Dogs on the ship

[cruisinchrissy]

26 minutes ago, CCWineLover said:

I really don't think people want to "avoid ‘official’ service dogs on any cruise".  They do have the right to travel.  We've experienced several "real" service dogs and they have been well trained and quite commendable in their duties.

 

You missed the issue here - it is the emotional support animals that are being brought aboard and "passing" as Service Animals (likely with false documents of certification as a service animal, which is quite easy to get, especially in Florida).  And then the dog owner's faults for letting their dogs operate as if they are home (see all the posts in this thread) without heed to any rules of conduct.  And then the Viking Ship's failures to police these bad behaviors.

So really it starts first with Viking - putting a definitive policy out on behaviors not allowed and punishments/penalties that will be enacted.  No bluffing.  And having passengers attest to it.  And then Viking educating the staff to have the courage to enforce those penalties.

This is because you won't change passenger behavior.  People will get away with whatever they can IMHO.

Viking is now saying, perhaps after seeing the huge volume of complaints, that  they will change and enforce the policies along with educating staff.  We shall see if they actually do, if and when we ever hear of a penalty being enforced.

I was really replying to the poster who has cancelled the cruise in case they find dogs on board.

You are absolutely right that bad owners bringing pets on board should be stopped. That’s why I said ‘proper service dogs’.

[TayanaLorna]

This has been a very educational thread for all of us and hopefully for Viking.  Passengers must tolerate true service dogs on board as the rights of the disabled have priority over those who have allergies, fear of or just don't like dogs.  I truly hope that Viking closely screens service dog requests, establishes a code of conduct for dog behavior as well as penalties for owners violations and that the staff on board monitors the situation.  Then it is up to us to decide if we wish to sail Viking on the off chance that there may be a service dog on board.  Those who are allergic to dogs or afraid of them have a tougher choice then I do.

[KBs mum]

Since this thread started I've been looking out for service/assistance dogs when in towns, shopping etc. Haven't seen any, other than trainee dogs from the two national charities in the area. Have also never seen a dog on a Viking ship. They exist but it is unusual to encounter one 

Makes you wonder how many there are among the cruise booking contingent. If Viking had a strict policy to only allow service animals then it would be unusual to see one on board, purely as they are a relative rarity

[photopro2]

3 hours ago, CCWineLover said:

So really it starts first with Viking - putting a definitive policy out on behaviors not allowed and punishments/penalties that will be enacted.  No bluffing.  And having passengers attest to it.  And then Viking educating the staff to have the courage to enforce those penalties.

My sentiments exactly.

Fraudulently bringing a pet on board in the guise of a service animal is undoubtedly despicable. However, in practice, that really wouldn't matter at all to me provided the owner was required to stay with the animal at all times, and to control its behaviour in the same way that a genuine service animal user would naturally do.

As you will have gathered from my previous posts, my real gripe with Viking is that they claim to have a policy about animal behaviour on the ships but for some reason are reluctant to publish it. I have requested a copy of the policy from customer services in the UK and will post the result once they have replied. Watch this space 🙂

[CDNPolar]

This is what is currently on the Viking web site.

 

[Vineyard View]

12 hours ago, CCWineLover said:

I really don't think people want to "avoid ‘official’ service dogs on any cruise".  They do have the right to travel.  We've experienced several "real" service dogs and they have been well trained and quite commendable in their duties.

 

You missed the issue here - it is the emotional support animals that are being brought aboard and "passing" as Service Animals (likely with false documents of certification as a service animal, which is quite easy to get, especially in Florida).  And then the dog owner's faults for letting their dogs operate as if they are home (see all the posts in this thread) without heed to any rules of conduct.  And then the Viking Ship's failures to police these bad behaviors.

So really it starts first with Viking - putting a definitive policy out on behaviors not allowed and punishments/penalties that will be enacted.  No bluffing.  And having passengers attest to it.  And then Viking educating the staff to have the courage to enforce those penalties.

This is because you won't change passenger behavior.  People will get away with whatever they can IMHO.

Viking is now saying, perhaps after seeing the huge volume of complaints, that  they will change and enforce the policies along with educating staff.  We shall see if they actually do, if and when we ever hear of a penalty being enforced.

THIS. 
 

Perfect. 

[florafun]

I received a call from a Viking Customer Relations representative re: the 4 dogs onboard our Star cruise. He reassured me that this will never happen again as they have now changed their policy. According to the representative there will never be more than 2 dogs onboard and these dogs must be true service animals that have had their appropriate documentation approved by Viking. Emotional support animals will NOT be allowed. I am impressed that Viking listens to their customers, is willing to institute rule changes and personally reaches out to customers who have written or called in.

[donaldsc]

On 4/6/2023 at 10:24 AM, TayanaLorna said:

This has been a very educational thread for all of us and hopefully for Viking.  Passengers must tolerate true service dogs on board as the rights of the disabled have priority over those who have allergies, fear of or just don't like dogs.  I truly hope that Viking closely screens service dog requests, establishes a code of conduct for dog behavior as well as penalties for owners violations and that the staff on board monitors the situation.  Then it is up to us to decide if we wish to sail Viking on the off chance that there may be a service dog on board.  Those who are allergic to dogs or afraid of them have a tougher choice then I do.

 

That is where I have a problem.  The issues (allergies or a legitimate very real fear) that people do have of dogs are as serious as the people w disabilities.  The problem is that there is not an obvious solution to the problem.

 

DON

[TiiiSailor]

20 minutes ago, donaldsc said:

 

That is where I have a problem.  The issues (allergies or a legitimate very real fear) that people do have of dogs are as serious as the people w disabilities.  The problem is that there is not an obvious solution to the problem.

 

DON

Don,

Do you realize that if a pet, regardless of classification, is allowed onboard a plane and you complain about it's presence due to an allergy or fear, you're the one removed from the plane due to being a medical risk onboard.

[donaldsc]

Just now, TiiiSailor said:

Don,

Do you realize that if a pet, regardless of classification, is allowed onboard a plane and you complain about it's presence due to an allergy or fear, you're the one removed from the plane due to being a medical risk onboard.

 

I do and I am even more indignant about that.  Do not get me started on the issue of pets.

 

DON 

[millybess]

22 minutes ago, donaldsc said:

 

(……..legitimate very real fear) that people do have of dogs are as serious as the people w disabilities. 

 

DON

That’s much more difficult to prove than a disabled person who needs a guide dog. To me it’s similar to “emotional support”.

[Vineyard View]

6 hours ago, florafun said:

I received a call from a Viking Customer Relations representative re: the 4 dogs onboard our Star cruise. He reassured me that this will never happen again as they have now changed their policy. According to the representative there will never be more than 2 dogs onboard and these dogs must be true service animals that have had their appropriate documentation approved by Viking. Emotional support animals will NOT be allowed. I am impressed that Viking listens to their customers, is willing to institute rule changes and personally reaches out to customers who have written or called in.

I am encouraged by their follow up. I agree that it is quite unique and impressive.
But  - I was told no more than one dog per sailing. You are told no more than two. If there are three truly disabled people sailing on a cruise who require service dogs….then how does that roll out?  These kind of statements are what make me shake my head. 

[Pushka]

9 hours ago, donaldsc said:

 

That is where I have a problem.  The issues (allergies or a legitimate very real fear) that people do have of dogs are as serious as the people w disabilities.  The problem is that there is not an obvious solution to the problem.

 

DON

Yes that was my thought too. Asthma attacks caused only by contact with animals is a disability in itself. And potentially more dangerous. And caused by someone else's actions. It's a minefield. The "very real fear" - well, I'm less convinced by that concern.   Thank goodness only true service dogs are allowed to fly on planes throughout Australia. These are usually guide dogs. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Pushka

[chatdad]

On 3/28/2023 at 4:53 PM, Frenchberet said:

Neither of the dogs pictured above are wearing a vest identifying them as an “emotional support” animal (not that it really matters, you can buy the vests on Amazon for less than $20).  So, they’re pets.  If I was separated from my pet and paid to have him in a kennel, I’d be really annoyed to see another person’s pet on the cruise.  Sitting in chairs and barking?  Dining in restaurants and sleeping in staterooms?  No way.  Viking, please stop.  

The dog with the gentleman  coming down the stairs had a 'service dog' collar on.  Not saying ti was or wasn't a service dog as I'm no expert and don't really need to debate that one way or the other.  Just noting there was some 'identification' on the dog.  

[chatdad]

Was also on that recent Star cruise and personally had no issue with the dogs on board.  I recognize  many have posted some very legitimate concerns and it also appears from some of the comments here Viking has listened and is addressing.  As to our cruise, outside of one incident, the dogs were well behaved and under the control of the owners.  The one incident involved a couple who were obviously afraid of dogs (we were standing in line to enter the theatre for the Captains farewell toast) where the dog was jumping on some other nearby guests who wanted to pat and play with him (owner should have removed the  dog from the area once he noticed the discomfort of the couple).  On the other hand, one of the other owners asked us before entering our elevator is we were ok with the dog joining us for the ride.  We heard no barking, didn't see the dogs jumping on or off the furniture.  Did see one dog in the lap of the owner one time.  But overall it was nice to have them on board and I'd say they acted as well or if not better than a one or two of the quests we saw.  

[CDNPolar]

We emailed Viking and got a phone call response.

 

Viking stated that they have and are revisiting their policy on this.  They specifically stated that emotional support dogs are NOT allowed.

 

We have no issue with a certified service dog on the ship WITH restrictions.

 

The dog should NOT be on chairs or lounges that we sit on.  The dog should NOT be on someones lap.  If the dog is in the dining room, it is on the floor beside their person and is NOT being fed from the table.

 

I have a lifelong friend that is blind and has a seeing eye dog.  When this dog comes to visit with my friend, the dog is at his feet always.  Never on furniture.  This dog is never fed from the table and never begs.  Seeing eye dogs are painstakingly trained to be there for their person and in my experience never are an issue except when we don't recognize that they are "working" dogs and we should not call to them, try to pet them, or in anyway interfere with them.

 

I also get that people have allergies and some have fear of dogs.  BUT, for a blind person this is their lifeline.  They are as entitled to travel as we are regardless of allergy or fears from other people.

Edited April 8, 2023 by CDNPolar

[Goosebear Mum]

I have not wanted to comment, up until now, but please remember service dogs are not ‘just’ guide dogs, nor are they all Labrador/spaniel breeds.  There are hearing dogs for the deaf, dogs for the disabled. Dogs trained to detect a fit is about to occur, etc, etc.

 

In the UK more of these dogs are now ‘hypoallergenic’ cross breeds, usually with poodle in the breeding.  So small dogs can be service dogs
 

Dogs for the deaf are highly trained to alert their owners to sounds such as door bells, phones, fire alarms, etc.  

Dogs for the disabled are trained for all sorts of activities, including loading and unloading the washing machine/dryer!!! 

Dogs can even be trained to recognise upcoming diabetic attacks, epileptic fits, blood pressure and heart issues, etc, etc. Absolutely essential to their ‘owner’.  How would you know if someone on board with a small poodle cross actually has the dog so as to detect one of these issues, so the person can go with their travel companion to the safety of their cabin/take medication, etc? 
 

I agree, dogs should not be allowed if they are ‘just emotional dogs’ but don’t tar even all of these as unnecessary, some of these have been trained to support severe PTSD and autism, allowing people to lead relatively ‘normal’ lives, Some of these people have seen true military and other horrors. Sadly there seemed to be an American craze of having pets as supposed emotional support animals, which were totally unnecessary and makes everyone now assume all these dogs are just pets
 

Normally, I agree, all the above dogs have official recognisable collars, harnesses, etc, but not always. Sometimes people would rather others not know ‘what is wrong with them’ all the time.
 

Viking have rightly listened and sound as though they will make changes.  Maybe there were a high number on this cruise, as a support network of people decided to travel together? I agree having a couple of cabins set aside as suitable for dogs would be helpful, just as disabled cabins are available. Dogs on board should not interact with any other passenger, nor should they ever be on furniture/fed food at tables/etc.  But please don’t assume service dogs, just because the breed doesn’t conform to your opinion, is actually ‘just a pet’

 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Goosebear Mum

[KBs mum]

1 hour ago, Goosebear Mum said:

I have not wanted to comment, up until now, but please remember service dogs are not ‘just’ guide dogs, nor are they all Labrador/spaniel breeds.  There are hearing dogs for the deaf, dogs for the disabled. Dogs trained to detect a fit is about to occur, etc, etc.

 

In the UK more of these dogs are now ‘hypoallergenic’ cross breeds, usually with poodle in the breeding.  So small dogs can be service dogs
 

Dogs for the deaf are highly trained to alert their owners to sounds such as door bells, phones, fire alarms, etc.  

Dogs for the disabled are trained for all sorts of activities, including loading and unloading the washing machine/dryer!!! 

Dogs can even be trained to recognise upcoming diabetic attacks, epileptic fits, blood pressure and heart issues, etc, etc. Absolutely essential to their ‘owner’.  How would you know if someone on board with a small poodle cross actually has the dog so as to detect one of these issues, so the person can go with their travel companion to the safety of their cabin/take medication, etc? 
 

I agree, dogs should not be allowed if they are ‘just emotional dogs’ but don’t tar even all of these as unnecessary, some of these have been trained to support severe PTSD and autism, allowing people to lead relatively ‘normal’ lives, Some of these people have seen true military and other horrors. Sadly there seemed to be an American craze of having pets as supposed emotional support animals, which were totally unnecessary and makes everyone now assume all these dogs are just pets
 

Normally, I agree, all the above dogs have official recognisable collars, harnesses, etc, but not always. Sometimes people would rather others not know ‘what is wrong with them’ all the time.
 

Viking have rightly listened and sound as though they will make changes.  Maybe there were a high number on this cruise, as a support network of people decided to travel together? I agree having a couple of cabins set aside as suitable for dogs would be helpful, just as disabled cabins are available. Dogs on board should not interact with any other passenger, nor should they ever be on furniture/fed food at tables/etc.  But please don’t assume service dogs, just because the breed doesn’t conform to your opinion, is actually ‘just a pet’

 

 

As far as I can tell nobody commenting on this thread would disagree with you. We aren't talking about the dogs you describe, the problem is badly trained dogs allowed onboard as emotional support.

The dogs trained to support people who have autism or PTSD often have actions that they carry out to help their person, example, leaning on the person's legs, blocking other people from getting too close or pushing their head against the person's hand. This puts them firmly in the service dog category not emotional support (allthough they do that as part of their job) 

Thing is that service dogs are trained professionals, they are on duty ready to assist, not a passive presence. We see a lot of trainee dogs around here, their demeanor sets them apart from the pet dogs. Even at 6 months old their behavior is exemplary, certainly they don't behave in the ways described by those on Star. The report of a dog jumping up at people and getting fusses in the theatre queue shows the dog in question was not an on duty service dog. 

UK therapy dogs have all the same basic (by service dog standards) training as a service dog, but not the advanced training. A lot are service animal trained dogs that didn't pass their final exams (I've met quite a few during various hospital stays). I've also met service dogs that changed careers after not passing their guide dog (seeing eye) tests. 

I have said that some breeds are unlikely to be a service dog, purely because service dogs are usually from the gundog, working and utility groups. Size doesn't matter, a labrador/poodle cross can be small or large. 

Toy group breeds are unusual as service animals, (as are pastoral group breeds, because of their exercise requirements) they are, however seemingly quite common as emotional support dogs. I mentioned 'yappy trip hazards'. If a toy group dog is a trained service animal it will be neither. Pet ones, unfortunately, often are. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by KBs mum

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, Goosebear Mum said:

I have not wanted to comment, up until now, but please remember service dogs are not ‘just’ guide dogs, nor are they all Labrador/spaniel breeds.  There are hearing dogs for the deaf, dogs for the disabled. Dogs trained to detect a fit is about to occur, etc, etc.

 

In the UK more of these dogs are now ‘hypoallergenic’ cross breeds, usually with poodle in the breeding.  So small dogs can be service dogs
 

Dogs for the deaf are highly trained to alert their owners to sounds such as door bells, phones, fire alarms, etc.  

Dogs for the disabled are trained for all sorts of activities, including loading and unloading the washing machine/dryer!!! 

Dogs can even be trained to recognise upcoming diabetic attacks, epileptic fits, blood pressure and heart issues, etc, etc. Absolutely essential to their ‘owner’.  How would you know if someone on board with a small poodle cross actually has the dog so as to detect one of these issues, so the person can go with their travel companion to the safety of their cabin/take medication, etc? 
 

I agree, dogs should not be allowed if they are ‘just emotional dogs’ but don’t tar even all of these as unnecessary, some of these have been trained to support severe PTSD and autism, allowing people to lead relatively ‘normal’ lives, Some of these people have seen true military and other horrors. Sadly there seemed to be an American craze of having pets as supposed emotional support animals, which were totally unnecessary and makes everyone now assume all these dogs are just pets
 

Normally, I agree, all the above dogs have official recognisable collars, harnesses, etc, but not always. Sometimes people would rather others not know ‘what is wrong with them’ all the time.
 

Viking have rightly listened and sound as though they will make changes.  Maybe there were a high number on this cruise, as a support network of people decided to travel together? I agree having a couple of cabins set aside as suitable for dogs would be helpful, just as disabled cabins are available. Dogs on board should not interact with any other passenger, nor should they ever be on furniture/fed food at tables/etc.  But please don’t assume service dogs, just because the breed doesn’t conform to your opinion, is actually ‘just a pet’

 

 

I concur with the points you raised, and I expect most of the other posters on this thread have no issues with a limited number of genuine service dogs.

 

When operating within the scope of the U.S.  A.D.A , the problem is a business cannot request proof that an alleged service dog is genuine, and is adequately trained and certified. No professional training is required.

 

Based on the reports and photos posted from actual pax on the cruise, I'll suggest we cannot make a definitive determination whether the dogs were genuine service dogs, but I'll suggest some of the reported conduct lends me to believe at least some of the dogs were not adequately trained. Examples of inadequate training are:

  - Pax queued outside the Star Theatre and a dog was jumping at pax who attempted to pet/play with the dog. This indicates neither the dog nor the owner is adequately trained, as the owner should have advised the pax that the dog is working and please not touch and/or interact with the dog. If the pax persisted, the dog owner should have removed themselves to protect the working dog. The dog, even when approached should not jump. This dog may provide a service to the owner, but from a training perspective, has less training than our German Shepherd & Lab

  - Dog being fed human food from the table is again indicative that both the dog and owner are not sufficiently trained. A genuine and well trained service dog will sit on the deck, observing the owner and will not eat table scraps.

 - Photo of dog on Aquavit Terrace sitting on a chair. From the photo, I noted that the owner is not attached to the leash, so the dog was both unleashed and sitting on a chair. Again indicative that both the dog and owner are not adequately trained.

  - Report of dog loose at a lounger while owner was in the pool. If the owner requires a service dog, why was said dog loose and if I remember correctly, wasn't provided any water. 

 

Even if these dogs were capable of providing a "Service", my issue is the owners and dogs were inadequately trained to be brought on a cruise.

[Camden lady]

6 hours ago, Goosebear Mum said:

I have not wanted to comment, up until now, but please remember service dogs are not ‘just’ guide dogs, nor are they all Labrador/spaniel breeds.  There are hearing dogs for the deaf, dogs for the disabled. Dogs trained to detect a fit is about to occur, etc, etc.

 

In the UK more of these dogs are now ‘hypoallergenic’ cross breeds, usually with poodle in the breeding.  So small dogs can be service dogs
 

Dogs for the deaf are highly trained to alert their owners to sounds such as door bells, phones, fire alarms, etc.  

Dogs for the disabled are trained for all sorts of activities, including loading and unloading the washing machine/dryer!!! 

Dogs can even be trained to recognise upcoming diabetic attacks, epileptic fits, blood pressure and heart issues, etc, etc. Absolutely essential to their ‘owner’.  How would you know if someone on board with a small poodle cross actually has the dog so as to detect one of these issues, so the person can go with their travel companion to the safety of their cabin/take medication, etc? 
 

I agree, dogs should not be allowed if they are ‘just emotional dogs’ but don’t tar even all of these as unnecessary, some of these have been trained to support severe PTSD and autism, allowing people to lead relatively ‘normal’ lives, Some of these people have seen true military and other horrors. Sadly there seemed to be an American craze of having pets as supposed emotional support animals, which were totally unnecessary and makes everyone now assume all these dogs are just pets
 

Normally, I agree, all the above dogs have official recognisable collars, harnesses, etc, but not always. Sometimes people would rather others not know ‘what is wrong with them’ all the time.
 

Viking have rightly listened and sound as though they will make changes.  Maybe there were a high number on this cruise, as a support network of people decided to travel together? I agree having a couple of cabins set aside as suitable for dogs would be helpful, just as disabled cabins are available. Dogs on board should not interact with any other passenger, nor should they ever be on furniture/fed food at tables/etc.  But please don’t assume service dogs, just because the breed doesn’t conform to your opinion, is actually ‘just a pet’

 

 

I have a problem with your word usage in this post.   Please do not call an epileptic seizure a "fit".  My son has epilepsy and he does not have "fits" but he does have seizures.  For someone so passionate about people with disabilities, that term is an insult to all epileptics.

[Heidi13]

7 minutes ago, Camden lady said:

I have a problem with your word usage in this post.   Please do not call an epileptic seizure a "fit".  My son has epilepsy and he does not have "fits" but he does have seizures.  For someone so passionate about people with disabilities, that term is an insult to all epileptics.

 

The poster is from UK, where the term "Fit", is still acceptable and widely used. It may not be acceptable in the U.S. but that doesn't mean it isn't acceptable in other countries. 

[donaldsc]

I agree with those who said that service dogs can be of breeds that one would not expect to be service dogs.  Just wondering however how may of the chihuahuas that you see people pushing in baby carriages are service chihuahuas.  Not too many I would bet.

 

DON

[Goosebear Mum]

6 hours ago, Camden lady said:

I have a problem with your word usage in this post.   Please do not call an epileptic seizure a "fit".  My son has epilepsy and he does not have "fits" but he does have seizures. 

 

6 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

The poster is from UK, where the term "Fit", is still acceptable and widely used. It may not be acceptable in the U.S. but that doesn't mean it isn't acceptable in other countries. 

Thanks Heidi13.
 

Yes Camden Lady, I am in the UK,  UK NHS site  https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/epilepsy/. uncontrollable jerking and shaking, called a "fit" 

 

Do you ever say ‘handicap/handicapped or fanny pack/bag? Those are just a couple of US terms, those in the UK think are crude/derogatory/rude, etc.  But I never criticise someone on a forum for using them, as it’s everyday speak for some US. 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Goosebear Mum

[Goosebear Mum]

5 hours ago, donaldsc said:

I agree with those who said that service dogs can be of breeds that one would not expect to be service dogs.  Just wondering however how may of the chihuahuas that you see people pushing in baby carriages are service chihuahuas.  Not too many I would bet.

 

DON

Not sure if it ever made it across to the US, but this brings back amusing memories of the James Herriot books/films and ‘Tricky Woo’, a Pekingese!  🤣. Now that would have been a character expecting her Tricky Woo to be a service animal on a cruise ship!!!

 

 

[KBs mum]

1 hour ago, Goosebear Mum said:

Not sure if it ever made it across to the US, but this brings back amusing memories of the James Herriot books/films and ‘Tricky Woo’, a Pekingese!  🤣. Now that would have been a character expecting her Tricky Woo to be a service animal on a cruise ship!!!

 

 

Got to disagree with you, Triki Woo would have expected the owners suite, Mrs Pumphrey would have brought the butler to be his service human😁

 

Allthough, Triki wouldn't have sat directly on the furniture, he had his own cushion so as to be comfortable😀