Is this a new Gratuities policy?

[TenneSea]

On 5/29/2024 at 7:41 AM, whitecap said:

I believe that most cruisers believe that by paying the gratuities, they are tipping those crew members on their cruise who provided good or exceptional services.  They very well may not be.  The gratuities paid, as stated in the Princess paperwork, go into a pool, controlled by Princess and distributed by Princess throughout the fleet!  Your room steward may never see a dime of the gratuities you paid and the same for those in the dining room who served you so well.  

If I go to a restaurant and the wait staff does an excellent job, I don't hand the owner extra money to be put in his or her pocket, to be distributed, throughout the year to all those who work at the restaurant.  Why should it be any different when cruising.  With the exception of our very first cruise (we are now over 50), we have always removed the gratuities, obtained small envelopes from Customer Service desk, and given tips directly to the persons who went above and beyond to see to it that we enjoyed our cruise.  

I think you will find that most restaurants now pool all tips given to the wait staff.

[TenneSea]

On 5/29/2024 at 10:00 AM, JimmyVWine said:

Do you really think that the cruise lines have not test-marketed this concept?  Or restaurants for that matter?  I can guarantee you that the system is the way it is because the cruise line knows that if it charges $1,120 up front instead of $1,000 with $17 per day for 7 days added on as gratuities, it will sell fewer cruises.  People seem to think that they know the industry better than the people who actually run it.  When you go to a restaurant and see a steak on the menu for $40, if you order it, you are going to pay $48.  You aren't being cheated, or hoodwinked, or deceived.  And the $8 gratuity that you pay is not a "reward" for the server.  It is part of their pay.  We live with this reality every day.  The system is working.  If it weren't, it would change.  Businesses change to evolve to the better.  If they don't, they fail. We have to trust that the people running multi-billion dollar businesses actually have a grasp on this. 

"Trust" ... such an interesting word.

[TenneSea]

On 5/29/2024 at 10:54 AM, whitecap said:

And how are you not understanding that I don't go to restaurants that use my "tip" as a wage booster.  Just because the State says its ok for an employer to pay less than the minimum wage, take the employee's "tips" and use it to supplement their wage, doesn't make it right.  I tip to say thank you for great service, not be an extra employer paying a portion of their wages.  I tip my room steward for giving me good service, not to allow Princess to "pool" my money and then disperse it to whomever they want, on whatever ship they may be on, throughout the year!  Raise the price of the cruise fare by $300, pay a good wage and tell your customers that there is no tipping.  Don't tell them it is "crew appreciation" and do whatever the heck you want with it.  By the way, did you find where the chicken is? 🤔 

Couldn't read the label.

[TenneSea]

On 5/29/2024 at 12:11 PM, JimmyVWine said:

It's would be best to look at this from 50,000 feet the way the people who run the business do.  They have obviously looked at this from every angle.  Some of their findings would include:

• In areas of the world where tipping is not the custom, we can build the added crew wage into the basic fare and people will accept that. No further Crew Appreciation will be required.   It will look like our company is paying the crew a living wage, but in the end, the customer is doing that through higher fares.  Customers in this part of the world will accept this model.
• In areas of the world where tipping is the custom, we are better served by offering low fares and adding on a mandatory Crew Appreciation to boost the crew's wages.  If we build that cost into the basic fare while correspondingly doing away with the Crew Appreciation and other cruise lines do not follow suit, we will lose business. Cruise price comparison websites will not account for this change and our prices will appear facially higher.  By adding on the Crew Appreciation, our crew will earn a living wage based in part on their salary and in part on the mandatory Crew Appreciation.  We get to the same place as the model listed above, but do so in a less direct way.  Customers in this part of the world will accept this model.
• Our crew members will earn more money and be happier if we make the Crew Appreciation mandatory as well as adding on an 18% charge to items ordered on board. If we go back to the "envelope" system, too many people will conveniently forget to hand out envelopes and our crew will suffer because of it.  And with Medallion Ordering, guests will be served by countless crew members each cruise, and short of the guests walking around with a wad of singles, those crew members will not get rewarded.  And we want to sell our cruises as being "cashless".  
• Best yet, let's build out packages that bundle all of the nickel and diming into one daily fare and place Crew Appreciation into those packages.  People will know up front what they are paying and what they are getting.  Our marketing team can put together glossy one-pagers that show how beneficial the packages are.  Make sure to throw in color photos of garish-looking ice cream sundaes.   

I doubt the crew members saw any increase in pay.  Probably less.

[JimmyVWine]

1 hour ago, TenneSea said:

I doubt the crew members saw any increase in pay.  Probably less.

No crew member that I know and stay in touch with has complained about a decrease in pay (except for the time during half-full post-Covid cruises.)

[startedwithamouse]

1 hour ago, JimmyVWine said:

No crew member that I know and stay in touch with has complained about a decrease in pay (except for the time during half-full post-Covid cruises.)

Exactly.  

 

The guessing game you're responding to is out in full force today.

[memoak]

1 hour ago, JimmyVWine said:

No crew member that I know and stay in touch with has complained about a decrease in pay (except for the time during half-full post-Covid cruises.)

Same here

[ldubs]

On 5/29/2024 at 7:54 AM, whitecap said:

And how are you not understanding that I don't go to restaurants that use my "tip" as a wage booster. 

 

Your state allows tip credits towards the minimum hourly wage.  It isn't clear how you can avoid that unless you only go to non-tipped places like fast food.

 

On 5/29/2024 at 7:54 AM, whitecap said:

 

Just because the State says its ok for an employer to pay less than the minimum wage, take the employee's "tips" and use it to supplement their wage, doesn't make it right.  I tip to say thank you for great service, not be an extra employer paying a portion of their wages.  I tip my room steward for giving me good service, not to allow Princess to "pool" my money and then disperse it to whomever they want, on whatever ship they may be on, throughout the year!  Raise the price of the cruise fare by $300, pay a good wage and tell your customers that there is no tipping.  Don't tell them it is "crew appreciation" and do whatever the heck you want with it.  By the way, did you find where the chicken is? 🤔 

 

We may certainly disagree with the system, but if we provide a tip, we are contributing to someone's take home.  For cruise staff, just like restaurants, that is significant factor to employees.  It isn't clear to me that cruise lines do whatever the heck they want with the auto-gratuities.  

 

 

 

 

[MacMadame]

19 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Unless odd change, I do not leave a tip for counter service.  

I don't either. But I am being asked more and more for tips in more and more places and even I, a generous tipper, am getting fed up. I tip the people I've always tipped and leave it at that.

 

6 hours ago, startedwithamouse said:

Exactly.  

 

The guessing game you're responding to is out in full force today.

Some people are so cynical. I can be cynical but I understand how things work and that Princess would get in trouble if they did what people accuse them of with crew appreciation. I am going to assume they prefer not to get in trouble. Because I am cynical. 🤣

[FiftyOnePlus]

On 5/29/2024 at 6:01 AM, Kineticoh20 said:

Read this on Princess site....

"All of the Crew Appreciation and Service Charge payments made by all guests on all ships in our fleet are pooled, net of credit card transaction fees. The pooled funds are distributed throughout the year in the form of compensation, including bonuses, to crewmembers fleetwide who interact directly with guests and/or behind the scenes throughout every cruise, including those in the Bar, Dining, Entertainment, Housekeeping, Guest Services, Galley and Onboard Revenue areas."

What troubled me was the term compensation as opposed to tip on top of compensation. Is anyone else reading it as it's part of thier regular pay? Throughout the year? That is odd language too.

 

It's always been part of their regular pay....which is why I always tell people not to pay the Princess Grats and to always tip in cash those who impress you.

[FiftyOnePlus]

On 5/29/2024 at 12:30 PM, Interestedcruisefan said:

Don't apologise 

 

This is blatantly not what you consider would be happening with tips!

 

And you know what the staff themselves would never be  able to tell you this themselves

 

You have to find it in the smallprint

 

Basically staff tips on Princess is being used to pay staff wages 

 

Simple as that

 

And it's out in the open now

They are not tips.

They are gratuities.....different

[MacMadame]

8 hours ago, FiftyOnePlus said:

They are not tips.

They are gratuities.....different

They are not different according to Merriam-Webster:

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tip#:~:text=%3A a gift or a sum,service performed or anticipated %3A gratuity

[TRLD]

4 hours ago, MacMadame said:

They are not different according to Merriam-Webster:

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tip#:~:text=%3A a gift or a sum,service performed or anticipated %3A gratuity

Gratuity can be more expansive. It could also mean some benefits given to employees by their employer, as well as money given from customers for good service. However, for purposes of how both terms are used in terms of this discussion they are basically the same. 

[vjmatty]

On 6/2/2024 at 6:28 PM, MacMadame said:

I don't either. But I am being asked more and more for tips in more and more places and even I, a generous tipper, am getting fed up. I tip the people I've always tipped and leave it at that.

 

Some people are so cynical. I can be cynical but I understand how things work and that Princess would get in trouble if they did what people accuse them of with crew appreciation. I am going to assume they prefer not to get in trouble. Because I am cynical. 🤣

I’m much more cynical…I see counter tipping as one rung above “round up for charity” that’s been showing up on every single checkout screen lately. 

[SCX22]

6 minutes ago, vjmatty said:

I’m much more cynical…I see counter tipping as one rung above “round up for charity” that’s been showing up on every single checkout screen lately. 

 

Never do the round up for charity thing.  It's how companies donate to charity to seem charitable using your money, but they take the credit.

[vjmatty]

So for those of you comparing crew appreciation to the restaurant industry and saying servers are supposed to get tips regardless of service quality….are you suggesting that the restaurant server who 1) brought me my drink after my meal, 2) screwed up my order by serving me meat and then 3) brought a 9 ounce glass of wine when I ordered 6 is supposed to be given a full tip, because she may have given excellent service to the table next to mine?  Or are we allowed to factor in things like incompetence, rude service and/or being forgotten, ignored, etc. 

[TRLD]

15 minutes ago, vjmatty said:

So for those of you comparing crew appreciation to the restaurant industry and saying servers are supposed to get tips regardless of service quality….are you suggesting that the restaurant server who 1) brought me my drink after my meal, 2) screwed up my order by serving me meat and then 3) brought a 9 ounce glass of wine when I ordered 6 is supposed to be given a full tip, because she may have given excellent service to the table next to mine?  Or are we allowed to factor in things like incompetence, rude service and/or being forgotten, ignored, etc. 

As far as I can tell there have been few if any comments about cutting tips if service is bad.

 

There have been comments about cutting or removing CA as a matter of practice, even when service is good, as some have proposed.

 

During the over 600 days that I have spent on Princess ships I have seen very few cases of what I would consider to be poor service. Certainly a very small number compared to the number of cases of very good service.

 

If I encountered such poor service that i felt the need to remove the CA I would probably not return to that line.

 

When I do encounter poor service, I indicate the issue and the name of the employee on the survey, just as I do for those that go above and beyond.

 

One reason why I continue to cruise with Princess is over the more than 600 days I have encountered hundreds of employees performing excellent service, where as I can count the number providing bad service on both hands.

[funship freddy]

I began cruising in the mid 90’s.  It was a different world. At the end of the cruise you would get envelopes in your cabin to present on the last evening in the dining room.  There were no specialty restaurants.  You got an envelope for your room steward, your waiter and his assistant and the maitre’d. I remember vividly that the only time you ever saw the maitre’d was on the last night when they visited your table to “collect” their envelopes.  There was no mention of leaving tips for those “behind the scenes” that make your cruise special.

Along came specialty restaurants for an extra fee that included gratuity.  That was then.

Quietly the cruise lines added their 18% to specialty restaurants.

Today we are charged “gratuity” on everything.  We are paying the wages of the crew.  What a shift from when I began cruising.  And now if you want an edible steat in the dining room you have to pay $20 or more.

Face it…. they don’t pay that much for the steak.

They mask their “burden” to us.

Reduce Reduce Reduce

Charge us more.

I don’t know how you feel but I am beginning to squeal.

Your comments   ?

 

[vjmatty]

1 hour ago, TRLD said:

As far as I can tell there have been few if any comments about cutting tips if service is bad.

 

There have been comments about cutting or removing CA as a matter of practice, even when service is good, as some have proposed.

 

During the over 600 days that I have spent on Princess ships I have seen very few cases of what I would consider to be poor service. Certainly a very small number compared to the number of cases of very good service.

 

If I encountered such poor service that i felt the need to remove the CA I would probably not return to that line.

 

When I do encounter poor service, I indicate the issue and the name of the employee on the survey, just as I do for those that go above and beyond.

 

One reason why I continue to cruise with Princess is over the more than 600 days I have encountered hundreds of employees performing excellent service, where as I can count the number providing bad service on both hands.

I should have been more clear…. I was talking about restaurants. One of the posters here in the restaurant industry mentioned that tipping should not be tied to quality of service. 

[CineGraphic]

This is a big reason why we've sailed solely with Virgin Voyages for the last 2 years.

We don't have to worry about who gets what. There's nothing to pre-pay or a large bill to settle at the end of the cruise, and there's no 18% gratuity added to your bar tab either.

 

The crew gets paid the same whether the ship is full or not.

They also get free internet and laundry, and can eat in any of the dining venues.

 

It's not rocket science: Happy crew = happy customers.

 

 

[memoak]

2 minutes ago, CineGraphic said:

This is a big reason why we've sailed solely with Virgin Voyages for the last 2 years.

We don't have to worry about who gets what. There's nothing to pre-pay or a large bill to settle at the end of the cruise, and there's no 18% gratuity added to your bar tab either.

 

The crew gets paid the same whether the ship is full or not.

They also get free internet and laundry, and can eat in any of the dining venues.

 

It's not rocket science: Happy crew = happy customers.

 

 

Remember Virgin is not cheap and believe me you are paying gratuities even if they don’t say so it is built into the price. 

[CineGraphic]

Just now, memoak said:

Remember Virgin is not cheap and believe me you are paying gratuities even if they don’t say so it is built into the price. 

 

Yes, we're paying something towards gratuities as part of our fare, but it's cheaper than you think when you don't have a ton of add-ons to pay for at the end of the cruise.

It's so nice to cruise and not worry about who's getting paid and who's not. That's the last thing I want to think about while on vacation.

[TRLD]

3 hours ago, CineGraphic said:

 

Yes, we're paying something towards gratuities as part of our fare, but it's cheaper than you think when you don't have a ton of add-ons to pay for at the end of the cruise.

It's so nice to cruise and not worry about who's getting paid and who's not. That's the last thing I want to think about while on vacation.

In my over 90 cruises on various lines I never worried about who was getting paid on any of the lines, after all that is between the employer and their employers. 

 

I also do not jump to the conclusion that some here seem to that the companies are dumb enough to violate accounting regulations, employment contracts and screw over their employees. I actually wonder about the ethic of folks that think that doing so might be a normal business practice.

[PescadoAmarillo]

18 minutes ago, TRLD said:

In my over 90 cruises on various lines I never worried about who was getting paid on any of the lines, after all that is between the employer and their employers. 

 

I also do not jump to the conclusion that some here seem to that the companies are dumb enough to violate accounting regulations, employment contracts and screw over their employees. I actually wonder about the ethic of folks that think that doing so might be a normal business practice.

You’ve missed the point entirely if you think questions about accounting practices imply ethics violations. I question the accounting treatment only because many here have claimed that if people remove their CA and tip individual crew members, the “fund” used to pay the crew will run out of money and the crew will be shorted their expected wages.  As an ex-auditor, I have to assume a payable is set up for crew compensation.  How is it funded?  How can it run out of money (hint:  it can’t). And your statement (the daily amount of the service charge is subtracted before the revenue is booked and the funds credited to the pool) told me you really don’t know, so I dropped it.

 

Like you, I don’t worry about who is being paid what. I pay CA one way or another and don’t worry about what others do. And for our friends from non-tipping cultures, yes, you are paying the crew wages when you tip. It’s really that simple. Only you can decide if you can live with that or not. 

[TRLD]

49 minutes ago, PescadoAmarillo said:

You’ve missed the point entirely if you think questions about accounting practices imply ethics violations. I question the accounting treatment only because many here have claimed that if people remove their CA and tip individual crew members, the “fund” used to pay the crew will run out of money and the crew will be shorted their expected wages.  As an ex-auditor, I have to assume a payable is set up for crew compensation.  How is it funded?  How can it run out of money (hint:  it can’t). And your statement (the daily amount of the service charge is subtracted before the revenue is booked and the funds credited to the pool) told me you really don’t know, so I dropped it.

 

Like you, I don’t worry about who is being paid what. I pay CA one way or another and don’t worry about what others do. And for our friends from non-tipping cultures, yes, you are paying the crew wages when you tip. It’s really that simple. Only you can decide if you can live with that or not. 

The CA is not counted as revenue. The accounting rules are specifically set up such that companies do not over state revenue  As such the CA is subtracted prior to and is not included in revenue. It is also not included in expense lines.

 

As the IRS says in its guidance concerning tips. Tips are not included in revenue.

 

You asked where they were shown in the companies filings. As I responded they are not. 

 

In the US companies have to report tips even if they do not handle the money. The employees at US firm have to report tips and the companies have to track and report then for tax purposes. That tracking does not apply to the cruise lines.

 

As far as running out. You have an example Covid. When the cruise lines shutdown those employees stuck on board ship got salary but not the payout from the gratuity pool.

 

The pool it set up to be as stable as possible that is why they went from ship level sharing to fleet level sharing.  it would take something like covid to bring the pool to zero. Though if there was a fleetwide reduction in contributions the pool payouts would drop by about the same percentage.

 

Edited June 4 by TRLD