Carnival's Status on Federal Judge's Order

[CoffeeGoddess]

So here's a question that I haven't seen anything about in some time. Where is Carnival at with certifying each of its ships are environmentally compliant at least 30 days before resuming service in the United States as per the federal judges order?

 

Pushing aside all of the other pandemic items, staffing, and port readiness; if they were given the "all clear" on that tomorrow where would they be with meeting the environmental conditions?  Like I said I haven't seen any real mention of this in some time so was wondering if they had taken this time when they are not cruising to fix this or are they waiting on fixing this as well or maybe hoping it goes away. Anyone out there have any knowledge of this?

[firefly333]

I'd bet none of these inspections have been done as ordered by the miami judge. Since they have no plans to sail from close by ports and unlikely to sail before nov 1st, no hurry I'm sure to carnival. 

 

Ships have barely even been in usa waters to have inspections done.

[CoffeeGoddess]

1 minute ago, firefly333 said:

I'd bet none of these inspections have been done as ordered by the miami judge. Since they have no plans to sail from close by ports and unlikely to sail before nov 1st, no hurry I'm sure to carnival. 

 

Ships have barely even been in usa waters to have inspections done.

 

My understanding was that several, if not the majority, of their ships required changes to their systems to be able to even meet the requirements. If they haven't done that yet, then they can't get inspected. I'm not a maritime engineer but even here on land fixing or replacing piping and equipment takes some time.

[firefly333]

1 minute ago, CoffeeGoddess said:

 

My understanding was that several, if not the majority, of their ships required changes to their systems to be able to even meet the requirements. If they haven't done that yet, then they can't get inspected. I'm not a maritime engineer but even here on land fixing or replacing piping and equipment takes some time.

Yes I read some might need to be dry docked to get the needed changes.

 

I think this has been going on for like 9 years and the miami judge just got mad and said no more until ships pass inspection. 

 

I was replying to the OP who thought these inspections might just go away.

[CoffeeGoddess]

Just now, firefly333 said:

Yes I read some might need to be dry docked to get the needed changes.

 

I think this has been going on for like 9 years and the miami judge just got mad and said no more until ships pass inspection. 

 

I was replying to the OP who thought these inspections might just go away.

 

I am the OP. I didn't think the inspections might just go away I was wondering if Carnival management was hoping they might just go away.

[BlerkOne]

It might go away. Carnival is well past halfway in their probation and clearly has cut plastic use by well over half. If any ships needed modification, perhaps they were scrapped or otherwise removed from the fleet. I think mostly it was to stop dumping in protected areas which was to be mitigated by updated software. Getting rid of plastic straws helps - you can't dump plastic if you don't use any.

 

The last court date I saw listed was April 2020 which I doubt happened and the judge was supposed to retire some time ago.

 

"Before the ships resume operations, Seitz said she is most concerned about them having the right pollution-prevention equipment, critical environmental spare parts, staffing, voyage planning software, and vetting of waste vendors on shore, all things the company has struggled to maintain in compliance during its years on probation. Outdated equipment has caused plastic to go overboard, and faulty voyage planning has caused ships to repeatedly dump sewage and other pollutants into protected marine areas in violation of national and international laws."

[mondello]

Story I found says some ships were using old style pulverizers for food waste and dumping at sea. Upgrades (not cheap) would be digester machines that eliminate dumping. More concerning is the existence of a "magic pipe" which allows the discharge of oily waste into the ocean.

[jetsfan58]

I really believe that the priority right now is floating on the seas again asap. I am not saying that any safety measure should be overlooked, however, I don't think that is a major concern right now. As Blerk stated above "It might Go Away". Any additional delays will certainly mean more gloom and possible doom for the industry. Unfortunately deals will be made that we will never know about.

[CoffeeGoddess]

Well, this article from the Miami Herald on 1/27/21 shows Carnival hasn't actually done anything yet.

Carnival’s environmental violations persist as it waits out COVID-19 pandemic

 

Personally, I think unless they comply with the order they shouldn't be allowed back in U.S. waters since they have shown time and again failure to comply.

[firefly333]

5 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

It might go away. Carnival is well past halfway in their probation and clearly has cut plastic use by well over half. If any ships needed modification, perhaps they were scrapped or otherwise removed from the fleet. I think mostly it was to stop dumping in protected areas which was to be mitigated by updated software. Getting rid of plastic straws helps - you can't dump plastic if you don't use any.

 

The last court date I saw listed was April 2020 which I doubt happened and the judge was supposed to retire some time ago.

 

"Before the ships resume operations, Seitz said she is most concerned about them having the right pollution-prevention equipment, critical environmental spare parts, staffing, voyage planning software, and vetting of waste vendors on shore, all things the company has struggled to maintain in compliance during its years on probation. Outdated equipment has caused plastic to go overboard, and faulty voyage planning has caused ships to repeatedly dump sewage and other pollutants into protected marine areas in violation of national and international laws."

The miami judge order for every carnival ship to be inspected was only last year. Not that long ago.

 

They didnt do away with plastic straws, just now you have to ask for one. I had no trouble finding straws at that bar thing in the back of the back buffet and would take a couple and put them in my purse for later. I'm sure fewer are used but not all gone.

[BlerkOne]

3 hours ago, CoffeeGoddess said:

Well, this article from the Miami Herald on 1/27/21 shows Carnival hasn't actually done anything yet.

Carnival’s environmental violations persist as it waits out COVID-19 pandemic

 

Personally, I think unless they comply with the order they shouldn't be allowed back in U.S. waters since they have shown time and again failure to comply.

Well, Carnival ships have been back in US waters so something changed.

[BlerkOne]

18 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

The miami judge order for every carnival ship to be inspected was only last year. Not that long ago.

 

They didnt do away with plastic straws, just now you have to ask for one. I had no trouble finding straws at that bar thing in the back of the back buffet and would take a couple and put them in my purse for later. I'm sure fewer are used but not all gone.

The 5 year probation began in 2017. Nothing stops you from bringing a case of straws onto the ship. But as Carnival isn't sailing, they aren't consuming much of anything.

[chengkp75]

Carnival ships have been back in US waters, but are not operating.  Due to covid restrictions, the auditors have not been allowed to board the ships to ascertain if the ships are in compliance.  So, this will likely result in a "moratorium" of their probation during this time they are shut down.  Plastic straws, and plastic dumping, while the "poster child" of the case (and the violation that goes back over 10 years for Princess), are really just the tip of the iceberg as far as the violations noted by the auditors are concerned.  This is not going to "go away".  DOJ and federal judges have long memories when it comes to maritime pollution cases, and the fact that Carnival Corp got off very lightly, especially after the second round of violations was noted.  

 

Someone mentioned food waste digestors, as opposed to the "pulper" type centralized garbage disposal systems.  Food waste is not considered to be pollution, and food waste discharged, within the geographical limits set forth, even from a mere garbage disposal, is not prohibited.  The legal limit is that the food waste has to pass through a 1" screen.

 

Carnival Corp has not been spending any money on improvements to ensure compliance, since they already have a cash flow problem, but the judge mentioned that the ships had "nothing but time" now, and had complained previously that they could not do improvements while in service, so I don't believe she will be all that sympathetic.

[BlerkOne]

18 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

service, so I don't believe she will be all that sympathetic.

Well, she is 74-75 years old and will retire someday.

 

and from over a year ago

:

Assistant U.S. Attorney Richard Udell said independent audits show “a lot of problems on a lot of ships.” But he also said Carnival deserves credit for the steps it has taken so far.

 

“There is positive movement. We're still saying Carnival is not there,” Udell said.

[CoffeeGoddess]

18 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Carnival Corp has not been spending any money on improvements to ensure compliance, since they already have a cash flow problem, but the judge mentioned that the ships had "nothing but time" now, and had complained previously that they could not do improvements while in service, so I don't believe she will be all that sympathetic.

 

That's exactly why I posted this, and thanks for your input. From all the articles I've read it sounded like the Judge was really fed up with Carnival and I would not be surprised if they try to start up once the whole Covid issue is addressed and find out they can't because the Judge isn't playing anymore.

 

As for retiring someday, look, I work at a Department of Energy site s and we have people who have been there over 40 years and in their seventies who show no signs of wanting to retire.

Edited March 27, 2021 by CoffeeGoddess
clarification

[BlerkOne]

18 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Carnival Corp has not been spending any money on improvements to ensure compliance, since they already have a cash flow problem, but the judge mentioned that the ships had "nothing but time" now, and had complained previously that they could not do improvements while in service, so I don't believe she will be all that sympathetic.

 

Carnival did eliminate a number of their older ships and perhaps most of the biggest problems and has newer, more green ships on the horizon.

[chengkp75]

Just now, BlerkOne said:

 

Carnival did eliminate a number of their older ships and perhaps most of the biggest problems and has newer, more green ships on the horizon.

The problem goes much deeper than just equipment being "greener".  And, the Queen Mary 2 was a frequently cited ship in the auditor's reports.  The problem is corporate culture, and not believing in environmental compliance from the very top down.  The ship can have the most advanced waste treatment equipment, but if the corporate leadership do not embrace and teach compliance, and as has happened in many cases in the past, instead says "we just won't pay for parts to maintain that equipment, so you (the crew) have to make the problem (whatever waste stream is under discussion) go away".  This is why there are "magic pipes" on oil/water separators.  No engineer wakes up and says "today I'm going to risk my license and livelihood by bypassing environmental equipment to save the company money".  The major focus of the compliance probation and audits, is the "process" and ensuring that the process works:  the oil/water separator breaks down, the Chief knows he cannot pump this overboard, so he notifies the office, the office makes arrangements for the parts required to be purchased, or for the bilge water to be discharged to a slop barge in port.  Yes, the required equipment broke down, but that happens.  How the company reacts to this failure is the big question.  To date, Carnival Corp has shown that it responds to environmental problems by ignoring them.

[BlerkOne]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

stream is under discussion) go away".  This is why there are "magic pipes" on oil/water separators.  No engineer wakes up and says "today I'm going to risk my license and livelihood by bypassing environmental equipment to save the company money". 

What Carnival ship has "magic pipes"? If there was proof of that I would think Carnival would be in bigger trouble.

 

Carnival hired a compliance officer and even the government says Carnival has made progress.

[chengkp75]

55 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

What Carnival ship has "magic pipes"? If there was proof of that I would think Carnival would be in bigger trouble.

 

Carnival hired a compliance officer and even the government says Carnival has made progress.

That would be Caribbean Princess, Star Princess, Grand Princess, Coral Princess, and Golden Princess:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/02/the-40m-magic-pipe-princess-cruises-given-record-fine-for-dumping-oil-at-sea

 

As this is what placed Carnival Corp on probation in the first place, it is well documented.

 

And, in the first year of probation, the auditor found that while Carnival's compliance officer had been given the responsibility to ensure compliance, he had not been given the authority, nor the budget to do anything about non-compliance.  This was changed, after the second fine, with a reorganization and a new compliance officer, but then the pandemic struck and audits stopped, and ship operations stopped, so it is too soon to see if the culture at the corporate level has changed.  This is one of the major faults the auditors found, and one that the judge has not seen improvement in when she made her comments about progress at the start of the shutdown.

[BlerkOne]

The most recent article I found from Jan 2020

 

"Assistant U.S. Attorney Richard Udell said independent audits show “a lot of problems on a lot of ships.” But he also said Carnival deserves credit for the steps it has taken so far.

 

“There is positive movement. We’re still saying Carnival is not there,” Udell said."

 

and this was from 2016

"

As this is what placed Carnival Corp on probation in the first place, it is well documented.

 

And, in the first year of probation, the auditor found that while Carnival's compliance officer had been given the responsibility to ensure compliance, he had not been given the authority, nor the budget to do anything about non-compliance.  This was changed, after the second fine, with a reorganization and a new compliance officer, but then the pandemic struck and audits stopped, and ship operations stopped, so it is too soon to see if the culture at the corporate level has changed.  This is one of the major faults the auditors found, and one that the judge has not seen improvement in when she made her comments about progress at the start of the shutdown.

[chengkp75]

41 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

"Assistant U.S. Attorney Richard Udell said independent audits show “a lot of problems on a lot of ships.” But he also said Carnival deserves credit for the steps it has taken so far.

 

“There is positive movement. We’re still saying Carnival is not there,” Udell said."

" a lot of problems on a lot of ships" still shows that the corporate culture has not been changed, or this would be limited to a few ships. After 4 years of probation, there should be zero instances of violations on any of Carnival's ships.  I know, I have worked for 2 companies that were placed under DOJ probation like Carnival, one of which was NCL.  Well, before year 4, we had policies, and had audits that showed that the process worked, and there were no violations.  NCL's statement was "there is no budget limit on environmental".  If Carnival is still having problems, they need to send out compliance teams that truly believe in compliance, to preach this to the crew, and show that the head office is truly behind their efforts at compliance.

[BlerkOne]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

" a lot of problems on a lot of ships" still shows that the corporate culture has not been changed, or this would be limited to a few ships. After 4 years of probation, there should be zero instances of violations on any of Carnival's ships.  I know, I have worked for 2 companies that were placed under DOJ probation like Carnival, one of which was NCL.  Well, before year 4, we had policies, and had audits that showed that the process worked, and there were no violations.  NCL's statement was "there is no budget limit on environmental".  If Carnival is still having problems, they need to send out compliance teams that truly believe in compliance, to preach this to the crew, and show that the head office is truly behind their efforts at compliance.

That was well over a year ago. No cruise line is innocent - they have all been busted and all knew better.

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

That was well over a year ago. No cruise line is innocent - they have all been busted and all knew better.

Yes, they have, and they have all turned themselves around because of being "busted".  Carnival is the outlier in being found time and time again ranging over decades, many times being found having done the same thing repeatedly.  I will wait on the next annual auditor's report, but fully expect there to be many violations across the fleet, and a continued condemnation of the corporate culture.

[florida eagle]

9 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

That was well over a year ago. No cruise line is innocent - they have all been busted and all knew better.

To let the companies do it themselves is fine. if government need to gently push them that is fine.  Giving the government control will up the costs of cruising big time and only add a few per cent more of improvement over what the cruise line will do on its own. 

[chengkp75]

22 minutes ago, florida eagle said:

To let the companies do it themselves is fine. if government need to gently push them that is fine.  Giving the government control will up the costs of cruising big time and only add a few per cent more of improvement over what the cruise line will do on its own. 

Government has always had control.  In fact, the courts have been exceedingly lenient with Carnival given the number of violations that were found to have occurred during their probation.  Any one of the hundreds of violations could have led to fines well in excess of the $20 million that they were subsequently fined.  And, NCL was fined and placed under probation, turned it's entire corporate culture around, fully embraced environmental compliance, took measures beyond that which were required, and the cost of their cruises are no different than the other lines.