First North American Cruise Line Vaccine Mandate

[cured]

30 minutes ago, NateUpNorth said:

 

Yes, it is unknown, therefore is mandatory vaccination the key to everything? In this case the resumption of cruising? Which is the basis for my point about virus transmission made in my previous point.

.......should vaccinated people be allowed on that cruise ship knowing they could still be A) a non carrier and then obtain it on said cruise ship and B) when they leave that ship pass it on?

It is the choice of the business whether they decide mandating a vaccine is better for their bottom line or they would alienate more passengers by mandating the vaccine.

 

Back to the original topic of the first cruise line to mandate vaccines. It is a private business. No one has a right to cruise on a particular cruise line, no matter what you believe about childhood spread. Bottom line is that the decision will be made by the company. Whether you agree or disagree will have no bearing on their decision.

Edited February 4, 2021 by cured

[cured]

6 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

If you would come spend a day in the Emergency Room with me on any given weekend during flu season you would see the ravages of influenza; however I would not be in favor of mandatory flu vaccine to cruise, unless the WHO declares Influenza a global pandemic, and millions die.

Maybe this will help those that don't quite comprehend science:

 

This is an eye opening Op-Ed by an emergency room physician. Note the ages of the deceased. They are not all "Old People"

 

https://www.medpagetoday.com/criticalcare/intensivists/90956?xid=nl_secondopinion_2021-02-02&eun=g1603815d0r

This past week has probably been the most brutal week I have ever experienced in the past 22 years of working in an ICU. Our team looks after two units with six ventilated COVID ICU patients in each. This week we lost: Jasrin (60), Anita (24), Thania (33), Niel (44), Maria (35), Shiela (44), Frank (64), Ed (48), Chipo (64), Mary (52), Precious (54), Martha (62), un-named (28 weeks).*....

 

 

[lizzius]

15 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

If you would come spend a day in the Emergency Room with me on any given weekend during flu season you would see the ravages of influenza; however I would not be in favor of mandatory flu vaccine to cruise, unless the WHO declares Influenza a global pandemic, and millions die.

It's a question of relative risk considering two hypotheticals, and you answered with non sequitur. 

 

It's also somewhat personal to me: I spent three nights in the hospital with my newborn after we caught the flu 10 days after she was born. I found out later that her pediatrician at the time didn't require flu vaccinations for nursing staff, and we promptly found a new pediatrician.

 

Your ideological inconsistency is noted, though.

Edited February 4, 2021 by lizzius

[cured]

39 minutes ago, lizzius said:

 

In addition, you can look at the carve outs other countries are beginning to make in their policies toward children.

Like Portugal that just shut down all their schools due to increased spread linked to open schools due to the more contagious variants?

 

Or the UK that has closed all schools?

 

Or the Netherlands where they are doing hybrid for elementary age?

 

Only Germany, France and Spain are fully open.

[NateUpNorth]

3 minutes ago, cured said:

Maybe this will help those that don't quite comprehend science:

 

This is an eye opening Op-Ed by an emergency room physician. Note the ages of the deceased. They are not all "Old People"

 

https://www.medpagetoday.com/criticalcare/intensivists/90956?xid=nl_secondopinion_2021-02-02&eun=g1603815d0r

This past week has probably been the most brutal week I have ever experienced in the past 22 years of working in an ICU. Our team looks after two units with six ventilated COVID ICU patients in each. This week we lost: Jasrin (60), Anita (24), Thania (33), Niel (44), Maria (35), Shiela (44), Frank (64), Ed (48), Chipo (64), Mary (52), Precious (54), Martha (62), un-named (28 weeks).*....

 

 

 

I think you do your comment a dis-service by opening with your first sentence.

 

Do not think anything I've said was intended to be pitting one demographic against another, many of the comments here do a great job of that regardless of my input.
 

My questions were intended only to understand a point of view.... which seem to have triggered reactions that were unintended. I only strived to understand if people truly believe that vaccinations are the golden ticket to resuming their lives despite the question I have twice stated regarding ability to contract/transmit even when vaccinated. 

[NateUpNorth]

4 minutes ago, cured said:

Like Portugal that just shut down all their schools due to increased spread linked to open schools due to the more contagious variants?

 

Or the UK that has closed all schools?

 

Or the Netherlands where they are doing hybrid for elementary age?

 

Only Germany, France and Spain are fully open.

 

Again a comment for consideration, nothing more and nothing less:

 

In our school system it was open until Xmas.

It wasn't until the kids stayed home over Xmas that the numbers shot up and they shut it down.

Was it school that caused the spread? Or staying home over Xmas? 

And when that is answered, what is the proper way forward? Fortunately not my call.
 

Edited February 4, 2021 by NateUpNorth

[lizzius]

5 minutes ago, cured said:

Like Portugal that just shut down all their schools due to increased spread linked to open schools due to the more contagious variants?

 

Or the UK that has closed all schools?

 

Or the Netherlands where they are doing hybrid for elementary age?

 

Only Germany, France and Spain are fully open.

No, more like the discussions around vaccine passports in the schengen zone excluding requirements for compliance among children. I'm quite obviously not talking about countries that haven't contained COVID... My point is and has always been vaccines for children are not required to get back to normal, and there is no path to eradication resting on their tiny little shoulders in light of early decisions we made, and the fact that all evidence points to virus circulating to at least some degree even among the vaccinated. 

 

Asking them to continue this charade once most of us are safe is cruelty... Especially considering the disregard we have for doing what we must to contain and mitigate pediatric flu. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by lizzius

[cured]

21 minutes ago, NateUpNorth said:

 

"The first"

Ocean Boy is correct when he says it is still unknown. There are many other vaccines out there that have been administered that haven't said that.

 

So if you are vaccinated but a child is not, do you still maintain that child shouldn't be allowed to cruise until vaccinated?

Really doesn't matter now does it?

The decision is up to the cruise line and the ports of call they visit. If they mandate the vaccine, so be it.  You have freedom of choice to patronize a business or a country mandating a vaccine or not mandating a vaccine.

 

I am 100% for mandated vaccines. Every time a person contracts the disease, even if the symptoms are mild, that person is a possible vector for further mutation no matter how small the chance.  Allowing unvaccinated people of any age that can spread the virus to congregate in closed spaces out in the middle of the ocean without a hospital nearby would be scientifically irresponsible.  

 

So would allowing unvaccinated people to disembark onto an island that may or may not have the vaccination status of bigger countries be scientifically irresponsible.

[not-enough-cruising]

15 minutes ago, lizzius said:

It's a question of relative risk considering two hypotheticals, and you answered with non sequitur. 

 

It's also somewhat personal to me: I spent three nights in the hospital with my newborn after we caught the flu 10 days after she was born. I found out later that her pediatrician at the time didn't require flu vaccinations for nursing staff, and we promptly found a new pediatrician.

 

Your ideological inconsistency is noted, though.

No inconsistency, a global pandemic always has a different set of rules.

 

I would like to say i have enjoyed our discussion, but honestly I have not. I hope your world returns to normal soon, and your family and mine are soon out to sea.

 

Cheers

[easyqueasy]

13 minutes ago, cured said:

So would allowing unvaccinated people to disembark onto an island that may or may not have the vaccination status of bigger countries be scientifically irresponsible.

So what you’re saying is being vaccinated means you can board the ship because you can’t possibly pass it to the people at the next port? I’m also curious since it’s Royal’s choice, how many people that have been vaccinated will cruise if Royal choose to not have mandatory vaccination? 

[lizzius]

18 minutes ago, cured said:

 

So would allowing unvaccinated people to disembark onto an island that may or may not have the vaccination status of bigger countries be scientifically irresponsible.

It would also be irresponsible to let vaccinated passengers loose given what we know about transmission post-vaccination. We're all in this together... Vaccines aren't a short-cut, or a requirement for all, to get back to normal.

[cured]

29 minutes ago, easyqueasy said:

So what you’re saying is being vaccinated means you can board the ship because you can’t possibly pass it to the people at the next port? I’m also curious since it’s Royal’s choice, how many people that have been vaccinated will cruise if Royal choose to not have mandatory vaccination? 

Not saying that at all as the data is not all in yet. The current data is showing that transmission is cut significantly but the scientists cannot definitively say that transmission is cut 100%. Since the vaccines have only been out for a short time, that data is still being gathered.  However, looking at natural immunity from disease (which is now showing at least 8 months of immunity,) that bodes well for the data showing that the current vaccines lower the viral load to a point where transmission is negligible.  But none of that is proven yet and in fact early data could be proven wrong as more data come in.

 

What is known is that having no vaccine does transmit 100%.  

 

It is completely up to the cruise lines and the ports to decide if they want unvaccinated people on their ships or their islands.

 

The Cayman Islands and now Canada have decided no cruise ships, vaccinated or not, will be allowed to port till 2022.  I suspect many others will follow.

 

By 2022, we should not only have a vaccine for children to allow them to cruise.  Additionally, the data should be in on the transmission rates on the various vaccines.

 

Until then, if ports will allow cruising or just cruising to the private islands, current scientific data suggests that having a 100% vaccinated population significantly lessens the transmission possibilities. Adding unvaccinated people will up that statistic greatly.  

And yes, our family, including a scientist working on one of the vaccines, will not cruise in the near future without a vaccine mandate even if vaccinated.  Why should I chance getting the virus, even mildly, as there is more and more compelling data that even a mild case can cause lasting damage.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by cured

[cured]

21 minutes ago, lizzius said:

It would also be irresponsible to let vaccinated passengers loose given what we know about transmission post-vaccination. We're all in this together... Vaccines aren't a short-cut, or a requirement for all, to get back to normal.

Luckily it is not up to you. It is the sole decision of the cruise line and the ports of call.

 

So far, the Cayman Islands and Canada have said nope, not until 2022.  If other ports say only vaccinated ships are allowed, then Royal Caribbean will be making that decision.

It is a business. If they are going to be able to sail with a vaccine mandate and ports of call will be more open to allowing a ship in with a vaccine mandate, then that is what they will do to protect their bottom line.

 

This thread was about the first North American cruise line to mandate a vaccine.  Who knows if the big guys will follow.  But just like this small river boat company, the big guys are entitled to make their own decisions for their company based on what science tells them and what their accountants tell them.

[lizzius]

43 minutes ago, cured said:

So far, the Cayman Islands and Canada have said nope, not until 2022.  If other ports say only vaccinated ships are allowed, then Royal Caribbean will be making that decision.

Both of those places are looking until at least that long to get their populations vaccinated... Like I said earlier: it makes no sense to welcome cruise ships (even if they're full of vaccinated passengers) while you're asking your citizens to make sacrifices.

 

Of course it's not up to us... We are all just here pining for an end to this. We just have two very different interpretations of the world during the pandemic and the way out of this. 

[MommaBear55]

On 2/3/2021 at 4:49 PM, lizzius said:

We are *all* a hairs breath away from being that statistic for one reason or another. Life is full of risk... For most kids, COVID is not one of them.

 

But those kids can kill their grandparents

[lizzius]

59 minutes ago, MommaBear55 said:

But those kids can kill their grandparents

Yes, that's why we're doing what we're doing now. All of the grandmas and grandpas in our lives are in the metaphorical line for vaccines, and we're doing our part to stay isolated while everyone else convinces the people they care about to do the same.

[Ocean Boy]

So, do you think the major cruise lines will follow along and mandate vaccines....🤔🙄

[lizzius]

1 hour ago, Ocean Boy said:

So, do you think the major cruise lines will follow along and mandate vaccines....🤔🙄

Do you think grandma and grandpa are going to wait until my littles have vaccines before they rejoin us at dinner parties and birthdays?

[Ellaleah]

9 hours ago, cured said:

The decision is up to the cruise line and the ports of call they visit. If they mandate the vaccine, so be it.  You have freedom of choice to patronize a business or a country mandating a vaccine or not mandating a vaccine.

 

I am 100% for mandated vaccines. Every time a person contracts the disease, even if the symptoms are mild, that person is a possible vector for further mutation no matter how small the chance.  Allowing unvaccinated people of any age that can spread the virus to congregate in closed spaces out in the middle of the ocean without a hospital nearby would be scientifically irresponsible.  

 

So would allowing unvaccinated people to disembark onto an island that may or may not have the vaccination status of bigger countries be scientifically irresponsible.

Amen!  I wish there was a poll on here cause I’d like to be on your cruise.  I rebooked for 12/22, but no way I’m going with the unvaccinated!

[Ocean Boy]

9 hours ago, lizzius said:

Do you think grandma and grandpa are going to wait until my littles have vaccines before they rejoin us at dinner parties and birthdays?

How would I know?

[Mapleleafforever]

10 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

So, do you think the major cruise lines will follow along and mandate vaccines....🤔🙄

I believe they will and probably have no choice. Is it also possible though that at least for the first  year or two they require passengers to have a Dr's note proving they're healthy enough to sail seeing as the vaccines aren't 100% effective and they can't really afford any hiccups?

Edited February 5, 2021 by Mapleleafforever

[lizzius]

44 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

How would I know?

Because you tried to use someone's faux concern over (soon to be vaccinated) grandparents to a larger conclusion over cruising.

 

And the answer is of course they're not going to stay away from the dirty "unvaccinated", to use the tone of so many others in these boards. 

[Mapleleafforever]

14 minutes ago, lizzius said:

Because you tried to use someone's faux concern over (soon to be vaccinated) grandparents to a larger conclusion over cruising.

 

And the answer is of course they're not going to stay away from the dirty "unvaccinated", to use the tone of so many others in these boards. 

Here's the thing. We don't even know for 100% certainty that the grandparents will be able to cruise either. These are uncharted waters (no pun intended) and Royal has already floated Dr's notes and no cruisers over 70 last year. Was in writing I believe. It's alllllll speculation so far.

[lizzius]

9 minutes ago, Mapleleafforever said:

Here's the thing. We don't even know for 100% certainty that the grandparents will be able to cruise either. These are uncharted waters (no pun intended) and Royal has already floated Dr's notes and no cruisers over 70 last year. Was in writing I believe. It's alllllll speculation so far.

I get that, and I think we're all just trying to get our thoughts in order. I believe you're in the other thread where some posters are already denigrating the value of Russian and Chinese vaccines while simultaneously expressing outrage at the idea that in this theoretical world of vaccine requirements there could feasibly be exemptions for crew... It's just illogical, and betrays that quite a few posters here have no idea of what the rest of the world is facing in terms of supply, or approval processes in their own countries. All they know is that they can get an appointment at Publix (or should be able to soon). That means we call can, right?

Edited February 5, 2021 by lizzius

[Ocean Boy]

38 minutes ago, lizzius said:

Because you tried to use someone's faux concern over (soon to be vaccinated) grandparents to a larger conclusion over cruising.

 

And the answer is of course they're not going to stay away from the dirty "unvaccinated", to use the tone of so many others in these boards. 

Did I?

 

I am glad your family is able to get together in some sort of normal way during these times and I hope things continue to go well for all of you. There are some on this forum who have not been so fortunate when it comes to contact with the virus in question. We all tend to formulate our opinions based on our experiences. I have dealt wirh the dark side of this virus. I truly hope you never have to. Hopefully, life will return to normal sooner than later for all. And then your family will be able to go on multi generational family cruises, as mine has in the past, and produce memories for you that you will always cherish like the ones that I have.