RUMOUR - New addition to P&O Australia fleet

[Royalty X]

My parents came off Pacific Explorer last Friday and they noted how poor the standard of guest accommodations are (they sailed on her as Dawn Princess and claimed the carpets were the same, looking very worn, stained, uncomfortable bedding, etc). According to their stateroom attendant, Explorer will leave the P&O fleet next year and be replaced by Grand Princess.

 

It’s hardly an official statement, but usually when these rumours are doing the rounds, they’re normally true.

[OzKiwiJJ]

Grand Princess is currently scheduled to move to the US then cruise on the west coast until April 2025. Of course that could change...

[Ondine]

There was unofficial talk in 2019 of the Grand joining P&O. 

 

I agree (after sailing on Pacific Explorer in January) that she is in a terrible state.  When we were berthed opposite her in March she looked like she belonged to some third world shipping company.  There were broken windows in the Pantry and Bars which were broken in January and still covered with tape and plastic 2 months later.  As for rust and dents and gouges in the body work - do they not have any paint onboard?  I put it down to shortage of staff to keep up the maintenance.  She is meant to be the flagship of P&O.

 

I have been wondering if this why the Princess Melbourne season for 2024/25 has been shortened from 5 months to 2 months with Diamond coming here instead of Grand and then being sent to Brisbane after mid December. 

 

Sun Princess is due to debut in early 2024 and I wonder if there will be some shuffling around of ships once she is sailing.  Is there another ship in the works after Sun?  Correct me if Sun Princess is the wrong name.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Ondine

[OzKiwiJJ]

I don't think the Melbourne season issue has anything to do with any particular cruise line. From what I saw of the port schedule a while back most of the port bookings were the luxury cruise lines who don't use Melbourne as an embarkation port - in other words probably day visit ships only. I wish the Port of Melbourne would actually come out and say what is happening as the cruise lines are getting blamed for not offering cruises from there. 

 

We went on Dawn Princess in 2015 and she wasn't in great shape then although I believe she did get refurbished when she became Pacific Explorer. Although P&O Australia is part of Carnival Corp the line is expected to operate on it's own. Being such a small cruise line and with cruising restarting here much later than overseas I imagine P&O is very stretched for cash right now so some maintenance may be being deferred.

[dazadelaide]

No broken windows in the pantry or bars when we sailed on her in March.

Can't comment on whether carpets are the same as we never cruised on her as Dawn Princess but in our cabin the carpet wasn't worn or stained and the bed was very comfortable.

The hull certainly needs some attention that's for sure.

When I saw a youtube video about her and saw the state of the hull all rusty and gouged before we sailed I thought what have we let ourselves in for.

I was dreading what the interior would be like if they can't keep the outside of the ship in good order.

So when we embarked a few months later it was with a great deal of trepidation but to our surprise our fears were put to rest as the interior of the ship was much better than we were expecting.

Yes she is an older ship but that doesn't mean P&O should neglect the exterior.

Daz

 

[Aussieflyer]

We didn't like her when we sailed on her as Dawn Princess back some years ago. She seemed very old then (I can still remember a pervasive sewerage smell in some areas). She put us off sailing Princess (although I have returned when a cruise appeals but MrAF is not interested). 

[arxcards]

7 hours ago, Royalty X said:

My parents came off Pacific Explorer last Friday and they noted how poor the standard of guest accommodations are (they sailed on her as Dawn Princess and claimed the carpets were the same, looking very worn, stained, uncomfortable bedding, etc). According to their stateroom attendant, Explorer will leave the P&O fleet next year and be replaced by Grand Princess.

 

It’s hardly an official statement, but usually when these rumours are doing the rounds, they’re normally true.

Always a possibility, and the oldest Princess ship going to P&O is always plausible . However, these rumours are false much more often than they are true, especially coming out of P&O. Apart from a spruce-up, the ships already look old and tired before P&O get them.

 

We have cruised on her as Dawn Princess and as Pacific Explorer. Yes, the cabin furniture is nearly identical, but I didn't spot any Princess carpet.

[arxcards]

6 hours ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

Being such a small cruise line and with cruising restarting here much later than overseas I imagine P&O is very stretched for cash right now so some maintenance may be being deferred.

P&O Australia is branding. Cash comes from a bigger Carnival Corp pot. Her last drydock was just prior to the shutdown, so she has done only one year of active cruising.

 

The whole point of maintenance drydocking is to do compliance inspections and repairs, as well as getting a nice new slippery hull that pays for itself through fuel economy. The compliance stuff can't be deferred, it is imposed.

 

There is a big gap in Explorer's itineraries during Feb 2025. If she is still around, I believe that is when it will be.

[ceeceeDee]

Pacific Explorer was launched in 1997 and Grand Princess in 1998, so they are both 'getting on a bit'. One wonders at the 'wisdom' of replacing Explorer with Grand when there is only a year's difference in age. Then again rumour mills are just that - rumours.

[OzKiwiJJ]

11 hours ago, arxcards said:

P&O Australia is branding. Cash comes from a bigger Carnival Corp pot. Her last drydock was just prior to the shutdown, so she has done only one year of active cruising.

 

 

I'm fairly certain each of the Carnival Corp brands operates as a separate business under the corporation umbrella. The corporation probably provides security in times like the recent pandemic, and of course is listed at corporation level on the stock exchange, but P&O still has to balance its budget and operate within its means - so things like non-essential maintenance may get deferred until the company accounts are a bit healthier. 

[arxcards]

9 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

I'm fairly certain each of the Carnival Corp brands operates as a separate business under the corporation umbrella. The corporation probably provides security in times like the recent pandemic, and of course is listed at corporation level on the stock exchange, but P&O still has to balance its budget and operate within its means - so things like non-essential maintenance may get deferred until the company accounts are a bit healthier. 

For the ships, that is incorrect. P&O Australia is just branding. Carnival Australia needs to justify costs for the marketing and operation of their $AU "fleet" which also includes Carnival and Princess. If they are not profitably filling cruise ships, Carnival Corp simply wont send ships down here for Carnival Australia to operate.

 

P&O Australia does not have shareholders. P&O Australia does not own or even lease Pacific Explorer. Each ship has individual ownership, usually made up of the corporate body and the financiers that bankrolled the construction. They are literally floating hotels, individually owned and group managed like a hotel chain. Profit aside, they have sufficient operating cashflow to maintain their ships. 

 

Yes, they can choose not to replace carpet as non-essential, but that is small budget stuff anyway. The big costs are below the waterline, and that is essential maintenance imposed by the industry. Then if the ship appears old, passengers will book something else - they can't afford not to do the non-essential stuff either.

[cheznandy]

12 hours ago, arxcards said:

There is a big gap in Explorer's itineraries during Feb 2025. If she is still around, I believe that is when it will be.

Pacific Explorer Fremantle to Singapore 7th Feb 2025 11 nights, Singapore to Freemantle 12 nights 2nd March 2025.

Nice itineraries if they happen, Phuket, Langkawi, Kuala Lumpur, Lombok, around $1000 insides. 

[ceeceeDee]

I agree about balancing the budget, Julie. Cruise lines took a massive hit during the covid ban on cruising. It will take them a while to trade out of the red. Could be the reason for P&O charging for some items in the MDR and a cover charge for one of their shows. To be honest, I don't have a problem with either. I don't HAVE to have a steak and I don't HAVE to go to the Black Circus. There is still plenty of included entertainment and food if I don't want to part with the extra $$ (and no, I'm not independently wealthy😁).

[MMDown Under]

26 minutes ago, ceeceeDee said:

I agree about balancing the budget, Julie. Cruise lines took a massive hit during the covid ban on cruising. It will take them a while to trade out of the red. Could be the reason for P&O charging for some items in the MDR and a cover charge for one of their shows. To be honest, I don't have a problem with either. I don't HAVE to have a steak and I don't HAVE to go to the Black Circus. There is still plenty of included entertainment and food if I don't want to part with the extra $$ (and no, I'm not independently wealthy😁).

I think it is the principle that cruising is an all inclusive food, accommodation and entertainment package. You can take your children on a cruise with the knowledge they can enjoy anything they want.  

[reeves35]

4 hours ago, ceeceeDee said:

Pacific Explorer was launched in 1997 and Grand Princess in 1998, so they are both 'getting on a bit'. One wonders at the 'wisdom' of replacing Explorer with Grand when there is only a year's difference in age. Then again rumour mills are just that - rumours.

You are correct.  Given its age, it is not particularly surprising that Pacific Explorer will be retired from the P&O fleet in the next 3 to 4 year but it would make no sense to replace it with a ship that is only one year younger.  Realistically, with the inexorable growth in the size of their ships, you would expect that Princess will look to jettison Coral Princess or Island Princess in the next few years and these would make a more logical replacement for Pacific Explorer. 

[reeves35]

4 hours ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

I'm fairly certain each of the Carnival Corp brands operates as a separate business under the corporation umbrella. The corporation probably provides security in times like the recent pandemic, and of course is listed at corporation level on the stock exchange, but P&O still has to balance its budget and operate within its means - so things like non-essential maintenance may get deferred until the company accounts are a bit healthier. 

Carnival Australia is interesting in that both brands operate under the corporate body Carnival Australia Pty Ltd.  In operations the structure splits with Jan Swartz,  (Head of Holland America Group) being responsible for P&O Australia  as well as HAL, Princess and Seabourn.  Marguerite Fitzgerald reports to Swartz and oversees the Australian shared services for Princess, Carnival and P&O.

 

Operationally, the 2 Carnival Australia ships are not managed by Swartz however with them being managed under the control of Christine Duffy, the global head of Carnival Cruises.

 

[ceeceeDee]

Totally agree

[OzKiwiJJ]

3 hours ago, MMDown Under said:

I think it is the principle that cruising is an all inclusive food, accommodation and entertainment package. You can take your children on a cruise with the knowledge they can enjoy anything they want.  

Agreed. I find it annoying seeing those extra cost items on the menu especially after enough time on the ship to realize they have cut back on some of the "luxury" dishes that usually appeared on formal nights. Princess was still doing a very nice Chateaubriand in March though but no lobster. 

[NSWP]

5 hours ago, ceeceeDee said:

I agree about balancing the budget, Julie. Cruise lines took a massive hit during the covid ban on cruising. It will take them a while to trade out of the red. Could be the reason for P&O charging for some items in the MDR and a cover charge for one of their shows. To be honest, I don't have a problem with either. I don't HAVE to have a steak and I don't HAVE to go to the Black Circus. There is still plenty of included entertainment and food if I don't want to part with the extra $$ (and no, I'm not independently wealthy😁).

Steak is available in MDR, why pay extra $$$$$ for the cover charge restaurants. I have tried them all over the years.

Edited May 10, 2023 by NSWP

[arxcards]

5 hours ago, ceeceeDee said:

I agree about balancing the budget, Julie. Cruise lines took a massive hit during the covid ban on cruising. It will take them a while to trade out of the red. Could be the reason for P&O charging for some items in the MDR and a cover charge for one of their shows. To be honest, I don't have a problem with either. I don't HAVE to have a steak and I don't HAVE to go to the Black Circus. There is still plenty of included entertainment and food if I don't want to part with the extra $$ (and no, I'm not independently wealthy😁).

Paid shows in Black Circus were around before the pandemic, when Love Riot began in 2017. Purple Rabbit and Blanc de Blanc have continued on. It is all small change in the grand scheme of things, and more than 1/2 of the $20 odd dollars to see Hans the Entertainer in Black Circus last June went to Matt Gilbertson himself. We don't have FOMO, and hardly bother with most of the free shows either. If they cut those free shows, then that would be economising. Paid MDR steaks/Surf & Turf have been around on other cruise lines for more than 10 years, and everyone else has caught on, including Princess. All optional, so not big money spinners.

 

If they just added $1 per alcoholic drink, that would do more for revenue than either of those other options.

[OzKiwiJJ]

1 hour ago, arxcards said:

 

If they just added $1 per alcoholic drink, that would do more for revenue than either of those other options.

Princess have already done that! In some cases to the point where the per glass price of at least one wine is ten times the retail bottle price! 🤬

[cruisingrob21]

15 hours ago, reeves35 said:

You are correct.  Given its age, it is not particularly surprising that Pacific Explorer will be retired from the P&O fleet in the next 3 to 4 year but it would make no sense to replace it with a ship that is only one year younger.  Realistically, with the inexorable growth in the size of their ships, you would expect that Princess will look to jettison Coral Princess or Island Princess in the next few years and these would make a more logical replacement for Pacific Explorer. 

Or would it?  To replace the Explorer with the Grand they can essentially do a swap and add 400 more passengers.  The Grand had a major drydock in 2012 or so to remove Skywalkers lounge and I believe she also had a few engines replaced a few years later.  From a CCL perspective, regardless of her age, her continued investments have made her some what of a "ship of theseus" paradox.  She is a far cry from what she initially was, and princess/CCL probably have more cost to recoup on her given that she was the lead ship of a class and likely had a higher initial cost than her similar (Golden and Star Princess) and not so similar sister ships (Caribbean, Diamond, Emerald, Crown, Emerald, Ruby).  On paper, she likely has a longer ROI period of performance.

[arxcards]

20 hours ago, cheznandy said:

Pacific Explorer Fremantle to Singapore 7th Feb 2025 11 nights, Singapore to Freemantle 12 nights 2nd March 2025.

Nice itineraries if they happen, Phuket, Langkawi, Kuala Lumpur, Lombok, around $1000 insides. 

Hi Chez,

Interesting those itineraries are showing on T/A sites, but don't show on P&O. Before that confirms any rumour though, the following cruises ex-Freo are showing on P&O. Weird!!

 

Pricing is good, but 2 expensive flights for us. If returning to Sydney or Brisbane, it would be a bit more do-able for us.

[reeves35]

1 hour ago, cruisingrob21 said:

Or would it?  To replace the Explorer with the Grand they can essentially do a swap and add 400 more passengers.  The Grand had a major drydock in 2012 or so to remove Skywalkers lounge and I believe she also had a few engines replaced a few years later.  From a CCL perspective, regardless of her age, her continued investments have made her some what of a "ship of theseus" paradox.  She is a far cry from what she initially was, and princess/CCL probably have more cost to recoup on her given that she was the lead ship of a class and likely had a higher initial cost than her similar (Golden and Star Princess) and not so similar sister ships (Caribbean, Diamond, Emerald, Crown, Emerald, Ruby).  On paper, she likely has a longer ROI period of performance.

It is likely both the Grand Princess and Pacific Explorer have very low book values in the Carnival accounts.

 

Carnival Corp has a policy of depreciating ships over 30 years with a 15% residual and any improvements are depreciated at a variable rate depending on the age of the ship so an older ship has its modifications amortised much faster than a new ship. In addition, Carnival did review the value of their fleet during the pandemic and further wrote down ships whose value was judged to be less than book value. 

 

[arxcards]

1 hour ago, reeves35 said:

It is likely both the Grand Princess and Pacific Explorer have very low book values in the Carnival accounts.

 

Carnival Corp has a policy of depreciating ships over 30 years with a 15% residual and any improvements are depreciated at a variable rate depending on the age of the ship so an older ship has its modifications amortised much faster than a new ship. In addition, Carnival did review the value of their fleet during the pandemic and further wrote down ships whose value was judged to be less than book value. 

 

And that would keep Pacific Explorer as a P&O Australia ship till 2027. I am not sure what they have in mind for Grand but I can't see how 3 very similar ships sailing for P&O would make any sense ...... oh wait, Princess did that here already with Sun/Dawn/Sea. I would like to think that come 2027, one of those Dam vista ships would look great in P&O colours, Zuiderdam will be 25yrs old in 2027.