Wow! Jeez! Stabbing on Encore

[ChutChut]

On 5/8/2024 at 8:43 AM, Laszlo said:

Crazy stuff can happen anywhere. Hopefully everyone is OK at the end of the day. I wonder if the woman passenger will get a free cruise.

She'll get much more than that.

[ChutChut]

17 hours ago, www3traveler said:

From all the media reports I have seen, NO ONE was seriously hurt or needed off ship medical attention. 

A customer was stabbed multiple times. You bet she's going to receive substantial - and justified - compensation. 

[ChutChut]

15 hours ago, SeekingKillerWhales! said:

Are you sure about that? The cruise ships are not American and I'm not sure people have many "rights" to sue like they would in the USA and other countries. I think they protect themselves very, very well from litigation, and there are not the lawsuits for wrongful death, assault, rape, etc., that maybe there should be.

 

Not an expert, and definitely not a lawyer, but they protect themselves from so much liability it would not surprise me if we are all signing away lawsuit rights. 

Nah - she'll receive a generous settlement. 

[ChutChut]

8 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Since both of these are in the Philippines, she won't likely get anything there.

No - she'll get it from Norwegian. No need to go after the small fry. 

[ChutChut]

6 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

How are her lawyers going to get the principals of the crewing agency from the Philippines to a court in the US?  How likely is a Filipino crew member to have personal liability insurance, and while he may be physically in the US for a criminal trial and incarceration, forcing an insurance company (if there is one) in the Philippines to pay up would be difficult.

Injured passenger won't need any of that as her suit will be against Norwegian. She doesn't need to go after the Filipino agency. It will be Norwegian's insurance company that will pay out. 

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, ChutChut said:

Injured passenger won't need any of that as her suit will be against Norwegian. She doesn't need to go after the Filipino agency. It will be Norwegian's insurance company that will pay out. 

I realize that, I was responding to someone who suggested that she sue these people as well.

[ChutChut]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I realize that, I was responding to someone who suggested that she sue these people as well.

Ahhh - sorry 'bout that!

[Two Wheels Only]

4 hours ago, European_CruiseGirl said:

No, we did not report this to anyone (in retrospect should have) but the guy told us he was leaving the ship (and NCL) in 1,5 weeks time so thought he’d be away soon enough anyway. 

 

An intoxicated 15 year-old boy was sexually assaulted by another male guest on a NCL ship. Even if the NCL employee didn't plan to assault your daughter, the act of giving a 15 year-old alcohol is a very serious matter.

[Two Wheels Only]

1 hour ago, DCGuy64 said:

I'm glad you didn't report him, it would be rather cruel to have someone lose his job and potentially the only source of income of his family over something like this.

 

See my post above.

It is unknown if a NCL employee gave alcohol to the boy who was assaulted but if anything serious had happened to the 15 year-old daughter, then people would ask "...why didn't someone report him...?". 

 

 

[marrashadow]

They can sue NCL very easily as they have a US office located in Miami. Which means they have a US business license as do most cruise lines. They own ports and buildings in US. Even with a parent company in a foreign country they only have to go after US address licensed. A simple google search and you will see lawsuits are brought against them in US often. Which is why your cruise contracts have so many pages and exclusions. The contract states you have to settle in the home office country but that is not what generally happens because US courts don't allow such a restriction. Injury lawyers state normal payouts from cruise lines are between 50k to 500k so don't think they are getting millions. 

[DCGuy64]

1 hour ago, Two Wheels Only said:

 

See my post above.

It is unknown if a NCL employee gave alcohol to the boy who was assaulted but if anything serious had happened to the 15 year-old daughter, then people would ask "...why didn't someone report him...?". 

 

 

Lots of "if's" in there. Let's stick to the facts, shall we? The facts are that the bartender attempted to serve a 15 year old alcohol and she refused. No crime committed, no reason to get someone fired.

[DCGuy64]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

is only trying to get bigger tips.

Ah, I didn't know you were familiar with the individual and his reasons for doing that. My bad... 😉 

[Two Wheels Only]

25 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Lots of "if's" in there. Let's stick to the facts, shall we? The facts are that the bartender attempted to serve a 15 year old alcohol and she refused. No crime committed, no reason to get someone fired.

 

How do you know IF the bartender would have been fired?

[ChiCruzr]

1 hour ago, DCGuy64 said:

Lots of "if's" in there. Let's stick to the facts, shall we? The facts are that the bartender attempted to serve a 15 year old alcohol and she refused. No crime committed, no reason to get someone fired.

 

I don't know if it rises to the level of a crime, but I don't think that servers are even supposed to offer alcohol to minors.

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, DCGuy64 said:

Lots of "if's" in there. Let's stick to the facts, shall we? The facts are that the bartender attempted to serve a 15 year old alcohol and she refused. No crime committed, no reason to get someone fired.

I can't say what the applicable law might be in the case you're mentioning, but it certainly would be a crime in the State of New Jersey. The applicable statute is N.J.S.A. 2C 33-17. In addition to it being illegal to serve or sell alcohol to a minor, enticing or encouraging a minor to drink alcohol is also prohibited under this law.

Edited May 9 by njhorseman

[Panhandle Couple]

1 hour ago, marrashadow said:

They can sue NCL very easily as they have a US office located in Miami. Which means they have a US business license as do most cruise lines. They own ports and buildings in US. Even with a parent company in a foreign country they only have to go after US address licensed. A simple google search and you will see lawsuits are brought against them in US often. Which is why your cruise contracts have so many pages and exclusions. The contract states you have to settle in the home office country but that is not what generally happens because US courts don't allow such a restriction. Injury lawyers state normal payouts from cruise lines are between 50k to 500k so don't think they are getting millions. 

Because NCL does have many operations in US shore side, they would logically be subject to any legal action pertaining to those operations.

 

However...

This incident happen in the open seas.  Admiralty Law takes precedent, as I see it.

 

 https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/admiralty

"Under admiralty, the ship's flag determines the source of law. For example, a ship flying the American flag in the Persian Gulf would be subject to American admiralty law; and a ship flying a Norwegian flag in American waters would be subject to Norwegian admiralty law. This also applies to criminal law governing the ship's crew."

"American courts may refuse jurisdiction where it would involve applying the law of another country, although in general international law does seek uniformity in admiralty law."

 

More info on the process:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiralty_law

Personal Injuries to Passengers.

"The passenger bears the burden of proving that the shipowner was negligent. While personal injury cases must generally be pursued within three years, suits against cruise lines may need to be brought within one year because of limitations contained in the passenger ticket. Notice requirements in the ticket may require a formal notice to be brought within six months of the injury. Most U.S. cruise line passenger tickets also have provisions requiring that suit to be brought in either Miami or Seattle."

 

United States

Jurisdiction.

"....all other maritime cases, such as claims for personal injuries, cargo damage, collisions, maritime products liability, and recreational boating accidents may be brought in either federal or state court.

From a tactical standpoint it is important to consider that in federal courts in the United States, there is generally no right to trial by jury in admiralty cases, although the 1920 Jones Act grants a jury trial to seamen suing their employers."

 

Applicable Law

"A state court hearing an admiralty or maritime case is required to apply the admiralty and maritime law, even if it conflicts with the law of the state, under a doctrine known as the "reverse-Erie doctrine". While the "Erie doctrine" requires that federal courts hearing state actions must apply substantive state law, the "reverse-Erie doctrine" requires state courts hearing admiralty cases to apply substantive federal admiralty law. However, state courts are allowed to apply state procedural law."

 

Not as easy as everyone is suggesting.

Clearly falls under Admiralty law.

6 months to make a claim.

Seattle or Miami (most likely),

Court would need to make a determination why Bahama Admiralty law wouldn't apply.

A state court (if it is in that venue) still has to follow Federal laws. No advantage to state shopping.  State must also have judges certified for Admiralty law. 

No jury involved in the trial.

 

 

 

[chengkp75]

11 minutes ago, Panhandle Couple said:

This incident happen in the open seas.  Admiralty Law takes precedent, as I see it.

There is an overlap in jurisdiction between "port state" (the country where the port or waters the incident happened in) and "flag state" (the country where the ship is registered).  And this gray area is what keeps Admiralty lawyers in business.  In a port (I don't remember if this happened in port or at sea), the flag state has jurisdiction on the ship, unless the "safety or well being" of the port state are affected, in which case the port state has jurisdiction.  However, the US has also claimed "extra-territorial" jurisdiction to claim jurisdiction over certain crimes against US citizens that happen on the open ocean (in no other country's waters), regardless of the flag of the ship.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, DCGuy64 said:

Ah, I didn't know you were familiar with the individual and his reasons for doing that. My bad... 😉 

Why else would he knowingly violate company policy, and then continue to press the issue in the face of the parents wishes?  I'll tell you what, every single Captain I've worked for, and every Hotel Director would fire that man in an instant if that was reported.  You actually condone this?

[Panhandle Couple]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

There is an overlap in jurisdiction between "port state" (the country where the port or waters the incident happened in) and "flag state" (the country where the ship is registered).  And this gray area is what keeps Admiralty lawyers in business.  In a port (I don't remember if this happened in port or at sea), the flag state has jurisdiction on the ship, unless the "safety or well being" of the port state are affected, in which case the port state has jurisdiction.  However, the US has also claimed "extra-territorial" jurisdiction to claim jurisdiction over certain crimes against US citizens that happen on the open ocean (in no other country's waters), regardless of the flag of the ship.

The timeline is unclear in the news articles, but here is what I came up with.

Other crew stated he was only onboard "24 hrs".

It was also stated that the incidents happened at night.

If Encore left Seattle on Sunday afternoon, it could have happened Sunday or Monday night, but sounds like Monday.  Which would be somewhere off the coast of Canada.

We didn't find out until they ported in Juneau on Wednesday, which is right for sailing duration.

 

As this was not an act of piracy or terrorism, applying extra-territorial rights seems unnecessary?  That would be important for criminal charges, but liability claims?  The two may end up being tied together for which court gets the cases, assuming there is a liability claim. 

In any case, a judge will likely recommend binding arbitration vs being the determinate of any award.

 

My point was what you mentioned, lots of grey areas here, which most "personal injury" lawyers are not prepared to handle.

[Candy Apple 12]

On 5/8/2024 at 12:32 PM, chengkp75 said:

Just the same as they have in the past, essentially not at all.  Probably 25-30% of new hires either don't complete their first contract, or never come back after the first contract.  No way to "vett" somebody as to whether they are compatible with shipboard life.

Do most crew have shore training before getting on the ship? Or do they do all their onboarding with HR and training for their position specific duties on the ship? Just curious since this was the crew member’s first day on the ship. I wondered how much in person interaction he had with NCL prior to that day. 

[MohrPfun]

NCL Brass will want this settled as quickly and quietly as possible, which means a generous settlement and an NDA on the terms.  I can almost guarantee you that is what will happen here, and none of us will know the outcome.  That’s why they flew there and are handling this in person.  The alternative PR that would result from this moving forward in the court of public opinion, and/or law all but makes it a fait accompli.  It’s really that simple.

[ChiefMateJRK]

News flash.  This just in.  There are crazy people in this world.  That's okay, because victims can easily get tens of millions of dollars from large corporations who had literally nothing to do with making the crazies crazy.  Is that okay?  Of course not.  It's (certainly) not a perfect world.  It was once upon a time, but then there was this thing with an apple....

 

Large corporations have much better lawyers than the victims.  They have to.  They'll pay out a million or so with robust NDAs.  It's a marketing cost.  Have you folks not lived in the world of large corporations?  Some have spent over half their lives there.  That's the real world.  Not what you read in the funny papers.  If somebody does get ten million, you'll never read about it.  Or, do you think that they'll turn down the offer and pay a lawyer their life savings to drag out in the (international?) courts for years/decades?

[ChiefMateJRK]

2 hours ago, MohrPfun said:

NCL Brass will want this settled as quickly and quietly as possible, which means a generous settlement and an NDA on the terms.  

Bingo.  Although, while they would like it to be quickly, quietly and at minimum cost will be the marching orders.

[chengkp75]

8 hours ago, Candy Apple 12 said:

Do most crew have shore training before getting on the ship? Or do they do all their onboarding with HR and training for their position specific duties on the ship? Just curious since this was the crew member’s first day on the ship. I wondered how much in person interaction he had with NCL prior to that day. 

Virtually all crew are hired from crewing services in their home country, which supply crew to many different cruise lines.Some lines, HAL for instance, have training academies in Indonesia where crew learn the basics of their jobs (table service, guest interaction, some cooking skills, etc), while in most countries the onshore training of new hires is minimal.  All safety training and most training in their assigned duties is done in the first week onboard.  Typically, the first NCL employee that a new hire will meet will be the HR clerk signing them on the ship.

[PaperSniper4]

23 hours ago, Laszlo said:

My company was in a law suit a number of years ago against a company based out of Spain. Long story short it was for a very expensive piece of equipment that failed. We were told by our lawyers and some others unless you are looking to recover 10 of millions of dollars and have many years to kill move on. Had this been a US based company it would have been "Easy" being based in another country makes it extremely difficult 

Ouch! Yet another reason to "Buy American"!😎