second Pinnacle-class announced november 2018!

[taxmantoo]

[quote name='rkacruiser']I agree with your thinking. Using a Vista or Signature Class for such a cruise mught make me consider another world cruise. I enjoy the increased amenities available on those classes of ships, particularly the Hydrothermal Pool and Thermal Suite.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree! Would definitely love for that option to become available some day!

[Tante Amalie]

The End of an Era

I guess HAL is getting the buzz and excitement they were hoping for with the announcements about their new ships. I read this news with sadness and the feeling that my future cruises are less likely to be on Holland America.

The new ships have nothing new to offer me. They are simply bigger and with more cabins and higher passenger density. The staffing ratio is dropping- it will be approaching 1:3 on these new builds. More passengers will be crowded into less space (99,500 tons for 2,650 passengers). You don't have to be Einstein to understand what this means for the cruise experience. This translates into slower service, longer lines, slow tendering, and the inevitable drop in overall quality. Do you like fighting for chairs by the pool? Do you like waiting for a dinner table? Do you like lines at the Lido?

Yes, the ships will be shiny and new for a while. The newness will wear off and we are stuck with bigger ships that make everything more impersonal and crowded. The crew on HAL are wonderful, but the stress of being pushed to serve more diners and service more cabins has begun to show. It's only going to get worse with these new ships.

There are likely to be changes to the itineraries as well. It's harder to fill a big ship for long or exotic itineraries. HAL will be pushed in the direction of the milk run short cruises in order to keep the big ships operating at capacity.

I don't see any reason to celebrate these announcements. Pardon me if I don't put up the bunting just yet.

[sail7seas]

[quote name='InTheWASide']Not necessarily. Costa has offered world cruises on Deliziosa and/or sliminess I believe which are basically the same size. Cunard has done world cruises on all 3 ships currently in their fleet sometimes all in the same year.

Yes different clientele but if Costa can fill a costa platform based ship for one and Cunard can do the same with 2 plus the massive QM2 than surely HAL could fill one. Could make the world cruise more intriguing to some that haven't considered it before as well since the Vista/Signature ships have more onboard amenities.


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Forums[/QUOTE]

[B] I don't necessarily disagree with you.
You should work for HAL in their PR Department. :) You always have an upbeat and positive outlook for all things HAL. It's consistently present and delightful to recognize in all of your posts.

[/B]




[quote name='rkacruiser']I agree with your thinking. Using a Vista or Signature Class for such a cruise mught make me consider another world cruise. I enjoy the increased amenities available on those classes of ships, particularly the Hydrothermal Pool and Thermal Suite.[/QUOTE]



[B] I have no interest (at this time) in a World Cruise but the idea of a Vista does have it's upside........ particularly if it is Noordam. :) ;) Noordam is going down-under though, I believe.

[/B]

[LindaM]

[quote name='Tante Amalie']The End of an Era

I guess HAL is getting the buzz and excitement they were hoping for with the announcements about their new ships. I read this news with sadness and the feeling that my future cruises are less likely to be on Holland America.

The new ships have nothing new to offer me. They are simply bigger and with more cabins and higher passenger density. The staffing ratio is dropping- it will be approaching 1:3 on these new builds. More passengers will be crowded into less space (99,500 tons for 2,650 passengers). You don't have to be Einstein to understand what this means for the cruise experience. This translates into slower service, longer lines, slow tendering, and the inevitable drop in overall quality. Do you like fighting for chairs by the pool? Do you like waiting for a dinner table? Do you like lines at the Lido?

Yes, the ships will be shiny and new for a while. The newness will wear off and we are stuck with bigger ships that make everything more impersonal and crowded. The crew on HAL are wonderful, but the stress of being pushed to serve more diners and service more cabins has begun to show. It's only going to get worse with these new ships.

There are likely to be changes to the itineraries as well. It's harder to fill a big ship for long or exotic itineraries. HAL will be pushed in the direction of the milk run short cruises in order to keep the big ships operating at capacity.

I don't see any reason to celebrate these announcements. Pardon me if I don't put up the bunting just yet.[/QUOTE]

I agree with your assessment 100%. If I wanted to sail on a 2000 psgr+ ship, I'd sail Celebrity or Princess. Now, HAL caters to those who are serious travelers and want unusual itineraries. In the future, nothing will distinguish them, except for being the line for smokers. It's sad. By the time I get to be 4 star, I won't be able to use it, because I won't sail HAL on big ships.

[cruz chic]

I'm a person who loves the newer ships and what they have to offer. Hal still has the smaller, older ships for those who care to sail them. Hal has be be economical to survive. It's not like all the smaller ships will be gone tomorrow.

[LindaM]

[quote name='cruz chic']I'm a person who loves the newer ships and what they have to offer. Hal still has the smaller, older ships for those who care to sail them. Hal has be be economical to survive. It's not like all the smaller ships will be gone tomorrow.[/QUOTE]

I don't know all of HAL's ships.....but if Maasdam , Ryndam and Veendam are gone....what small ships are left? Amsterdam and Volendam? Any others??

[catl331]

[quote name='LindaM']I don't know all of HAL's ships.....but if Maasdam , Ryndam and Veendam are gone....what small ships are left? Amsterdam and Volendam? Any others??[/quote]Rotterdam and Zaandam are Amsterdam sized.

[cruz chic]

Prinsendam too. Maybe they need to charge a large premium like they do on the Prinsendam to keep these ships viable. I don't enjoy them so I won't pay it. I'm interested in bermuda but for the itinerary only.

[sail7seas]

[quote]LindaM
I agree with your assessment 100%. If I wanted to sail on a 2000 psgr+ ship, I'd sail Celebrity or Princess. Now, HAL caters to those who are serious travelers and want unusual itineraries. In the future, nothing will distinguish them, except for being the line for smokers. It's sad. By the time I get to be 4 star, I won't be able to use it, because I won't sail HAL on big ships. [/quote]



[B]Many of us have done our 'serious travel' and though very able to still travel, not all of us want to cross the oceans to Australia and Asia etc Some of us are happy with the 'less than serious' travel. My idea of fun cruising these days is Canada/New England, Panama Canal, Caribbean, Bermuda and perhaps back to Alaska. I'd have to really love the itinerary or have other incentives to sail Europe again. I am grateful to have seen the 'highpoints' of what was on my personal bucket list over the last 40+ years of my travel. We were so fortunate to begin those trips as soon as we could rub two nickels together. :) :D

I like Eurodam, I love Noordam, Oosterdam and Westerdam. Maasdam owns a piece of my heart. I hope to 'try' Koningsdam but am concerned about the smoking issue. My verandah is even more important to me now and I can't imagine being unable to use it for a whole cruise. I may as well pack and go home.


[/B] Edited December 21, 2014 by sail7seas

[cruz chic]

[quote name='sail7seas'][B]Many of us have done our 'serious travel' and though very able to still travel, not all of us want to cross the oceans to Australia and Asia etc Some of us are happy with the 'less than serious' travel. My idea of fun cruising these days is Canada/New England, Panama Canal, Caribbean, Bermuda and perhaps back to Alaska. I'd have to really love the itinerary or have other incentives to sail Europe again. I am grateful to have seen the 'highpoints' of what was on my personal bucket list over the last 40+ years of my travel. We were so fortunate to begin those trips as soon as we could rub two nickels together. :) :D

I like Eurodam, I love Noordam, Oosterdam and Westerdam. Maasdam owns a piece of my heart. I hope to 'try' Koningsdam but am concerned about the smoking issue. My verandah is even more important to me now and I can't imagine being unable to use it for a whole cruise. I may as well pack and go home.


[/B][/QUOTE]

I like all the cruises you have listed here. While I'm working I have no desire to fly half way across the world to board a cruise. I do not have a month to recover upon returning home. Flying home from Fort Lauderdale last time just about did me in. Having to go to work within 11 hours of landing didn't help.

[ski ww]

Lots of interesting things to think about. We too love the smaller seize ships, hate the line ups. We noticed on our last cruise this fall on the Prinsendam that they had fewer crew, i.e. cabin stewards, waiters. The Maasdam just came out of a major refit in 2011. We'll keep cruising on HAL & enjoy what ships they have. My guess is they'll always be popular with the people who year after year come back to cruise on HAL ships.
Allan & Marlane

[frankc98376]

[quote name='cruz chic']I like all the cruises you have listed here. While I'm working I have no desire to fly half way across the world to board a cruise. I do not have a month to recover upon returning home. Flying home from Fort Lauderdale last time just about did me in. Having to go to work within 11 hours of landing didn't help.[/quote]

We are with you and Sail- we hate the long international flights. Give us Alaska, Mexico, west coast or round trip Hawaii any day and keep us on our coast. I agree about Florida- also a LONG flight for us out of Seattle.
We have been looking at a 10 night Pacific Coast cruise in 2016 on Crystal round trip out of San Diego

[kazu]

[quote name='frankc98376']We are with you and Sail- we hate the long international flights. Give us Alaska, Mexico, west coast or round trip Hawaii any day and keep us on our coast. I agree about Florida- also a LONG flight for us out of Seattle.
We have been looking at a 10 night Pacific Coast cruise in 2016 on Crystal round trip out of San Diego[/QUOTE]

International flights are no fun. No question. But, we try to do one way and come back on TA if possible.

There is still so much to explore and we want to do it while we can. So we are off again in November when Europe is less crowded. Ships don't visit much of Northern Spain so we will be touring by land and exploring and revelling in Galicia and other great spots and then heading to Barcelona to enjoy a couple of days there before we board Oceania to return home across the Ocean with some nice stops in between.:D

[sail7seas]

[quote name='kazu']International flights are no fun. No question. But, we try to do one way and come back on TA if possible.

There is still so much to explore and we want to do it while we can. So we are off again in November when Europe is less crowded. Ships don't visit much of Northern Spain so we will be touring by land and exploring and revelling in Galicia and other great spots and then heading to Barcelona to enjoy a couple of days there before we board Oceania to return home across the Ocean with some nice stops in between.:D[/QUOTE]

[B] I hope you'll compare the Suite experience on Oceania vs HAL.
I'd be interested to hear the pros vs cons comparing the two.

Northern Spain might be cold in November but you will surely plan for that. :) Spain is one of my very favorite countries. We enjoyed many land visits there.... and cruise stops on Rotterdam ( I think that was the ship.) :)

[/B]

[Lizzie68]

[quote name='frankc98376']We are with you and Sail- we hate the long international flights. Give us Alaska, Mexico, west coast or round trip Hawaii any day and keep us on our coast. I agree about Florida- also a LONG flight for us out of Seattle.
We have been looking at a 10 night Pacific Coast cruise in 2016 on Crystal round trip out of San Diego[/quote]

I so agree. We have now gotten to that point. We did so much travelling when we were young, thankfully, and when everywhere in Europe was so easy for us to get to. Now we just are done with long-haul flights. I do the duty ones to family, nowhere near as frequently as I used to, though. There is much for us to explore in Canada and the US now, and the coastals and Alaska are perfect. One more long cruise for us, then we will start doing B2B on this side of the continent.

[sail7seas]

[B]I happen to think the airlines like it just fine that many of us are tired of putting up with the drudgery of transiting airports, putting up all the misery many flights put us through. The airports and air traffic control and the limitations of growth for many airports makes the airlines not necessarily want more flights. They want full flights and are fine limiting how many seats there are a day to any given location. If someone has to get from point A to point B, airlines won't blink an eye to declare, well....... take these three flights and what should be 5 hours of travel turns into 24 if you are lucky.

When some of us say we're done dealing with them, they smile and move along. They are making the highest profits probably ever and don't need masses of us. They just need enough of us to fill their seats and they have that and way more.

Flying used to be fun and DH loved when he was able to have a transatlantic first class seat on TWA, Air France, British Air, KLM........whatever. Oh those points were wonderful to cash in for a true first class experience. Those days will never return but how lucky for those of us who once upon a time, in a whole different world enjoyed it. Now....... so long, farewell, au revoir......I've had it !! :D

I will put up with it for a flight to do something I REALLY want. If I continue to want to sail Koningsdam, I'll shut my mouth, ask my doctor for a Rx :D and deal with it. Boston to FLL, I'll do. Anything else???? Not sure.


[/B] Edited December 21, 2014 by sail7seas

[wander]

A few years ago at an Invitation only Q&A (higher day folks on that cruise) session with the Captain, much displeasure with the ships getting larger and larger was expressed. In response to the Question "WHY getting so big" the response was, as I remember it, that since many of the HAL ships are funded through investors and investment groups, not HAL, he said the investors are most concerned about Return on Investment (ROI), and the larger the ship have a much better the ROI, so that is what they would fund for HAL.

I can only report what he said, do not know anything beyond that. Maybe some others KNOW whether or not the Captain was being open about some of the ships being owned by others and leased (or whatever) to HAL. Edited December 21, 2014 by wander

[cruz chic]

[quote name='wander']A few years ago at an Invitation only Q&A (higher day folks on that cruise) session with the Captain, much displeasure with the ships getting larger and larger was expressed. In response to the Question "WHY getting so big" the response was, as I remember it, that since many of the HAL ships are funded through investors and investment groups, not HAL, he said the investors are most concerned about Return on Investment (ROI), and the larger the ship have a much better the ROI, so that is what they would fund for HAL.

I can only report what he said, do not know anything beyond that.[/QUOTE]

Of course, that's the cold, harsh reality. Any publicly owned company is like that. Everything is about the shareholders.

[sail7seas]

[quote name='wander']A few years ago at an Invitation only Q&A (higher day folks on that cruise) session with the Captain, much displeasure with the ships getting larger and larger was expressed. In response to the Question "WHY getting so big" the response was, as I remember it, that since many of the HAL ships are funded through investors and investment groups, not HAL, he said the investors are most concerned about Return on Investment (ROI), and the larger the ship have a much better the ROI, so that is what they would fund for HAL.

I can only report what he said, do not know anything beyond that. Maybe some others KNOW whether or not the Captain was being open about some of the ships being owned by others and leased (or whatever) to HAL.[/QUOTE]

[B]


I've heard similar spoken at the same Q&A Sessions.
I don't always attend but the few I've gone to were very interesting.
[/B]

[cruisemom42]

Guess I am still young enough that the flying doesn't bother me. It's worth it to get where I want to go. As I posted on another thread recently, it still seems wonderful to me that I can be at home and then 12 hours later can be in Rome or Paris or London.... When I was a kid, I had to spend almost that long in the airless backseat of my parents car just to get to Florida from Georgia!

However, I realize that not everyone has access to a large international hub!

Although I've been traveling from an early age, my wanderlust never stops. The more places I travel, the more I find to add to my list -- some via cruise and some via land trips. In February, for example, I am finally getting to visit Angkor Wat and then doing a SE Asia cruise.

There are some I won't get to until I retire, since I cannot take off the amount of time necessary to really have a good experience there. As it is, I go through heroic efforts to maximize the time I have. Nearly every trip I take involved returning home on a Sunday evening and being back at my desk on Monday so as not to waste a precious day. (Including a 23-hour trip from Cyprus to Athens to Paris to my airport. :o)

For the same reason, I also stretch my travel dollars. I'd rather take three overseas trips a year than one "blowout" trip. That's just me -- nothing wrong with the other way.

P.S. I do love the idea of doing a TA one or both ways and then spending time somewhere in Europe. Unfortunately, I can't rationalize the time it would take now. But someday..... Edited December 21, 2014 by cruisemom42

[sail7seas]

[quote name='cruisemom42']Guess I am still young enough that the flying doesn't bother me. It's worth it to get where I want to go. As I posted on another thread recently, it still seems wonderful to me that I can be at home and then 12 hours later can be in Rome or Paris or London.... When I was a kid, I had to spend almost that long in the airless backseat of my parents car just to get to Florida from Georgia!

However, I realize that not everyone has access to a large international hub!

Although I've been traveling from an early age, my wanderlust never stops. The more places I travel, the more I find to add to my list -- some via cruise and some via land trips. In February, for example, I am finally getting to visit Angkor Wat and then doing a SE Asia cruise.

<snip>

[/QUOTE]

[B] In my case, age or mobility are not an issue. It is simply I'm tired of putting up with the lousy experience.

Each of us evaluates all the pros and cons for ourselves but age is not the first factor for many of us as your opening sentence might suggest. :)

[/B]

[kazu]

[quote name='cruisemom42']Guess I am still young enough that the flying doesn't bother me. It's worth it to get where I want to go. As I posted on another thread recently, it still seems wonderful to me that I can be at home and then 12 hours later can be in Rome or Paris or London.... When I was a kid, I had to spend almost that long in the airless backseat of my parents car just to get to Florida from Georgia!

However, I realize that not everyone has access to a large international hub!

Although I've been traveling from an early age, my wanderlust never stops. The more places I travel, the more I find to add to my list -- some via cruise and some via land trips. In February, for example, I am finally getting to visit Angkor Wat and then doing a SE Asia cruise.

There are some I won't get to until I retire, since I cannot take off the amount of time necessary to really have a good experience there. As it is, I go through heroic efforts to maximize the time I have. Nearly every trip I take involved returning home on a Sunday evening and being back at my desk on Monday so as not to waste a precious day. (Including a 23-hour trip from Cyprus to Athens to Paris to my airport. :o)

For the same reason, I also stretch my travel dollars. I'd rather take three overseas trips a year than one "blowout" trip. That's just me -- nothing wrong with the other way.

P.S. I do love the idea of doing a TA one or both ways and then spending time somewhere in Europe. Unfortunately, I can't rationalize the time it would take now. But someday.....[/QUOTE]

I guess I am with you Cruisemom, we love exploring and seeing history.

We don't live at an airport hub so we need to take a puddle hopper to get there.

We do have the benefit of flying business class once we get the puddle hopper over with as I will work for days to get business class with my FF miles.

We are very much alike, except unlike you, we do one or two trips a year, but longer ones. It's a long way from Europe. We have started flying to our hub, staying over night and seeing friends and then flying the next day to do our flight over the Ocean. It seems to work for us.

So our trips end up being 20 or 30 days but for us, it's the best way to go.

Travelling and exploring is a joy and we are so thankful that we are able to do it.

[cruisemom42]

[quote name='sail7seas'][B] In my case, age or mobility are not an issue. It is simply I'm tired of putting up with the lousy experience.

Each of us evaluates all the pros and cons for ourselves but age is not the first factor for many of us as your opening sentence might suggest. :)

[/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry, I didn't mean to refer to you or anyone in particular on these boards.

I was thinking of my parents, whose long-haul days are possibly over -- after many, many years of travels, thankfully.

[cruz chic]

[quote name='sail7seas'][B] In my case, age or mobility are not an issue. It is simply I'm tired of putting up with the lousy experience.

Each of us evaluates all the pros and cons for ourselves but age is not the first factor for many of us as your opening sentence might suggest. :)

[/B][/QUOTE]

Exactly. At 53 I'm not quite ready for the nursing home. I have no desire to fly overseas to look at museuems, churches, or old architecture. It's just too painful for such little upside. I am only speaking for myself and my likes.

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

Maybe some new ports will come up ..