Elbe River

[Dr Millmoss]

I am not making it sound that way at all. I am only reporting what Viking is telling us.

 

Please read the articles I linked. This travel writer expresses my feelings exactly. Apparently I am far from the only one to have these concerns about what the river cruise companies tell their customers.

[gnome12]

I'm not disagreeing with you (or the author) about the need for advance warning of possibilities. I'm commenting that in terms of informing you about any specific sailing being affected they just don't know.

[Dr Millmoss]

The writer's point is the cruise companies know a lot more than they tell. Some did a bit of telling when he asked. Others (Viking conspicuously not included) did supply some general information about the percentage of river cruises that have experienced itinerary alterations due to river levels. The writer also mentions that cruise line typically offer some sort of compensation for disrupted itineraries. Viking said nothing about compensation in their email to us.

[Pyroforyou]

I have linked the very informational page about the Elbe from Cruise Critic. I would think that a person considering a trip would read about the location or in this case river. But if you dont want to read it, I will quote it -

===The Elbe can suffer from low water levels, especially in June and July. Riverboat operators adjust if a stretch of river is running either too high (causing a problem with low bridges) or too low (where the concern is that the boat might run aground). Sometimes passengers are bussed to destinations along the river or transferred (where possible) to boats in a different riverside location.

It's important to understand that fluctuating water levels are part and parcel of river cruising and beyond the control of operators. Be prepared -- quite literally -- to "go with the flow." ======

https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=1796

[Host Jazzbeau]

I understand your concern, and how as an experienced ocean cruise you thought you knew what you were doing. But river cruising and ocean cruising only have one thing in common: your hotel floats.

 

Perhaps you can try to understand the frustration of the posters who have responded to your thread: we are here all the time, with almost 175,000 posts on over 12,000 threads [and half a dozen Stickies maintained by yours truly to help newbie river cruisers]. Apparently you read none of this before booking your cruise, and now come to complain. So we feel like, "What are we, chopped liver?"

[Dr Millmoss]

I understand your concern, and how as an experienced ocean cruise you thought you knew what you were doing. But river cruising and ocean cruising only have one thing in common: your hotel floats.

 

Perhaps you can try to understand the frustration of the posters who have responded to your thread: we are here all the time, with almost 175,000 posts on over 12,000 threads [and half a dozen Stickies maintained by yours truly to help newbie river cruisers]. Apparently you read none of this before booking your cruise, and now come to complain. So we feel like, "What are we, chopped liver?"

 

Try to understand the frustration I am experiencing from being talked down to, more than once. It is not helpful to be told that I should have known better and the cruise line bears no responsibility to its customers, which appears to be your point. I am taking my time here as well. It was not difficult to show that others with a lot of experience with river cruises share the very same concerns I have expressed here. Perhaps you should not treat their opinions like chopped liver.

[Mark_T]

It was not difficult to show that others with a lot of experience with river cruises share the very same concerns I have expressed here. Perhaps you should not treat their opinions like chopped liver.

 

Those concerns you found, and more, are regularly discussed here and disclosed in the links to static information on these forums, that is why you are not getting any particular acknowledgement of your 'discovery' as it is both old news and no surprise to anyone who elects to ask questions here before they book a cruise.

 

You are not the first, and I'm sure you will not be the last, to go on their first river cruise with inadequate due diligence and a TA that failed to tell them all that they should have been aware of.

 

In that respect, the first link you found is right, I do think that the TA should play a bigger part in properly informing their customers of the risks attached to this type of vacation and in particular to some destinations.

 

The cruise providers do have much of this information, at least implied, in the small-print, but your TA should be the ones to highlight the reasons for the small-print...

 

With regard to advance notice, nothing much is going to change there, the cruise companies are not being unreasonable when they only tell you about a problem a couple of days or so before a cruise begins and when so many cruises actually begin with a land based portion, you could well be in-transit or at the destination hotel before there is actually a problem to report.

 

You would have the cruise lines allow you to move to a different cruise weeks and months ahead of a problem actually happening, I don't find that reasonable.

 

The insurance market has a term, 'inherent vice' which refers to inherent properties that damage or limit the survival or viability of something.

 

The 'river' part of a river cruise should perhaps be considered as an inherent vice and pretty much every cruise line would have to tell you there is a risk that pretty much every cruise might not take place if you force them to make statements weeks and months in advance.

 

The reality is that most cruises do take place, so the warnings don't get issued and your TA doesn't bother to tell you about the risk either.

 

Is it ideal? - obviously not, but it is a known and inherent risk of this type of vacation, so do please pardon our general lack of surprise here when it occasionally happens...

[notamermaid]

Hello Dr. Millmoss,

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer in detail.

 

You are saying that you were aware of the terms and conditions but regarded them as a more general warning leading you not to expect that problem three days before you leave on your river cruise. Had you been informed that the Elbe is prone to problems you would have reconcidered and perhaps gone with a Danube cruise instead as originally intended. I hope I am reading this correctly.

 

TA's sometimes are not familiar with river cruising as much as they could be - from what I have learned from past cruisers - but yours seems to be familiar with it more than the average TA. It is a pity then that he or she was not aware of the Elbe's problems. All rivers can have water related issues to a certain degree but the Elbe is the strongest affected by low waters and strong fluctuations when there are downpours in the area. Let me illustrate this with the graph for Dresden for the past month: https://www.pegelonline.wsv.de/webservices/zeitreihe/visualisierung?ansicht=einzeln&pegelnummer=501060

 

If you would like to keep this for reference copy and store it as it is updated every day to show the last 31 days. You are somewhat right in saying that the Elbe has had problems all Summer as the mean water level is at 184cm (noted as MW in the lines of text underneath the graph) and you can see from the graph that it had never reached that level ( I do not recall it having reached it in June but I did not check everyday). Currently the Elbe at Dresden is lower than the mean low water level (the MNW line). This is bad, to put it bluntly. Of course, Viking is aware of those figures. As you can see they are readily available online for reference by professionals (those have additional info of course) and amateurs like us.

 

We got most of our information directly from Viking online. The reservations were made through a local travel agent many months ago. We had originally considered taking a Danube cruise she was leading herself, but it booked up before we could decide. We tend to research climate conditions and the itinerary independently. We liked this itinerary and late August seemed like a good time to travel to this part of the world, after the peak summer travel season. As first time river cruisers it never occurred to us to be concerned about water levels in the river.

All cruise lines list similar caveats in their terms and conditions. Essentially they absolve themselves from any failure to reach a port, and so on. As I said we've been on plenty of big ship cruises and know and understand this well. The thrust of some of the responses to my concerns about how Viking has handled this summer of poor levels on the Elbe (never mind, the way they advertised the cruise) seems to be that not being more experienced with river cruises, we got what we deserved. I don't see you as saying that (danke!) but others are, more or less directly.

 

Sadly, this seems to be Viking's position on the matter, in effect. I suppose they have the right to sell a cruise that might not float a single meter on a river, and make us pay just the same. But then we have the right to never do business with them again.

 

It is your right and power as a consumer to say that you are not happy with the product they deliver (have delivered so far) and make others aware of it and I am sorry to read that you are surprised to hear of krillsister's experience. Viking has treated you differently from last year's cruisers it appears.

 

As a general note: it is frustrating for a cruise company to build two ships especially for the Elbe (as Viking has done) and then not being able to use them to maximum effect and profit. I am afraid I cannot see them changing the itineraries to reflect general concern of water levels on the Elbe for the reasons I have indicated in the past sentence (amortization). Whether that is necessary for as large a company as Viking to do I will not comment on.

 

I share your general concern/general question mark about information by your river cruise company and viable cruising on the Elbe and will read the two links you have provided with interest and perhaps comment further.

 

One last thing that struck me: you write that you will start in Wittenberg. I am a little puzzled as I thought the cruise portion starts or ends closer to Berlin. nicko cruises (German) goes from Prague to Potsdam: https://www.nicko-cruises.de/en/expose/regal-splendour-5/ I seem to remember that Viking cruisers have reported here to start in Potsdam or near there as I recall mentioning to a prospectiver cruiser that part of his cruise will be on the canal, not the Elbe. Is the cruise you are doing as advertised or had there been a change along the way? It seems a little short now. But perhaps it is a different itinerary that I remember.

 

Still hoping for rain for you or a nice reply from Viking that you can report about. Try to look forward to seeing an interesting part of Europe. I have not been to the Elbe, but people have reported great things about it and Prague is splendid!

 

notamermaid

Edited August 23, 2017 by notamermaid
spelling

[AnhaltER1960]

One last thing that struck me: you write that you will start in Wittenberg. I am a little puzzled as I thought the cruise portion starts or ends closer to Berlin. nicko cruises (German) goes from Prague to Potsdam: https://www.nicko-cruises.de/en/expo...l-splendour-5/ I seem to remember that Viking cruisers have reported here to start in Potsdam or near there as I recall mentioning to a prospectiver cruiser that part of his cruise will be on the canal, not the Elbe

 

Viking have changed their Elbe itinerary this year compared to the previous years. This was a reaction to the previous years, where there had been several weeks or even months of disruption due to low waters in autumn 2015 and in early summer and in autumn 2016. They used to sail from Magdeburg to Melnik, now they sail only Wittenberg to Decin, cutting the sailing by roughly one third. Pre-Programme of the Berlin - Prague Tours include a stay in Berlin (hotel), then a bus tour to Wittenberg, taking in en route Sanssouci Park in Potsdam and Wörlitz Gardens near Dessau and overnight stay on the ship. On the next day the actual sailing starts noon after a Wittenberg city tour.

 

This means, guests are on their journey for two days before they even see the ship, two and a half days before the ship starts sailing. In practice with the water levels low, but fluctuating, they (Viking) do not even know whether sailing will be possible, when they meet the guests in Berlin. A couple of weeks ago eg. the (dont remember if it was the Beyla or the Astrild) ship just reached Wittenberg at pretty low water levels. People on the ship I spoke to were sure the next journey upriver will not take place (at that time the guests have already their first day of the Berlin programme). Then there were heavy rainfall over night, the water level rose by six inches, even by almost two feet within the next two days, and the sailing could take place as scheduled. Inform people beforehand or not ? I take, it is a tricky one for the risk managers and I got the impression they wait as long as possible. So far they have been right this season, as the water levels had been low, but too low only for very few cruises with most cruises going ahead as scheduled or only with minor changes.

[notamermaid]

Thank you AnhaltER 1960,

 

very interesting.

 

Just in case anybody is wondering about drafts of ships on the Elbe. Viking is proud of its innovative design on the Elbe specifically designed for its shallow waters. The Viking Beyla has a draft of 95cm (German source) and maximum 1.15m (German wikipedia), marinetraffic says 1m. The Viking Schumann the older vessel now no longer used by Viking is supposed to have a draft of 80cm to 1.00m (German source). The Elbe Princesse of CroisiEurope has a draft of 90cm (German source).

 

 

River level at Dresden right now: 70cm. NB: this is the official gauge not the depth of the navigation channel.

 

notamermaid

Edited August 24, 2017 by notamermaid
additional information

[AnhaltER1960]

To add to the confusion of the draft, Cruise Critic https://www.cruisecritic.com/reviews/review.cfm?ShipID=895 states the Beyla and her sister ship Astrild can sail with only 84 cm water depth. So indeed Viking did adapt that ship design. Though they look like the longships on other rivers they are shorter and have less draft to accomodate the special conditions of the Elbe. This does not help in very dry conditions. But last year the Beyla and the Astrild were the last ships able to sail, when other ships like River Allegro of Grand Circle or the Viking Fontane and the Viking Schumann (all those ships not sailing the Elbe this year) were long grounded.

 

So certainly you cannot blame Viking for not trying to adapt to the conditions of the river. The reason, why its always Viking in the forums with that wemightnotbeabletosail is simply, they are the only ones who sail the Elbe continuously all season from March to Oktober (or even beyond that). Other cruise lines do only few sailings on that river, mostly in spring.

[notamermaid]

Yes, Viking has indeed made a great effort, it just sounds bigger in the news than it is, in the end. But we all know how marketing works. No problem with that. The more modern ships are certainly better for the environment in the long run, as well.

 

As regards the sailings of other companies: CroisiEurope sails on the Elbe regularly but not on the route that Viking does, more downstream and the Havel as well as the Oder. The stretch including Dresden on the Elbe Princesse is only offered on a few sailings (including in autumn).

 

And it concludes from there that Viking will "statistically-naturally" come up more in forums - as you rightly say - with sailing or no sailing discussions.

 

Are there any discussions in the non-Anglo-world about cancellations on the Elbe that you know of?

 

notamermaid

[CPT Trips]

Just to add a bit to AnhaltER1960's post. Grand Circle did indeed have Significant difficulties cruising the Elbe in 2015, the year we travelled, and likely other years. They are not cruising it this year. However they are advertising the trip for 2018.

We were informed about two weeks before that trip that we may not cruise the river and were provided with several satisfactory options. 2015 proved the value of Cruise Critic as I was well aware of the water level problems on the Elbe and I was well prepared for "the call."

[notamermaid]

CPT Trips,

 

without giving too much away, is it possible for you to remind us what option you chose?

 

notamermaid

[Viking Cruises]

Dear Dr Millmoss,

 

We’ve taken a moment to review your recent comments on these boards and sincerely regret to learn of your disappointment.

 

The concern you've expressed about the potential changes to your itinerary is understandable, and to discuss your specific apprehensions, we'd appreciate the opportunity to have a conversation with you to before you depart.

 

Recognizing that your flight is only days away, we invite you to reach out to us at TellUs@vikingcruises.com so that we may immediately connect you with a seasoned member of our Customer Relations team.

 

We do look forward to cruising with you, Dr Millmoss, and hope that we can successfully restore your enthusiasm for the upcoming voyage.

 

Best regards,

Viking Cruises

Thanks for the replies and good wishes.

 

I can think of any number of ways Viking could be handling this situation better. They know the historical conditions on the Elbe and perhaps should be offering Elbe cruises only in the months when the river conditions are likely to be sufficient. Apparently spring is best on this river. So perhaps they should not offer mid-or-late summer cruises, if they are often interrupted. They could have disclosed in the probabilities of the cruise not proceeding as advertised when we booked, so that we could decide whether we wanted to take the risk with this cruise or book another. No doubt they are perfectly aware of those numbers, they just don't tell their customers. Also, the Elbe has been a problem all summer. So they could have offered us an alternative cruise, perhaps weeks ago, when it was apparent that low water was a continuing issue this year. They could have also have skipped the abrupt email that tells us essentially nothing but that our cruise may be ruined.

 

When this email arrived I called our travel agent. Not a lot she can do but commiserate. We do have cruise insurance that may cover cancellation for any reason, but we are also traveling with another couple, so this is not really a good option even if we were able to take it at this very, very late date. It is also not at all easy for us to find two weeks when we can get away. Just a bad situation altogether made worse I think by Viking not being as upfront or as informative as they might be. They may well believe that giving their customers better information is bad for business but my message to them is this way is even worse for business.

[CPT Trips]

Short answer to notamermaid's question - We took the trip.

It was great. Received a deposit to the bank account we used for payment. Plus we received a future cruise credit of a percentage of the per diem trip cost for each day we should have cruised but didn't. I can't recall with accuracy those amounts.

 

Long answer, skip if you choose.

 

This itinerary is basically half hotel (Berlin and Prague) and half trip. We spent half the cruise portion of the trip on the ship bottomed out in Wittenburg; the other half in a hotel in Dresden. Bussed from those sites to our scheduled tours. It was great to have extra days in Dresden! All meals were provided on the "cruise" days and a dinner show was provided on one of the meal on your own days in Prague.

 

 

Two optionals were provided to everyone as part of the making things right. Only about 40 people selected this option. Normally that would have meant one PD and one bus; we had two, so more personal attention than GCT's usual great service.

 

 

The other options were:

1- choice of several other trips later that year at the same price as paid for the Elbe with a future cruise credit in addition,

2- use the price paid for a cruise the following year, or

3- cancel and full refund.

I can't recall with certainty, but these options may also received the same refund that we did. I'm not sure what the deal was if on independent air and not doing the trip.

We had about a week to make a decision. So the list of trips included in option 1 could shrink as people chose them. Waiting had a downside.

[AnhaltER1960]

Are there any discussions in the non-Anglo-world about cancellations on the Elbe that you know of?

 

 

No, I dont. But a felt 97 % of the Elbe cabins are sold to the english-speaking market. So it might be hard to find non-english debates on that.

[AnhaltER1960]

Bad news for Elbe cruises this week. Ships arent sailing at all. And not much rainfall in sight.

[notamermaid]

Indeed, not looking good at all. A clear sky over most of Germany today and warm weather ahead on the Elbe. The river level at Dresden is at 69cm right now. Dr. Millmoss must be in the country by now. I wonder how they are getting on.

 

notamermaid

[AnhaltER1960]

Dr. Millmoss must be in the country by now. I wonder how they are getting on.

 

notamermaid

 

From what I read in #60, the journey Dr Millmoss had booked, starts today (Aug 27th). Start is in Prague. First sailing would be from Decin to Dresden on Day 4 of the journey, that is next Wednesday (30th). Sailing is scheduled to end in Wittenberg Sat., Sep 2nd.

 

With the current water leves, dry weather in the region, I dare to predict, there wont be much sailing on the river. But lets see.

[AnhaltER1960]

With water levels low, but stable and finally some rainfall in Saxony and Boehmia on this Thursday and more expected the next days, things are looking better on the Elbe. The Astrild has left Wittenberg sailing upriver, also the Beyla is moving and heading towards Wittenberg (though I dont know, if she started at Decin -which would be the regular schedule- or further downriver).

[notamermaid]

After some rain and rising river levels the Elbe has seen low levels again for a few days. This situation is reflected in the fact that Viking has a notice on their website for the upcoming cruises in a couple of days being affected potentially. However, the situation is not as bad as it had been in August. Dresden is at 85cm right now. Rain is falling in the area and in the Czech Republic. Hopefully this will improve the situation further.

 

notamermaid

[AnhaltER1960]

I would appreciate if ihose who raised concerns before their cruise wold kindly give feedback, how (or if) their cruise was affected in the end. This could also help to jugde, which water levels really do the cut.

 

For the time being I do not see hazards for the upcoming cruises as the water levels look stable and there is the occasional rainfall in the area.

[notamermaid]

The Elbe has reached low water levels again, it was at the official mark for mean low water but had gained a coulpe of inches since then, fluctuating a bit, yet the drop compared to last week is significant. This is a screen shot of today lunchtime (GMT+2):

 

 

 

It was worse in August but if it does not rain more it will not be possible to settle down and relax about the upcoming cruises.

 

notamermaid

 

P.S.: Sorry about the image size, do not know how to make this smaller.

[notamermaid]

The Elbe had profited from some rain over the last few days but this weekend sees the level falling to a critical level again. Today it is "staying put" at 80cm. Not good at all. If travellers out there have reports for us (please state on what date you were in which town) we would love to hear from you.

 

notamermaid