hotel there is always Vegas.

[Despegue]

We are finally sailing HAL coming June, after taking a cruise at least twice a year over the last 10 years, mostly on Celebrity.

 

Prices for HAL sailings in Europe next summer are up to 50% lower than anything comparable with Celebrity, Princess or even NCL.

 

Over the last years, all mayor lines have completely updated their older vessels and introduced state-of-the-art new ships with contemporary decors.

Most of HAL's fleet looks inside like a nursing home without any major modernization decor wise.

 

The "new" menus which are appearing the last couple of weeks seem to have less choices for appetizers, and many nights, the selection consists of a fruit plate(:rolleyes:), shrimp cocktail (:rolleyes:)and ONE attractive appetizer plus several soups and salads. Now I realize that a certain demographic likes fruit and schrimp platters as starters everyday, but a lot of potential HAL passengers do NOT share this preference and prefers at least three choices of daily changing ( hot) appetizers that give our tastebuds new discoveries. ( a fruit platter is a dessert by the way:rolleyes:)

 

HAL needs to adapt to modern tastes without forgetting their heritage and main advantages. ( fantastic Asian flair service, art of all centuries, Liner history)

 

Zuiderdam will go into Drydock coming April. She deserves a complete new contemporary carpeting, upholstery and furniture at a minimum in addition to just adding the new balcony cabins on deck 10.

[cruz chic]

We are finally sailing HAL coming June, after taking a cruise at least twice a year over the last 10 years, mostly on Celebrity.

 

Prices for HAL sailings in Europe next summer are up to 50% lower than anything comparable with Celebrity, Princess or even NCL.

 

Over the last years, all mayor lines have completely updated their older vessels and introduced state-of-the-art new ships with contemporary decors.

Most of HAL's fleet looks inside like a nursing home without any major modernization decor wise.

 

The "new" menus which are appearing the last couple of weeks seem to have less choices for appetizers, and many nights, the selection consists of a fruit plate(:rolleyes:), shrimp cocktail (:rolleyes:)and ONE attractive appetizer plus several soups and salads. Now I realize that a certain demographic likes fruit and schrimp platters as starters everyday, but a lot of potential HAL passengers do NOT share this preference and prefers at least three choices of daily changing ( hot) appetizers that give our tastebuds new discoveries. ( a fruit platter is a dessert by the way:rolleyes:)

 

HAL needs to adapt to modern tastes without forgetting their heritage and main advantages. ( fantastic Asian flair service, art of all centuries, Liner history)

 

Zuiderdam will go into Drydock coming April. She deserves a complete new contemporary carpeting, upholstery and furniture at a minimum in addition to just adding the new balcony cabins on deck 10.

 

I'm surprised that you are commenting on the food. I have sailed hal, princess, celebrity and carnival. Without a doubt, the most limited menus were on celebrity. In addition, the food was either really good or really bad. I have zero desire to try celebrity again.

[dhill]

Maybe the market is getting flooded with to many and to big of ships?There only so many people who want to cruise at any given time.:eek: