Withdrawing Daily Auto Gratuity fees onboard

[Mary229]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

Respectfully, I would caution pax about tipping for the wrong reason.

 

I used to hand money around in third world countries. Than, I realized that I was sending the wrong messages. Employees deserve dignity. They're paid to do a job. Let them do it.

 

Tip culture can get out of hand. The last time I was in Mexico, the shuttle driver tried to fleece me. Drove pass my hotel. I had to shout at him to turn around. At the hotel, he had a predatory anticipation in his eyes. I gave him the standard tip. He quoted a sum far higher. He didn't get what he wanted.

 

IMHO, MSC has the right policy. MSC makes it clear that you can withhold their service charge if staff performance is unsatisfactory. 

 

“However, should you wish to modify any of the daily Hotel Service Charge in the unlikely event that you do not receive satisfactory service, you may do so by contacting the Guest Relations Manager onboard.”

 

https://www.msccruisesusa.com/manage-booking/before-you-go/service-charges

 

No mention about a blacklist. In fact, tips are discouraged. The customer is always right!!!!

 

Here's the professional part of the MSC system. They have designated the CR Manager as the mediator and arbitrator. Presumable, the CR manger will have the time to discuss the problem with the guest. Explain how things work. Apologize where that is needed. Escalate the problem when it is necessary.

 

Of course, I would tip when the server demonstrates customer focus. Tip extra when the server goes beyond the call of duty. But not out of pity or fear.

It looks like you found your new cruise line!   They are expanding and there should be lots of options.  

[Real NHDOC]

Lol, not tipping because it robs the workers of their dignity. That’s one hell of a way to try and justify being a cheapskate. 

[Fouremco]

4 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

used to hand money around in third world countries. Than, I realized that I was sending the wrong messages. Employees deserve dignity. They're paid to do a job. Let them do it.

What a convoluted exercise in self-justification.

 

Whatever it takes to be able to sleep at night... 

[Roz]

I would never even think about going into a place of business and questioning the employees about how they're paid,  how much they're paid,  what's their base pay,  do they make tips,  how are the tips divided or distributed,  do they pay taxes,  do they report some or all of their tips,  etc.

 

Who does this unless they work for the IRS? 🤯

[Moriah]

On 2/9/2024 at 1:40 PM, Gunther1 said:

What is essentially unanswered from those that remove the automatic  tips is the question: How, if at all , do you tip the laundry personnel, the people that you see polishing the stairwells and the promenade  deck, the people in the kitchen (some you see and some you don’t see), the barback, the people that clear the tables on the Lido deck, the assistant waiter, etc ?

 

YES! This.

[Gunther1]

Still waiting for her explanation of the insubordination.  It’s conveniently being ignored. 

[rodndonna]

46 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

P&O says; "Great service comes as standard. Tipping isn't needed on our ships so you can relax knowing good service and good times are all part and parcel of your P&O Cruises holiday."

 

BTW, I will be on MSC in March. Will report back.

 

And yet .....here you are - exclusively commenting on ....."HAL" forum .....🙄

[kirtihk]

On 2/10/2024 at 12:45 PM, rodndonna said:

 

You keep ignoring the fact that the crew compensation is via "gratuities" rather than salary as it is beneficial from a tax perspective providing them with higher compensation at a reduced cost to us. 

 

Clearly, it seems to work well as the majority of cruise lines use  this policy and the majority of guests are OK with it.

 

As long as your definition of "topping  up" is in addition to daily grats, great, otherwise you are undercutting crew and trying to justify it because you don't like the cruise line compensation model. 

Why not to include everything (cruise fare, port charges, gratuities/tips/whatever name is, taxes) in the actual cruise price?  You buy an item (a cruise) - you pay a price for it.  So much of "a good person/bad person" discussion would be eliminated.  Otherwise, time after time rhetorical arguing madness occurs like in this thread.

[Menocchio]

I don't like tipping. Historically, it comes from some pretty nasty bits of history. I don't like paying more than the price quoted upfront. I also don't think a worker should get paid less than usual because a customer is being cheap. If services are rendered at all you should be paid in full. If services are truly unsatisfactory, I should get a full refund. If services are merely mediocre, then you should still get paid but don't expect me to come back. I don't mind an extra reward for truly extraordinary service. But by definition that doesn't happen often. 

 

I really don't like automatic gratuities. At least not for ordinary services. It makes very little sense to me, and feels like the vendor hiding part of the costs until the customer is well committed to paying. And I got mine paid for by HAL on the upcoming cruise I'm taking because I booked early with the HIA package. Which... What? I mean, I don't mind not paying the extra $224 but it completely stretches the supposed point of tipping past the breaking point.  

 

But this is all just an academic argument. I might not like how service employees get paid, but if I use their services I'm going to pay them the way they're accustomed to. They can't pay the rent with my opinions on economics. Instead, I may choose to patronize places that work around tipping. HAL and the rest of the Carnival family seem to be on the lower end for cruise lines which I appreciate, but Virgin Voyages does one better by eliminating them altogether. It definitely makes them more attractive!

[Mary229]

3 minutes ago, kirtihk said:

Why not to include everything (cruise fare, port charges, gratuities/tips/whatever name is, taxes) in the actual cruise price?  You buy an item (a cruise) - you pay a price for it.  So much of "a good person/bad person" discussion would be eliminated.  Otherwise, time after time rhetorical arguing madness occurs like in this thread.

The current argument is because the OP and a few others want to “teach the cruise management a lesson”  by removing tips.  The logic has been very convoluted.  I agree they should quote prices in total - fare, taxes and tips. 

[kirtihk]

15 minutes ago, Mary229 said:

The current argument is because the OP and a few others want to “teach the cruise management a lesson”  by removing tips.  The logic has been very convoluted.  I agree they should quote prices in total - fare, taxes and tips. 

That's my point - with quote of the total price (just 1 number) one wouldn't even be able to teach the cruise management such a lesson.

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, rodndonna said:

 

And yet .....here you are - exclusively commenting on ....."HAL" forum .....🙄

 

This discussion has solidified my decision. How much are you willing to pay for a roll of toilet paper? $1 or $20 or $50?

 

I hope that you now have a better understanding of the relationship between employer, employee and customer. Things get difficult when the company messes up. It shows up on this forum. What's the price of CCL today??

 

BTW, I'm putting you on IGNORE for your own good. Enjoy your cruise!

 

 

[Fouremco]

10 minutes ago, kirtihk said:

Why not to include everything (cruise fare, port charges, gratuities/tips/whatever name is, taxes) in the actual cruise price? 

In theory, I'd love it if all sticker prices were all-inclusive. Canadians have grumbled for years that price tags should reflect the cost of an item inclusive of all sales taxes. But gratuities aren't included because if the same amount was given to crew members as pay rather than tips, the majority would have to pay higher taxes on the increased salary.

 

Port fees and taxes are imposed by the countries visited, and cruise lines have no control over these charges. For example, effective March 1st, the Bahamas will end the VAT exemption for cruise line private islands and will charge 10% on all goods and services provided on these islands. Last year, the head tax increased to $23 from $18 for passengers calling at Nassau and Freeport. For cruisers calling at a private island, the passenger tax is now $25. Plus, the government in January imposed a $5 tourism environmental tax and a $2 tourism enhancement tax on each cruise passenger. When you consider the number of passengers cruising to the Bahamas annually, these new and escalating fees amount to a significant increase. Of course, the Bahamas is not alone in imposing ever-increasing taxes and port fees. Cruise lines are not about to simply absorb costs of this magnitude that they can't predict when setting prices 2 or more years before a cruise takes place.

[Mary229]

6 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

In theory, I'd love it if all sticker prices were all-inclusive. Canadians have grumbled for years that price tags should reflect the cost of an item inclusive of all sales taxes. But gratuities aren't included because if the same amount was given to crew members as pay rather than tips, the majority would have to pay higher taxes on the increased salary.

 

Port fees and taxes are imposed by the countries visited, and cruise lines have no control over these charges. For example, effective March 1st, the Bahamas will end the VAT exemption for cruise line private islands and will charge 10% on all goods and services provided on these islands. Last year, the head tax increased to $23 from $18 for passengers calling at Nassau and Freeport. For cruisers calling at a private island, the passenger tax is now $25. Plus, the government in January imposed a $5 tourism environmental tax and a $2 tourism enhancement tax on each cruise passenger. When you consider the number of passengers cruising to the Bahamas annually, these new and escalating fees amount to a significant increase. Of course, the Bahamas is not alone in imposing ever-increasing taxes and port fees. Cruise lines are not about to simply absorb costs of this magnitude that they can't predict when setting prices 2 or more years before a cruise takes place.

Thanks for the detailed explanation 

[Wakepatrol]

The cruise line should up the price of the cruise by $500 and advertise free tips. The tips would have actually cost $224 but the customer is so excited he’s getting free tips that he doesn’t realize the cruise line is putting an extra $274 into the cruise lines account. A win win for everyone.

 

Can we please stop with the “I Want To Tip Accordingly ” the guy who stands  on line at the end of the cruise and removes the tips, is not giving the $224 to who he seems appropriate.it’s more like $20 for waiter and $20 for cabin steward. That’s $40 vs $224 and I’m being extremely generous with my guesses.

[Mary229]

Just now, Wakepatrol said:

The cruise line should up the price of the cruise by $500 and advertise free tips. The tips would have actually cost $224 but the customer is so excited he’s getting free tips that he doesn’t realize the cruise line is putting an extra $274 into the cruise lines account. A win win for everyone.

 

Can we please stop with the “I Want To Tip Accordingly ” the guy who stands  on line at the end of the cruise and removes the tips, is not giving the $224 to who he seems appropriate.it’s more like $20 for waiter and $20 for cabin steward. That’s $40 vs $224 and I’m being extremely generous with my guesses.

Actually HAL does precisely this with their early booking HIA. I am sure many people are not properly calculating their true benefit to using HIA, few 4 or 5 stars  likely get full benefits 

[kirtihk]

7 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

In theory, I'd love it if all sticker prices were all-inclusive. Canadians have grumbled for years that price tags should reflect the cost of an item inclusive of all sales taxes. But gratuities aren't included because if the same amount was given to crew members as pay rather than tips, the majority would have to pay higher taxes on the increased salary.

 

Port fees and taxes are imposed by the countries visited, and cruise lines have no control over these charges. For example, effective March 1st, the Bahamas will end the VAT exemption for cruise line private islands and will charge 10% on all goods and services provided on these islands. Last year, the head tax increased to $23 from $18 for passengers calling at Nassau and Freeport. For cruisers calling at a private island, the passenger tax is now $25. Plus, the government in January imposed a $5 tourism environmental tax and a $2 tourism enhancement tax on each cruise passenger. When you consider the number of passengers cruising to the Bahamas annually, these new and escalating fees amount to a significant increase. Of course, the Bahamas is not alone in imposing ever-increasing taxes and port fees. Cruise lines are not about to simply absorb costs of this magnitude that they can't predict when setting prices 2 or more years before a cruise takes place.

During my 26 years of cruising, I've never experienced a tax increase on my booking regardless how far in advance I booked a cruise (sometime almost 3 years ahead!).

 

And this is how it should be anyway.  Tips are taxed in US when properly reported on a tax return.

[Fouremco]

15 minutes ago, kirtihk said:

Tips are taxed in US when properly reported on a tax return.

Properly reported by US residents subject to US income tax. That excludes the vast majority of crew members.

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, Menocchio said:

But this is all just an academic argument. I might not like how service employees get paid, but if I use their services I'm going to pay them the way they're accustomed to. They can't pay the rent with my opinions on economics. Instead, I may choose to patronize places that work around tipping.

 

Exactly my point pages earlier.

 

The OP should stop trying to make the cruise line fit their policy and instead find a cruise line that matches their policy. To do anything else is to penalize those who had no hand in making the policy.

 

Now it may be that the OP has done that. Let's hope they enjoy MSC (with their great itineraries 😒) and leave the HAL board in peace.

 

...although reading a few tipping threads on the MSC boards may allow the OP to realize that the situation is, in reality, little different:

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/2965252-cash-tipping/

 

 

[HappyInVan]

It should now be apparent that this is much ado about nothing. 🙄

 

The OP had exercised his legal right to withhold gratuity. His contract does not specify any limitations. So, he could exercise his right for any reason. Therefore, any objection is merely an opinion.

 

Why does he have this right? To save employees a few dollars a day in income tax by shielding some of the income as gratuity!

 

This is what employees signed onto. These are the rules. Sometimes, a pax exercises his right to withhold. This is how the game is played.

 

Employees must understand that it is what it is. Instead of resentment, employer and employee should reflect on how to improve the customer experience. Do something positive!

 

Some pax complain that they have to make up for the withheld gratuity. As I understand it, HAL has to top up the pool at some point. So, no loss to you. Of course, you can replace the OP's gratuity by donating your own money? 👍

 

IMHO, everyone needs to have a clear perspective! Ultimately, it is HAL's problem because they own the system. 😴

 

Edited February 15 by HappyInVan

[Roz]

5 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

This is what employees signed onto. These are the rules. Sometimes, a pax exercises his right to withhold. This is how the game is played.  It's not a game, it's someone's livelihood. 

 

Employees must understand that it is what it is. Instead of resentment, employer and employee should reflect on how to improve the customer experience,  There are some people who are never satisfied.  You can reflect all day if you like,  it's not going to change anything. 

 

 

 

[Wakepatrol]

58 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

 

Employees must understand that it is what it is. Instead of resentment, employer and employee should reflect on how to improve the customer experience. Do something positive!

ya- Then what?