Apex cruising Speed

[NMTraveller]

21 minutes ago, Folsomdoc said:

Saw this on cruisemapper.com. Seas appear calm. This site does not list stabilizer use.

The stabilizers are likely not being used then ...

[tommy921]

18 hours ago, cw2go said:

Hope I am wrong too!

Like I said I'm not an engineer and it could be several things but until Celebrity is transparent we only can speculate. The Feb 10th sailing swayed the entire trip, I remarked that while hitting San Juan it should have calmed down by now, our travel friends were very sick. 

 

 

Patty 

Whilst it might be entirely unrelated, it is reported on a Facebook forum that the ship suffered a power failure for about 5 to 10 minutes on the February 3rd sailing (the length of time varies on the reports). A number of people who were on board have commented about this!

Edited February 25 by tommy921

[tommy921]

There don't seem to be any current speed issues - 22 knots in 1.5m (moderate) sea - screenshot taken from Cruisemapper. Celebrity really need to be a bit more transparent in my view, as to the reasoning for so many time changes.

[PinkT]

Was looking at booking the 11 night Iceland out of Southampton this June but then read this thread. It’s put me off. I also have had a previous experience with Royal Carribbean and Anthem a couple of years back. They emailed the time changes, I googled and there were many posts and articles saying there was an engine issue but a part couldn’t be sourced due to Covid. It freaked me out a bit. We were paid in full and I called them, explained what I read online and customer service gave us a full refund within seconds with no denial of what I’d asked. 

 

I just never know if it’s safe to be on a ship that MAY be having issues with engines or stabilisers in the middle of the ocean?

 

[chengkp75]

16 hours ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

For stabilizers either mechanical which is unlikely as hardware and sensors or software  which adjusts the stabilizers to keep things in trim in conjunction with engine thrust.

Software is not my area of expertise but should be able to be solved in a simulation.

Actually, "engine thrust" has nothing to do with stabilizer operation.  Stabilizer operation is based on ship rolling motion.  The ship needs to actually start rolling in one direction or the other, and the sensor detects this motion from the vertical, and sends a signal to the fins to oppose the roll.  Stabilizers are not designed to, nor will they, stop a ship from rolling.  Their designed function is to make the rolling slower (more time from one end of the roll to the other) to make it more comfortable.

 

As far as reducing speed because of a stabilizer problem, this just doesn't make sense.  The fin stabilizers act like airplane wings, so the faster the water flows over the fin, the more effective it is, therefore, slowing down causes the stabilizers to be less effective.  At about 6 knots, the fins lose all effectiveness, and in most cases will automatically retract (this is a safety feature, in case they are accidentally not retracted when docking).

 

As for the Apex being more sensitive to motion than other ships, the only way to compare two ships' motion is to have them both sailing in the same place, at the same time, in the same direction and speed.  There are way too many variables otherwise to make comparisons otherwise.

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, PinkT said:

Was looking at booking the 11 night Iceland out of Southampton this June but then read this thread. It’s put me off. I also have had a previous experience with Royal Carribbean and Anthem a couple of years back. They emailed the time changes, I googled and there were many posts and articles saying there was an engine issue but a part couldn’t be sourced due to Covid. It freaked me out a bit. We were paid in full and I called them, explained what I read online and customer service gave us a full refund within seconds with no denial of what I’d asked. 

 

I just never know if it’s safe to be on a ship that MAY be having issues with engines or stabilisers in the middle of the ocean?

 

Many, many cruise ships sail around with passengers onboard, and with one diesel engine completely torn down for overhaul, every year, and no one is the wiser.  These overhauls take around 4 weeks to complete, so generally itineraries are set to not require the ship to make full speed (as the ship generally needs all diesel engines running to make full speed) to accommodate the overhaul.  It is when things happen, like your Anthem situation, where one engine was down for maintenance, and a second engine went down for repair, that the itinerary needed to be adjusted due to reduced speed.  However, even in that case, the "powers that be", in the form of the classification societies (the third party inspection services that are required by the "flag state", and give the ship her "certificate of seaworthiness", and the national maritime agencies in the various "port states" where the ship calls, have given their blessing to the ship being seaworthy, even with one or two engines down (the ship still has multiple engines available, which is more than 99% of the ships crossing the ocean).

 

And whether or not a ship has stabilizers has no bearing on whether it is considered "seaworthy", as the initial stability calculations for the ship don't take into account the stabilizers, as they are a variable source of roll control, depending on ship speed, current, sea direction, etc.

[Dottymac]

Hi,

 

I am back on the CC forum because I have just booked a second Celebrity Cruise after our first in 2016 which my husband and I thoroughly enjoyed. I thought getting back up to speed online with the Cruise world would help us with uptodate information before our cruise on Apex later this year. However the speculation on this thread has completely alarmed me. 

 

I too received the email stating that only 5 of the 16 arrival/departure times on our cruise have been amended by up to an hour at most due to "sailing speed restrictions". In my naiviety I accepted this notification at face value, without alarm, especially as the changes are minimal and it will not affect our cruise in the slightest. 

 

I am obviously an amateur cruiser but I can't believe Celebrity would allow an "unseaworthy" ship out on the open seas. Or am I wrong? Such random speculation in many of the previous posts (and that is what it appears to be at the moment) seems unnecessary when booking a cruise is supposed to be such a positive experience to look forward to, in an already unsettling world. I'm hoping to gain more positive and helpful information from this forum going forward as we are really looking forward to a much-needed holiday. Thank you.

Edited February 25 by Dottymac

[tommy921]

15 minutes ago, Dottymac said:

Hi,

 

I am back on the CC forum because I have just booked a second Celebrity Cruise after our first in 2016 which my husband and I thoroughly enjoyed. I thought getting back up to speed online with the Cruise world would help us with uptodate information before our cruise on Apex later this year. However the speculation on this thread has completely alarmed me. 

 

I too received the email stating that only 5 of the 16 arrival/departure times on our cruise have been amended by up to an hour at most due to "sailing speed restrictions". In my naiviety I accepted this notification at face value, without alarm, especially as the changes are minimal and it will not affect our cruise in the slightest. 

 

I am obviously an amateur cruiser but I can't believe Celebrity would allow an "unseaworthy" ship out on the open seas. Or am I wrong? Such random speculation in many of the previous posts (and that is what it appears to be at the moment) seems unnecessary when booking a cruise is supposed to be such a positive experience to look forward to, in an already unsettling world. I'm hoping to gain more positive and helpful information from this forum going forward as we are really looking forward to a much-needed holiday. Thank you.

We have two cruises booked this year on the Apex and we were disappointed to receive the two e-mails a few days ago about some time changes. We are spending a considerable amount of money for both cruises (plus excursions) and are really disappointed with Celebrity over this.
 

There seems to be no regular pattern for the time changes on our two cruises, which only affects some ports on each cruise.
 

First cruise - late leaving Southampton, and changes to Flam, Tromso, and Honningsvag.

Second cruise - late leaving Southampton, and changes to Porto, Lisbon, Valencia and late returning to Southampton.
 

Quite a few of us Brits were very sorry to see the Silhouette leave the UK (Southampton) last year and Celebrity have 'trumpeted' the arrival of the Apex for 2024 - yet early impressions are not good with all the changes for many cruises, and no clear explanation from Celebrity.

[Dottymac]

Hi Tommy921

 

Thanks for replying and sorry you are so disappointed with Celebrity. Celebrity is not a cheap cruise line so expectations are high.

 

We are on the same cruise as you in September. Personally arriving 30 minutes later in Porto and Lisbon and an hour later in Valencia doesn't really bother me and I will be glad of the extra hour in bed arriving back at Southampon at 7am rather than 6am ;-). At least they are still (currently) stopping at these ports and haven't been cancelled altogether (yet). From my minimal experience cruising and lifelong experience flying/travelling, delays and changes are always par for the course, so my expectations are not high generally in this area. We had a cruise cancelled in 2022 only a few weeks before we were due to sail as a result of Covid and European cruises not being sold out at the time. That was highly frustrating and disappointing but, as a result of world events, life seems to be increasingly unstable and unreliable. 

 

I understand people are frustrated and want to share this information/frustration. My point of the post was how quickly the information turned into speculation without any obvious foundation that the ship is "unseaworthy". This currently is not fact and therefore unhelpful and a further cause of unnecessary worry. I also don't understand why people think Celebrity are being "secretive". I think it is quite helpful giving advance notice to amend any plans. Personally I wouldn't expect a "detailed" explanation of why a few arrival/departure times have been changed. When Jet2 change my flight times (which they regularly do) I never get an explanation. 

 

Hopefully the cruise will still go ahead and see you on board.

Edited February 25 by Dottymac

[BigAl94]

I don't recall any post saying Apex was unseaworthy. I think those of us who are paying considerable amounts for cruises on Apex are entitled to know why this ship alone is affected by speed restrictions and in the absence of that information from Celebrity, speculation is bound to arise. If they continue to be secretive, that would concern me. 

[chengkp75]

I suspect that one of the diesel engines is down for overhaul, and the ship cannot make the required speed for all ports.  This is routine maintenance.  The need to change the itinerary after it was sold, is possibly due to "technical" (the ship operation/maintenance department) not fully communicating with "sales" (who makes the itineraries), about an upcoming overhaul.

Edited February 25 by chengkp75

[Dottymac]

Thanks BigAl94,

 

As I explained initially I am an amateur cruiser and I didn't realise that Customers are supposed to be informed on all the technicalities and issues a ship may or may not have. Is this Cruise line-specific? How much detail do they usually give when there are changes to itineraries?  Good job we don't have this detailed information on airlines, trains and all other modes of transport otherwise we wouldn't travel anywhere. 

 

Once again my point is that the speculation causes unnecessary alarm. And the problem with speculation is that many people treat it as fact and then take unnecessary action. It's just an observation coming to this forum afresh after a long break. 

[tscoffey]

13 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I suspect that one of the diesel engines is down for overhaul, and the ship cannot make the required speed for all ports.  This is routine maintenance.  The need to change the itinerary after it was sold, is possibly due to "technical" (the ship operation/maintenance department) not fully communicating with "sales" (who makes the itineraries), about an upcoming overhaul.

I leave for Ft. Lauderdale, and my Apex cruise across the Atlantic, in 66 days. Unless an experienced engineer in these systems gets on here and tells me there is a problem, then nothing I’ve read gives me the slightest concern as to my enjoyment of that 13-night cruise. 

Edited February 25 by tscoffey

[CruisingTheWaves]

8 minutes ago, tscoffey said:

I leave for Ft. Lauderdale, and my Apex cruise across the Atlantic, in 66 days.

Unless an experienced engineer in these systems gets on here and tells me there is a problem, then nothing I’ve read gives me the slightest concern as to my enjoyment of that 13-night cruise. 

Same. I leave on March 9th.

[Lastdance]

I have read on other social media sites that cruisers have commented on the ship losing power for 5-8 minutes, but came back on and things were fine.  Several people commented that this did not affect their cruises at all; even one said that having the lights go out for dinner was very nice!

[hcat]

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Many, many cruise ships sail around with passengers onboard, and with one diesel engine completely torn down for overhaul, every year, and no one is the wiser.  These overhauls take around 4 weeks to complete, so generally itineraries are set to not require the ship to make full speed (as the ship generally needs all diesel engines running to make full speed) to accommodate the overhaul.  It is when things happen, like your Anthem situation, where one engine was down for maintenance, and a second engine went down for repair, that the itinerary needed to be adjusted due to reduced speed.  However, even in that case, the "powers that be", in the form of the classification societies (the third party inspection services that are required by the "flag state", and give the ship her "certificate of seaworthiness", and the national maritime agencies in the various "port states" where the ship calls, have given their blessing to the ship being seaworthy, even with one or two engines down (the ship still has multiple engines available, which is more than 99% of the ships crossing the ocean).

 

And whether or not a ship has stabilizers has no bearing on whether it is considered "seaworthy", as the initial stability calculations for the ship don't take into account the stabilizers, as they are a variable source of roll control, depending on ship speed, current, sea direction, etc.

I was hoping we would hear from you with comments  .  Thank You!

 

I think folks can deal with lower speeds but only if the ride is smooth! No.one wants to "rock and roll"

 

I still remember a cruise on Grace Line out of NYC ;  I was a teen with my parents .  All was great..even the dance floor..but at night  the Cap said he shut off  the stabilizers to make better speed.  No clue if that was true but it wax a rocky ride overnight!

[tommy921]

4 hours ago, Dottymac said:

Hi Tommy921

 

Thanks for replying and sorry you are so disappointed with Celebrity. Celebrity is not a cheap cruise line so expectations are high.

 

We are on the same cruise as you in September. Personally arriving 30 minutes later in Porto and Lisbon and an hour later in Valencia doesn't really bother me and I will be glad of the extra hour in bed arriving back at Southampon at 7am rather than 6am ;-). At least they are still (currently) stopping at these ports and haven't been cancelled altogether (yet). From my minimal experience cruising and lifelong experience flying/travelling, delays and changes are always par for the course, so my expectations are not high generally in this area. We had a cruise cancelled in 2022 only a few weeks before we were due to sail as a result of Covid and European cruises not being sold out at the time. That was highly frustrating and disappointing but, as a result of world events, life seems to be increasingly unstable and unreliable. 

 

I understand people are frustrated and want to share this information/frustration. My point of the post was how quickly the information turned into speculation without any obvious foundation that the ship is "unseaworthy". This currently is not fact and therefore unhelpful and a further cause of unnecessary worry. I also don't understand why people think Celebrity are being "secretive". I think it is quite helpful giving advance notice to amend any plans. Personally I wouldn't expect a "detailed" explanation of why a few arrival/departure times have been changed. When Jet2 change my flight times (which they regularly do) I never get an explanation. 

 

Hopefully the cruise will still go ahead and see you on board.

Yes, whilst this (our) Portugal/Med cruise isn't too badly affected, our other cruise to Norway is.

For that cruise, we now arrive in Flam 1 hour earlier at 7am, BUT we leave 3 hours earlier at 3pm. This has caused huge inconvenience for many who have booked excursions there - especially on the train. So we lose 2 hours.

For Tromso, we arrive 4 hours later at 1pm and leave at the same time - so we lose 4 hours.

For Honningsvag we arrive 1 hour earlier but leave 2 hours earlier.

We have been on a many Celebrity cruises and have had our fair share of cancellation of ports due to weather, which are not the fault of Celebrity. The most memorable being anchored outside St Petersburg for 2 days (high winds) and missing Bar Harbor (a weather bomb).

Like BigAl94 - post #60, I don't recall anyone saying the ship is not seaworthy. The post by chengkp75 - post  #56 is very informative as to the rules and regulations.

As we had to transfer two cruises last year to this year for medical reasons with my wife, we are very loathed to cancel these two, and we will just have to 'lump it'. But our UK Celebrity cruise rep will be told our dissatisfaction!



 

Edited February 25 by tommy921

[NMTraveller]

2 hours ago, Dottymac said:

Once again my point is that the speculation causes unnecessary alarm. 

Celebrity not being transparent causes unnecessary alarm.  They could have said one engine is down for maintenance,  but we have x other engines.

[Dottymac]

I understand your concerns/frustration Tommy921 regarding your Norwegian cruise. And am sorry your wife has had medical issues. I have had a dreadful 4 years caring for a mother with Alzheimersand a F-I-L dying of cancer, so booking this cruise was seen as a ray of light for me, only now to be dashed that it may not happen.

 

My genuine question still remains regarding what is the norm for Cruise lines? Are they usually far more explicit in terms of technical issues and detailed reasons for changes? I would be grateful if someone could respond to this as it may put this all more into perspective for me. 

Thank you.

[chengkp75]

18 minutes ago, NMTraveller said:

Celebrity not being transparent causes unnecessary alarm.  They could have said one engine is down for maintenance,  but we have x other engines.

 

2 minutes ago, Dottymac said:

My genuine question still remains regarding what is the norm for Cruise lines? Are they usually far more explicit in terms of technical issues and detailed reasons for changes? I would be grateful if someone could respond to this as it may put this all more into perspective for me. 

Thank you.

Do the airlines tell you what the exact reason is why your scheduled aircraft has been replaced with another aircraft at the last moment, causing a delay?  Not in my experience, it is just a "due to a mechanical problem" explanation.  Why should cruise lines be different?  How many aircraft fly with deferred maintenance items?  Quite a lot.  Cruise ships are the same, except a cruise ship can perform the maintenance underway, while an aircraft cannot.

[NMTraveller]

19 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

 

Do the airlines tell you what the exact reason is why your scheduled aircraft has been replaced with another aircraft at the last moment, causing a delay?  Not in my experience, it is just a "due to a mechanical problem" explanation.  Why should cruise lines be different?  How many aircraft fly with deferred maintenance items?  Quite a lot.  Cruise ships are the same, except a cruise ship can perform the maintenance underway, while an aircraft cannot.

The airlines frequently do tell you if there is an issue and a delay.   Not all airports have spares.

Now when one is being replaced with an airworthy aircraft, it does not matter.  Is Celebrity replacing the cruise ship with one that has had their engines overhauled (speculation).  No.

 

The point is that speculation can be worse than the actual event.  So therefore better to be transparent.  You gain trust of the company that way.  

 

Your speculation about engine maintenance is speculation.

 

IMHO the airlines are more transparent about repairs and more regulated.

Edited February 25 by NMTraveller

[Dottymac]

Thankyou Chengkp75. That is my experience so I do not understand why so many people deem Celebrity as not being transparent and being secretive in this instance. Maybe people have had bad experiences with Celebrity that I am not aware of and there is a mistrust issue based on that which is understandable. If that is the case why would people book with them. I am not trying to be difficult - I am trying to understand if there is a genuine reason to be concerned about having booked this cruise. I will contact my TA tomorrow.

[PinkT]

Just for comparison this is the email I received from Royal Carribbean back in 2022:

“Dear Guest,

 

To accommodate routine engine maintenance, we've reduced our speed between ports and as a result, we've adjusted some of our arrival and departure times in Spain, Portugal, and the Canary Islands. We're terribly sorry for any inconvenience caused by this, but the safety and comfort of our guests and crew is always our top priority. Below, please find our revised Anthem of the Seas 23 September 2022 itinerary.” There were substantial time losses to times in port. I believe it was over 9 hours in total. As I say RCL didn’t even try to argue and gave me a full refund despite it being way past pay in full date. Concerning that there still seems to be similar issues with Anthem now nearly 2 years later. But that’s an aside.

 

My main issue now with Celebrity is can I stump up money and book for a cruise now knowing there’s some kind of potentially similar issue with Apex and I may not get everything advertised in regards to port time 🤷‍♀️  Just quite disappointing 

[NMTraveller]

3 minutes ago, PinkT said:

Just for comparison this is the email I received from Royal Carribbean back in 2022:

“Dear Guest,

 

To accommodate routine engine maintenance, we've reduced our speed between ports and as a result, we've adjusted some of our arrival and departure times in Spain, Portugal, and the Canary Islands. We're terribly sorry for any inconvenience caused by this, but the safety and comfort of our guests and crew is always our top priority. Below, please find our revised Anthem of the Seas 23 September 2022 itinerary.” There were substantial time losses to times in port. I believe it was over 9 hours in total. As I say RCL didn’t even try to argue and gave me a full refund despite it being way past pay in full date. Concerning that there still seems to be similar issues with Anthem now nearly 2 years later. But that’s an aside.

 

My main issue now with Celebrity is can I stump up money and book for a cruise now knowing there’s some kind of potentially similar issue with Apex and I may not get everything advertised in regards to port time 🤷‍♀️  Just quite disappointing 

This.  If I received a letter like this I would probably keep the cruise.

 

Due to the uncertainty I would be tempted to cancel.  What really is the issue?

[Dottymac]

Thanks PinkT,

 

Do you know if the routine engine maintenance just occurred during your cruise or for the whole cruising season as implied by the number of Celebrity cruises affected by sailing speeds this year?

 

Is the description of "routine engine maintenance" transparent enough for the cruisers out there or would it cause more speculation? At what level of technical detail would the speculation stop? Or would that explanation just make Customers less confident as NMTraveller implies (if I have read his reply correctly).

 

To me cruise ships must be permanently having ongoing maintenance going on as a result of the 10's of thousands of miles they must sail each year with B2B itineraries, so isn't this just business as usual? Or is this a unique situation?